Do I need to lube these 38 Special WC boolits?

[El_Guapo]

A friend was moving out of state and offered me his hoard of lead ingots and what-not so he didn't have to haul them with him. In the group of stuff what I was very pleased to have been given was a box of WINCHESTER 38 SPECIAL 148 LEAD COMPONENT bullets. The box says there are 2,840 of them. They are swaged lead hollow base wadcutters. I'm hoping to use a load of 4.0 gn AA#5 which is favorite go-to powder. I'm looking at the bullets and there doesn't appear to be a lubricant on them. Do I need to lube them somehow?

[45_Colt]

Since they are a factory boolit, there should be a lube of some nature already on them. Rub a few between your fingers and feel if they are slippery.

45_Colt

[45DUDE]

Don't push a hb much over 750 fps. You can always heat the boolits and give a coat of alox. 3D and Star made hbwc's the lube was hard to see. I have seen some dry lubed. Hornady had a dry lube. Could you post a photo?

[dondiego]

I acquired a box of 2000 Remington swaged bullets that appeared unlubed so I just used liquid Alox on them and kept my velocity at around 800 FPS. I wish I could find a couple more boxes of those!

[725]

Ben's Liquid Lube should be just dandy with those.

[Larry Gibson]

"I'm hoping to use a load of 4.0 gn AA#5"

That is going to be too much for a HBWC as mentioned. Classic 38 SPL load for them is 2.7/2.8 gr of Bullseye or 231.

They should already have a wax lube on them. If not, then a very light coat of LLA will do nicely.

[Outpost75]

The lube on factory Winchester wadcutters was Johnson Wax Draw 100, replaced in the 1980s by Johnson 700, the same material as Lee Case Lube. A white, wax-water emulsion which dries clear. Also used on Winchester .22 rimfire ammunition.

As Larry stated, the traditional charge for target shooting in .38 Special was 2.7-2.8 grains of Bullseye or 231, with the exact charge being adjusted at the loading machine to obtain 770+/-25 fps from the 6-inch solid industrial test barrel. When flush seated in .357 brass you can increase the charge to 3.2 grains of Bullseye or 3.5 grains of 231.

[El_Guapo]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230805/57450c0c6b155d827656a26dd4841e3c.jpg
This took a while to post cuz I’m a posting noob. I rubbed a few bullets on a paper towel but nothing appeared to come off.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[uscra112]

The lube on factory Winchester wadcutters was Johnson Wax Draw 100, replaced in the 1980s by Johnson 700, the same material as Lee Case Lube. A white, wax-water emulsion which dries clear.

Being an old manufacturing guy, I'm curious about how that was applied to loose bullets. Would simply tumbling them in a basket have worked?

[45DUDE]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230805/57450c0c6b155d827656a26dd4841e3c.jpg
This took a while to post cuz I’m a posting noob. I rubbed a few bullets on a paper towel but nothing appeared to come off.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Those are very high quality hbwc's and the base is thicker than some. They will probably stand 850 fps. I would lube them on one of my 450's. Those need to belong to a bullseye shooter. Pan lube will work. You can load a cylinder full like they are. If they lead they need lubing. They look dry to me. Let us know. Those look like they were made for a revolver because they have a crimp groove. You can seat flush also.

[stubshaft]

I had some old wadcutters that were just tumbled in Mica and did not appear to be lubed at all. I would load some up and see if they do lead, then go from there.

[Outpost75]

Being an old manufacturing guy, I'm curious about how that was applied to loose bullets. Would simply tumbling them in a basket have worked?

Lead wire slugs cut to length pre-formed and bled to weight, partially forming the base cavity and squaring nose in a modified bolt header, about 600 pcs/minute.

Pre-formed slugs are washed in the water-based lube and fed wet into form die which finishes base cavity, and shapes nose button. Knurling is done on sizing machine after lube has been forced hot air dried. Final size after knurling distributes any excess lube on surface into grooves.

[reddog81]

Lead wire slugs cut to length pre-formed and bled to weight, partially forming the base cavity and squaring nose in a modified bolt header, about 600 pcs/minute.

Pre-formed slugs are washed in the water-based lube and fed wet into form die which finishes base cavity, and shapes nose button. Knurling is done on sizing machine after lube has been forced hot air dried. Final size after knurling distributes any excess lube on surface into grooves.

NICE!

Any idea if Winchester ever sells their bullets as components any more? In the 10 years I've been reloading, I've seen Speer and Hornady for sale. Looking online it seems like Winchester still sells loaded 148 grain WC ammo, at least occasionally...

[uscra112]

600 a minute - moving right along there! Had no idea a header could go that fast. And making the process lubricant be the final finish lube. Love it!

[Outpost75]

600 a minute - moving right along there! Had no idea a header could go that fast. And making the process lubricant be the final finish lube. Love it!

Single-blow header can run that fast. Alberts Bullets in NJ ran Hitachi double blow headers to produce finshed, smooth-sided bullets at about half that rate. Their bullets were not grooved, but rotating drum tumbled about 100 pounds at a time in graphite, which combined nicely with the wax. Remington's lube process was similar, but using a knurled bullet.

[El_Guapo]

My friend also gave me a ziplock bag with about 100 loose and very similar HBWC's which had graphite lube on them. I expected to see the whole case like that but no. My friend got them from somebody he knew but never used them and then passed them on to me. Maybe the prior reloader lubed them with graphite????

[Outpost75]

Remington HBWCs were an emulsion of Japan wax and graphite since the 1920s.

[Tall]

I shot 148 grain plated WC's from Berry yesterday over a load of 4.2 grains of Unique (Hercules). Very clean burning and very accurate. This is what 50 rounds looks like:

[El_Guapo]

they were made for a revolver because they have a crimp groove. You can seat flush also.
That first cannelure ring can be used as a crimp groove? I had not idea. I will try both, crimp groove and flush. As soon as my order of Bullseye arrives! Thanks for the info.

[45DUDE]

I have three 38 special autos. I use 3.1 of Bullseye seated flush for an accurate load but mine are Colt 1911's which prefer that high charge. A Smith 52 uses 2.7 grains seated flat. Seated in the crimp groove with a revolver I would go 3.2 with Bullseye. I have another 1961 N.M.Colt that likes 2.5 of Bullseye. Let us know the results. I would use a roll crimp die and barely roll crimp seated flush. I have a taper crimp die but have learned how to make the roll crimp die do as good. I have a 19-3 long barrel and a 586 that loves that design on the bench.

[El_Guapo]

Good to know. Thanks!