Need help w NOE expander

[Jtarm]

I cast the Accurate 40-224H for my GP100 10mm

I started sizing to to .403 (previously.402) after discovering two chambers were .403 and had @DougGuy open them up.

With the factory Hornady expander, I couldn’t get the .403 bullets to seat without damage. So I ordered one of NOEs .401-.405 expander plugs with a Lee universal die.

All set.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230805/30cfd5f35d99fe5ef9fbd0fe96dd4fb7.jpg


The NOE plug has two shoulders on it, the first where it goes from .401-.405. Is the second one supposed to flare the case mouth?

My problem is, I still can’t get the bullets started straight enough to seat without damage, unless I run the expander deep enough for the case mouth to hit that second shoulder for a bit of flare.

This bullet has an extremely long nose to crimp and doesn’t seat very deeply. When I run the expander deep enough so I can get it started by hand, I can seat it almost to the crimp groove with just thumb pressure. That can’t be good.

I don’t have this problem with my NOE .38/357 expander. I just run it deep enough so I can hand seat the bullet to the first driving band. The case mouth never gets close to that second shoulder.

Need help!

[Minerat]

The second flares the case as you suspect. The first is the expanded size for the case. If you go too deep you will end up with a stuck case even using imperial sizing wax. I know from experience and you will destroy the case getting it off. You just want to kiss that second shoulder so you can seat the boolit square. I then use a slight crimp to get rid of the flare. I don't use a long for caliber boolit on any of my pistol boolits since they usually need taper crimps. On revolvers that use a roll crimp the longer Boolit does not present a problem.

[lar45]

If it was me, I'd start with the smallest size in your set of expanders and see how it works.
If you can't get the bullet seated without damage, then try the next size up.
It should take more than thumb pressure to seat your bullets.
Also make sure your seating stem fits the profile of the bullet nose so it holds it in alignment as it's seated.

[Jtarm]

If it was me, I'd start with the smallest size in your set of expanders and see how it works.
If you can't get the bullet seated without damage, then try the next size up.
It should take more than thumb pressure to seat your bullets.
Also make sure your seating stem fits the profile of the bullet nose so it holds it in alignment as it's seated.

The seater stem is for a full wadcutter.

The nose profile would be best described as an RNFP bordering on a WFN.

[garandsrus]

I don’t think you should ever need to hit the second shoulder. When using an expander die, the case isn’t flaired. It doesn’t need to be since the larger diameter allows the bullet to completely enter the case. Added: the second step only lets the bullet go in a little ways, less than 1/8”. When I use a gas checked bullet, I expand the bullet deep enough that the gas check is in the case.

I believe the problem you are having is that the step in the die isn’t large enough. You are getting some brass spring back and while the die is .405, the case mouth is probably .403, which is too small for your bullets.

[Jtarm]

I don’t think you should ever need to hit the second shoulder. When using an expander die, the case isn’t flaired. It doesn’t need to be since the larger diameter allows the bullet to completely enter the case.

I believe the problem you are having is that the step in the die isn’t large enough. You are getting some brass spring back and while the die is .405, the case mouth is probably .403, which is too small for your bullets.

That’s what I would think (not having to hit the 2nd shoulder.). I don’t have to do that with other dies/calibers.

With .38 wadcutters sized .359, I run a .357-.361 expander, hitting the first shoulder and going just deep enough that I can hand-seat just ahead of the bottom driving band. Then I can hand seat to that depth and everything’s straight.

The .405 diameter is sufficient, I just can’t get the base enough past the mouth to get it straight.

[Minerat]

it is actually a 405-401 the 401 is the expander so your .403 sized bullet is .002 over and will shave without using a flare. Here is a thread discussing how they work. See post #8 on shaving. I hope this helps.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?303063-Can-someone-explain-NOE-expander-plugs-and-dimensions

[Jtarm]

Thanks for the link, that clears it up.

Looks like .405-.401 is a little too large for my boolits.

I order the two next smaller sizes.,

[Bazoo]

You can shorten your expander plug to the length you need.

[slughammer]

..... The .405 diameter is sufficient, I just can’t get the base enough past the mouth to get it straight.

It really doesn't sound that way. The first section of the expander is .401 dia x about .300-.400 long. The second section is .405 x about .100 long. Using only 1/2 - 2/3 the length of this second section should be sufficient to get your boolit started straight. (Based on experience of making several M dies and setting them up.).

If the .405 section is not expanding your brass to a large enough diameter you'll need .406-.407 in that section, not smaller.

Note: .405 would be the diameter I would shoot for if I was making a die. I'd get a micrometer out and double-check your boolit and expander diameters. Don't trust the advertised sizes.

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[garandsrus]

it is actually a 405-401 the 401 is the expander so your .403 sized bullet is .002 over and will shave without using a flare. Here is a thread discussing how they work. See post #8 on shaving. I hope this helps.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?303063-Can-someone-explain-NOE-expander-plugs-and-dimensions

That’s not the way these work…. The post above this is correct. The smaller diameter should be .002 or so less than the bullet diameter and is how much neck tension you will have on the bullet. The next larger portion should be .003 or so bigger than your bullet and allows the bullet to be started into the case without shaving. Any additional steps are irrelevant.

If the .405 diameter allows the bullet to enter the case, you should be all set. The bullet will straighten itself a little as it is seated. I expand until a bullet will stay in the case if it is turned upside down. If yours doesn’t stay, expand a little deeper. You could also try reducing the diameter of the second step with fine sandpaper while it is turning in a drill.

I also have made a number of M type dies and powder funnels for Dillon presses.

[Jtarm]

It really doesn't sound that way. The first section of the expander is .401 dia x about .300-.400 long. The second section is .405 x about .100 long. Using only 1/2 - 2/3 the length of this second section should be sufficient to get your boolit started straight. (Based on experience of making several M dies and setting them up.).

If the .405 section is not expanding your brass to a large enough diameter you'll need .406-.407 in that section, not smaller.

Note: .405 would be the diameter I would shoot for if I was making a die. I'd get a micrometer out and double-check your boolit and expander diameters. Don't trust the advertised sizes.

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Ok, let’s try this again:

The way I assumed these are supposed to work is to run the the large diameter just deep enough into the case that it can be started straight with just finger pressure, not touching the second shoulder.

In .38/.357, this works for me. I run the large diameter (first shoulder) so I can hand-seat the rear driving band. All is good.

With the .405-.401, I can’t get the bullet past the edge of the case mouth unless I run it all the way to the second shoulder to put a very slight flare on the mouth, in addition to the large diameter. Once I do that, I can get the base of the bullet past the mouth, but I can press it in almost to full seating depth with just my thumb. That tells me it’s too large.

A .404-.400 plug is on the way. I’ll see if that works better.

[garandsrus]

You are trying to set up the expander correctly. You perfectly described the problem of the second diameter not being big enough for your brass and bullet. The correct solution is the same smaller diameter that you have, and a larger diameter after the first step by probably .002.

The expander you have will work correctly with a jacketed bullet, but not cast. The reason is that the jacketed bullet is a few .001 smaller so it slides into the case with the second diameter.

You also described the situation where the case was over expanded because you ran the expander too deeply into the case. The case no longer holds the bullet. What you ordered won’t work and will be workse than what you currently have.

[slughammer]

Ok, let’s try this again:

The way I assumed these are supposed to work is to run the large diameter just deep enough into the case that it can be started straight with just finger pressure, not touching the second shoulder.

...... but I can press it in almost to full seating depth with just my thumb. That tells me it’s too large.

A .404-.402 plug is on the way. I’ll see if that works better.

Yes, that's how this type of expander works for me. My way of describing it is that a regular flair allows the bullet to tilt to one side of that flair. An M- die style expander allows the bullet to sit straight. This speeds up my boolit placement onto the case mouth. Helping for both single stage or progressive reloading.

You're a reloader. You should have a 6" caliper and maybe even a 0-1" micrometer. Measure your sized boolits and both diameters on the NOE expander. You should find the reason you can thumb seat the boolits. Please report these three measurements.

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