44-40 accuracy in a 94

[Gerry2]

I am considering a Winchester 94 in 44-40. My friends who have them all have trouble getting any accuracy from them. What is your experience with them? I am only interested in cast loads, mainly for cowboy shooting but would like to have something fairly accurate.

[KCSO]

Gerry
I only have had the opportunity to shoot one of these. The one we got shot jacketed bullets very well, but was so-so with cast. The gun had a 429 bore and the chamber was tight enough that a 430 bullet would not work. in addition most die sets expand the case mouth to 427-8 for 44-40 and if you try to seat a 430 bullet that way the case bulges off center. I have seen the same problem in the Ruger Vaquero 44-40's. It seems that modern manufacturers want to use the same bbl for 44 mag and 44-40 and they don't make the proper allowances. I made a new expander button for my dies and sized bullets to 4295, which was as large as I could go in the chamber. Then I started getting some accuracy.

I sold the gun to a condom shooter and he loves it.

[Ed Barrett]

I am considering a Winchester 94 in 44-40. My friends who have them all have trouble getting any accuracy from them. What is your experience with them? I am only interested in cast loads, mainly for cowboy shooting but would like to have something fairly accurate.

Have you considered a 92 clone instead of a 94? I know several people who have Puma 92s ,made by Rossi, in 44-40. They shoot in CAS and have very good accuracy with cast loads. I own one in 357 and it shoots cast as good as I can hold it.

[shooter575]

I have a Uberti Henry in 44-40. It shoots cast real well. I use soft lead and black powder,430 sized boolet,neck sized only.Light crimp w/ full case.No leading. Can't hit side of barn with .427 dia though

[Wayne Smith]

I'm shooting the '73 Uberti in 44-40, shooting the Holy Black and the MAV bullet. I'm on the steel @ 50yds regurlarly, haven't really shot it for groups. The steel is too much fun! Usually on the steel @ 100 yds. Oh, yeah, sized to .327. I love that huge lube groove!

[Gerry2]

Thanks for the input folks. I just bought the rifle, it was made in 1979. What weight and what diameter bullets work best? I only have a 250 gr mold at the moment.

[Buckshot]

.............Gerry , welcome to the board! Best deal before investing in a mould and size die is to slug the barrel. Seems there is some spread in likely bore/groove dimensions. Usually fatter is better on boolit size. I know Deputy Al is a 44-40 afficianado having his grandpa's old original M73 Winchester ranch rifle. I hate to quote from memory, so hopefully he'll list his experience when he returns from Las Vegas where he's trying to make some money to pay his taxes, er something.

Aren't 200-225gr slugs a common weight for the 44WCF?

................Buckshot

[Gerry2]

I am ordering the Lee 200 gr flat point mold. I have a .430 Lee sizer so I'll try that first. I'll have a friend size a few at .429 to try before ordering a .429 sizer. The hard part is the waiting to try it.

[Gerry2]

A friend gave me some ammo to try this afternoon. His were 115 ge SWC sized .430. The sights were way off but I got groups slightly over 1 inch at about 40 yds. I'm happy!

[9.3X62AL]

Gerry--

It looks like things are starting well for you!

I use boolits sized at .429" in my 1897-vintage '73. The old girl is pretty sensitive to variables--bullet hardness and diameter in particular. She DOESN'T seem to like the harder alloys as much as half-and-half Taracorp and pure lead. I wish I had some 1:20 alloy to try.

If all the variables stay correct--and ya hold yer mouth just right--that 107 year old hussy will group pretty well with 200 grain flatnoses and 13.5 grains of 2400. This rifle is still "a work in progress", and as my great-grandfather ascertained it is sufficiently accurate for deer and black bear to 75 yards or so in the environment he used it within--the San Bernardino Mountains/north slope, where a 50 yard shot is something of a reach.

Maybe W30WCF will weigh in here with some load info. He is a real, live encyclopedia on this caliber and his assistance has taken me a couple notches higher with this project.

[drinks]

I have a '92, made in 1910, chamber is standard or small, barrel is .429, factory .426 jacketed are about a paper plate size at 100yd.
I got 2" at 25yd with ,427 cast. .429 cast will not chamber, I made a sizer to .428, put 4 in 1" at 50 yd with a called shot 1" high.
All using the Lee 240swc gc , 9gr Herco, 1200 fps, ww's with 2% Tin.
Don

[Wayne Smith]

Gerry

I have the Lee 200 gr fp which I tumble lube with Lee lizuid Alox. I also have the MAV bullet that I soft lube and size to .427" and load with BP. If you would like to try shooting that rifle as intended PM me and I'll send you some of the MAV bullets. I'll send them either as cast or sized and lubed, but be aware that I use a soft lube and it might not survive the trip. If they arrive sized and unlubed you'll have to lube them.

Making PB lube is easy, just 50/50 beeswax and crisco with a table spoon or so of Murphy's oil soap is what I use. If it's too soft, add more beeswax, if to hard add more crisco. Pan lubing is equally easy.

[Four Fingers of Death]

For cowboy action, I wouldn't go out of my way to get a 1894 or a 44/40 (although I actually shoot a 44/40 in 1866, when it chooses to go off that is).

1894s in 44/40 are very common in Australia as one of our states has silly gun laws some years ago and the velocity limits made any thing other than the 44/40 illegal unless you were a licensed dealer, crocidile or buffalo shooter or cashed up yankee tourist. You could get a dealers license by walking into a Police station, showing your license and waiting while they rang around to make sure you weren't a bad guy and then you could buy anything, pistols, machine guns, military hardware, etc). Winchester made special orders for the territory and for a while these were the best selling rifle there and were not available anywhere else. I have a lot of mates who use these with great succes pig hunting, where the action starts when you leap off the motorcycle at the tank (waterhole), and rip off a magazine's worth while the pigs scatter.

The 1894s get a panning from cowboy shooters, because the action was designed for the longer rifle cartridges. I have been to about a dozen cowboy action weekend shoots and have the only rifles I have seen work at every meet were the Rossi/Pumas 1892s and the 1894s. Marlins are generally fine, but last weekend, three of them had feeding problems. Original 1892s seem to play up occasionally, but that is to be expected with an old rifle. Mind you I have never seen an old 1894 on the line.

If it is cheap I'd think about it and try and get it on loan for a cowboy shoot, or just cycle a few boxes or rounds plinking quickly to see how it goes. If its not real cheap I'd give it a miss.

The main trouble I have seen with people shooting the 44/40 is loading it beyond the design parameters. They see that it is bigger than a 44Mag and try and get her percolating. Bad move! 22Hornets and 44/40s require a more relaxed aproach to shooting and are both very rewarding.

Good luck. PS I have never seen a 73 being shot in cowboy Australia. Several brass guns, all 1866s, never seen a Henry(Uberti or original I mean). Most seem to shoot sissy guns now (38/357).

[drinks]

In the 1880's, Winchester and others loaded the .44-40 at 1600fps or more in factory loads, with the 200gr rfn.
I have a 1910 '92, good shape, and am loading 230swchp gc 's at 1650 fps and 310gr rfn gc's 1300 fps with no signs of over presure, I mike each case after shooting and nothing has yet shown more than .0003" expansion of the body 1/8" above the rim.
Don ;D

[Gerry2]

I have a lot of 250 gr boolits left over from a .44 mag I once had. I would like to try them in the 44-40 but can't find any data for that weight. Does anyone have data for Unique, 700X, or IMR4227?

[9.3X62AL]

I have used only 200 grain-class boolits in my '73, a lot of Lee 200 FN and now a bunch of similar boolits that Buckshot gave me. My rifle has the old 1-38" twist, and at the velocities possible in that old action that started life none too stalwart anyway--the longer 240 grainers didn't shoot worth beans. The Lees and the Buckshot donations pretty much shoot where the sights look, so I leave well enough alone.

The challenge to this caliber for me is to find a boolit that has a crimp groove properly located to set OAL correctly. The Lee design has a faint groove, and with judicious attention this can be used successfully. The Buckshot boolits have no such attribute, and I'm casting about for a powder that gives 100% density/column support to the boolit like black powder does in this caliber, and similar pressures. W30WCF has indicated that RE-7 does this at roughly the 24-25 grain level, and I have yet to try it out.

The 44-40 WCF is a challenge to reload for, to sum it up. Cases are weak and thin, and many chambers do not conform closely to cartridge dimensions. If I had not inherited the rifle, I doubt that I would have undertaken to assemble rounds in this caliber--or bought a rifle or revolver so chambered. Now that I'm in the water with the project, I've considered a SAA clone of some kind to match up with the old carbine--a Uberti or similar wheeler.

[drinks]

Gerry;
If you have a '92 in good shape, the following should do ok.
22gr IMR 4227 and 20gr H110 work fine in my '92 with 240 and 310gr cast bullets, but start out a little lighter, of course.
Don

[fourarmed]

I'm in the same boat as Deputy Al. I have an heirloom 73. I had mine relined with what was supposed to be a .428 groove diam. bore. It is larger than that by several thou. I'm shooting the Lee 200 as cast. I have used 17.5 of 4227 and 23 of Re-7. The Re-7 load shot best with Winchester LR primers at 1300 fps. The same load with Fed LP primers ran about 1150 and was all over the paper. Some rounds chamber easily, and some are a bit tight. That may be due to crimp variables. Maybe a bullet with a bigger crimp groove would help.

I have read that a filler of something like Grex will ameliorate the problem of undersize bullets somewhat. This was with a load of 17/4227 as I recall. This appeared in Scoville's column of Rifle or Handloader a couple of years ago.

[woody1]

I have a lot of 250 gr boolits left over from a .44 mag I once had. I would like to try them in the 44-40 but can't find any data for that weight. Does anyone have data for Unique, 700X, or IMR4227?
Gerry2, FWIW the Lyman 43rd lists 6.0 - 9.1 gr. Unique with 250 gr. lead. Vel. 700 - 920. These are handgun loads and velocities. I have not used these loads. Regards, Woody

[Gerry2]

Thanks folks. I'll try those loads when my dies arrive.

[Gerry2]

I just looked in my new Lyman 3rd Edition Pistol & Revolver Handbook. The only cast loads listed for the 44-40 are for 200 gr & 205 gr. You would expect more in a book that size that is dedicated only to handguns.

[KCSO]

Gerry
I think that is because the 44-40 is used so much in guns that are so fussy on OAL. I have used up to 240 grain bullets in some of my 44-40's but if you ever get an overlong bullet mixed up and it sticks in your 73 Winchester you will regret your lapse, let alone lend your 73 to your brother and he fills it with revolver loads. If you shoot black like I do the 200's are about all you can push to a decent velocity. I don't think the manuals, especially Lyman want to encourage experimentation in any form. Liability you know.

[gregg]

I have used the 240 gr bullets with 6.0 - 9.1 gr. Unique and they work well.
I have used Grex type of filler. Did not work for me like it did for Scoville
BUT
I use the filler so the bullet does not get pushed into the case because of no
crimping groove. I have a Rossi 92 with a .430 barrel. What I have read is
that alot of the old winchesters had .430 to .434 + sized barrels. But then
black powder would bump the bullets up to size. My Rossi don't seem to
like plain based bullets??? Have a old GC 44 bullet from Lyman that shows
it may be the one. Not my best shooting rifle but it a hoot. I know that
there got to be a load it will love.

[Four Fingers of Death]

In the 1880's, Winchester and others loaded the .44-40 at 1600fps or more in factory loads, with the 200gr rfn.
I have a 1910 '92, good shape, and am loading 230swchp gc 's at 1650 fps and 310gr rfn gc's 1300 fps with no signs of over presure, I mike each case after shooting and nothing has yet shown more than .0003" expansion of the body 1/8" above the rim.
Don ;D

The guys I am talking about are trying to get better than 44Mag performance. They see the bigger case and as I said try and get it percolating. The cartridge will perform at these levels, but the brass is not up to the job.

The pigs don't seem to know the difference, but the owners can't help themselves. One rifle, a 94 in 44/40 with a Williams Foolproof sight which was in excellent condition was traded through a few shooters at work and they all had trouble. One guy who has a 450 acre farm breeding cattle (ranch I suppose) 16 miles out of town came and saw me about it. he is a very experienced shooter, but has never had anything to do with leverguns or pistol cartridges. He wanted to use it off his quad bike on pigs as he was running out of ammo in his bolt gun and still had pigs to shoot when he encountered a bunch of them.

I told him about the problem with the cases when they were loaded to foolish levels. He bought the gun, bought about 200 new cases I had lying about from a previous purchase with which I threw in about five hundred lead boolits which I had kicking about (always trying to recruit casters). He used a sensible approach and came back about two months later looking for more boolits.

I tried the rifle one day when I visited his farm (ranch really rolls off the tongue funny if you are an aussie) and the loads seemed a lot stouter than standard, but he was getting good case life. Sensible performance, satisfying results. There are a lot of dead pigs around Bathurst who fell in front of that 94 which fired a funny old cartridge.

Like I said, I wouldn't go out of my way to buy a 44/40, the 44Mags are so much easier, but they perform fine within sensible parameters.

Mick.

[waksupi]

I can tell you, if any should have a brass frame Henry, you can stretch the frame pretty easy if you try to hot rod the .44-40 cartidge in them.

[drinks]

For those of us who are having problems with crimping .44-40 cases, I now have a Lee Factory Crimp die, the collet type, this will put a good, strong and narrow 4 segment crimp with or without a crimp groove or cannelure on the bullet and there is no chance of crumpling the case neck.
Don :D

[Four Fingers of Death]

My 44WCF as I like to call it, or 44/40 is determed to fight to the death before it works well. I bought some commercial boolits (500x) as I'm travelleing around the state with work and don't have my casting gear handy. Durned if they ain't too bluudy long. Sheeeeeeeeeeeooot! I'm having trouble with this here ornery lump of brass, steel and wood (Uberti 1866). I will have to decide if I am ready to butcher my 44/40 brass by shortening it until I can feed these suckers. Boy, the shine has gone off this piece. It has let me down on two weekend away cowboy shoots so far, it's treading on thin ice I can tell you. The only thing that has saved it is the fact that I don't believe in dumping my problems on other folks. I'll get it working before I sell it.

I saw on another post that trimming the cases to suit the crimp groove is an option. Another durned drive home to pick up my case trimmer (300 mile round trip with 100 miles of dirt). If this wasn't such a prurty rifle I'd of probably taken to it with the gas axe before this!

I suppose these things are character building.

Mick.

[Scrounger]

My 44WCF as I like to call it, or 44/40 is determed to fight to the death before it works well. I bought some commercial boolits (500x) as I'm travelleing around the state with work and don't have my casting gear handy. Durned if they ain't too bluudy long. Sheeeeeeeeeeeooot! I'm having trouble with this here ornery lump of brass, steel and wood (Uberti 1866). I will have to decide if I am ready to butcher my 44/40 brass by shortening it until I can feed these suckers. Boy, the shine has gone off this piece. It has let me down on two weekend away cowboy shoots so far, it's treading on thin ice I can tell you. The only thing that has saved it is the fact that I don't believe in dumping my problems on other folks. I'll get it working before I sell it.

I saw on another post that trimming the cases to suit the crimp groove is an option. Another durned drive home to pick up my case trimmer (300 mile round trip with 100 miles of dirt). If this wasn't such a prurty rifle I'd of probably taken to it with the gas axe before this!

I suppose these things are character building.

Mick.

Mick, a gentleman sent me a magazine reprint on reworking the Marlin .45-70, making several improvements, among which was making it feed longer cartridges. I think the 1894 is close enough to the '95 that you can learn something from it. I can send it to you as an attachment on an email if you like (Warning! It is 1.69 Mb), or I can (I think) put it on a CD along with another couple of Marlin fix-it articles and mail that to you.

[zzmoore]

I do not own a 94 in that caliber. Some buddies have them and I have shot theirs. No real problems. They jsut don't seem to cycle as smooth (after I took it apart 4 times and did all sorts of spring cutting, fixing and stoning. maybe I got a bad one.) as my Rossi or the other Rossi's that I have shot. With a 200g bullet I shoot pretty good with 8.5 grains of Unique or 16 grains of IMR 4227.