The Buffalo Bore Hard Cast Boolit .25 ACP SWCFN loads.

[Captain O]

These 60-grain flat nosed, hard cast loads are clocking at about 870 fps from a Beretta Model 21A. This load makes the .25 ACP a force to be reckoned with at "bad breath" ranges. (I saw these results on YouTube).

Questions? Comments?

[rintinglen]

There is an aphorism about answers to unasked questions. IIRC, that calculates to about 98 foot pounds, better than a factory standard 50 grainer at ~750 fps, but still not all that and a bag of chips. I suspect that a cartridge generating 33% more energy would increase the wear and tear markedly.

[pettypace]

https://rewebster.org/pics/BB25acp.png

[Texas by God]

There are probably quite a few folks in the cemetery who might have thought that the .25 was “insufficient”.
Even more so the .22 LR.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rintinglen]

The only first hand information that I have results from a shooting that took place in 1983 outside a Hispanic bar in Wilmington, CA. An "Undocumented Alien" had got in a confrontation with another person of questionable immigration status. When they "stepped outside" the second fellow produced a .25 and proceeded to fire 7 shots at our victim. He had attempted to hide behind a telephone pole, but had been shot in the right hand, the right wrist, the right side, the right leg and the right ankle. When I arrived on scene, the victim was limping around in circles, cradling his wounded right arm with his left arm, and sobbing and sniffing. With each step, blood squelched up out of his sneaker and dribbled on the ground. His assailant reportedly had fled back to Mexico, or so I was later informed.

I would not want to be shot with anything, but I must be shot, I would rather be shot with a 25 than anything else, save maybe one of those dinky 22 Short pistols Beretta used to make. I consider them to be strictly an "onion field" gun, small enough to be easily deeply-concealed, and used as a last resort when ones primary weapon has been taken or run dry. But I would rather have a bigger gun.

[Jtarm]

They must be getting bored up there in Idaho.

[HWooldridge]

Jeff Cooper once wrote that he'd rather rely on his hands than a .25 ACP. Might be apocryphal but I can see him saying it.

[FergusonTO35]

There are probably quite a few folks in the cemetery who might have thought that the .25 was “insufficient”.
Even more so the .22 LR.

The mere sight of a gun has a better than 50% chance of making a bad guy reconsider his ways, and I imagine even a non-fatal wound would do the same. Plenty of determined assailants continue to fight even after being thoroughly ventilated with the latest and greatest 9mm, .40, and .357 JHP's. If all you have is a .25 and it is reliable and you shoot it well, then you are way ahead of someone who only has their fists.

[david s]

I believe Mr. Cooper said he would rather have a hatchet instead of the .25 ACP.

[Jtarm]

The mere sight of a gun has a better than 50% chance of making a bad guy reconsider his ways.

Yeah, but what about the sight of a .25 auto?

[steve urquell]

If you shoot someone with a .25ACP (and they find out about it) they will be very angry with you.

[billmc2]

I have a friend that was shot with a .25 ACP. He's been carrying the bullet around inside for over 30 years now. He was shot in the back and the bullet stopped just short of his heart. It was close enough to the heart that the doctors did not want to operate. They felt it was safer to leave the bullet in him than to open him up. He says people still ask him about it when he gets X-rays.

[steve urquell]

I have a friend that was shot with a .25 ACP. He's been carrying the bullet around inside for over 30 years now. He was shot in the back and the bullet stopped just short of his heart. It was close enough to the heart that the doctors did not want to operate. They felt it was safer to leave the bullet in him than to open him up. He says people still ask him about it when he gets X-rays.

I always laugh when I watch movie scenes where they have to get that bullet out and start digging at the patient causing 50X more damage than the bullet caused. I work in a hospital and routinely see GSWs and they typically leave the bullet in if it's not causing problems.

[Dutchman]

I know two people who were shot with a .25 acp. One was a co-worker and the other was my father. Both were 2 shots to the abdomen and both persons were down and out as a result. I never got the real story from my father as he wasn't much of a story teller but pretty sure it was in Juarez across from Fort Bliss where he was stationed at the time, circa 1929-30.

Dutch

[FergusonTO35]

Yeah, but what about the sight of a .25 auto?

I'm not pretending to be an expert here, but I imagine most people don't want to get shot with anything. Remember, handgun wounds always produce instant death on TV and movies. As Rintinglen points out, the .25 was enough to put the target out of action so the shooter could escape. I consider .32 Auto or Aguila Interceptor .22 LR to be my minimum carry cartridge, but I wouldn't hesitate to carry a .25 if it was all I had.

[HWooldridge]

I'm not pretending to be an expert here, but I imagine most people don't want to get shot with anything. Remember, handgun wounds always produce instant death on TV and movies. As Rintinglen points out, the .25 was enough to put the target out of action so the shooter could escape. I consider .32 Auto or Aguila Interceptor .22 LR to be my minimum carry cartridge, but I wouldn't hesitate to carry a .25 if it was all I had.

I'd rather have a .22 LR or .22 Magnum - I think either would be better than a .25 ACP, and cheaper practice to boot.

[FergusonTO35]

I'd rather have a .22 LR or .22 Magnum - I think either would be better than a .25 ACP, and cheaper practice to boot.

Agree with you there! Perhaps the biggest problem for the .25 is that most ammo is way watered down because of all the cheap and/or old guns made in this cartridge. I've read that some loads can be as much as 200 fps slower than the nominal 750 fps. Every chronograph test I've read shows a wide variety of velocities produced by factory loads.

[308w]

Years and years ago, An old seasoned country deputy sheriff was called to a disturbance at the local watering hole.
He went in and in the process of figuring out who he was going to haul to the jail house someone pulled a 25 and pointed it at him.
He looked them in the eye, walked up to them and put his finger over the end of the barrel and said, don't point that at me, if you was
to shoot me I would most likely get mad and you wouldn't want to see me mad.

Not the smartest option in my book but it worked that night.

[georgerkahn]

These 60-grain flat nosed, hard cast loads are clocking at about 870 fps from a Beretta Model 21A. This load makes the .25 ACP a force to be reckoned with at "bad breath" ranges. (I saw these results on YouTube).

Questions? Comments?

I'm a bit confused... I own a few Beretta Pocket pistols, and their .22 SHORT, called the Minx, is Model 950. The Model 21 is their .25ACP Bobcat (current model) as is the Jetfiire Model 950BS. The Model 21A is their .22 long rifle model. 316865
Perhaps someone made a "typo" vis stating the Model 21A as a .25ACP?
Regardless, I have the .22 short, .22 long rifle, and .25acp versions which include the "old" .25ACP: their model 418. In all calibres I have found them ('specially the .22 short Minxes) to be rather particular vis the ammo one wishes to fire in it. While their action is kind of neat (and then some!), in ALL loadable calibres there appears to be a rather small window to insure reliable, consistant functioning.
As writ, I have two Beretta pocket pistols in .25acp and I doubt (may just "me"?) if I'd ever even think of loading that Buffalo Bore in either of mine.
geo

[Captain O]

Agree with you there! Perhaps the biggest problem for the .25 is that most ammo is way watered down because of all the cheap and/or old guns made in this cartridge. I've read that some loads can be as much as 200 fps slower than the nominal 750 fps. Every chronograph test I've read shows a wide variety of velocities produced by factory loads.

With the BB loads, the .25 is more reliable (because it is a Centerfire cartridge) and can still out-penetrate the .22 Long Rifle Cartridge. (The .22 WMR seems just as expensive as the .25).

Remember: The rimfire cartridges are far more prone to misfires or "duds" than the .25 ACP. This is just a fact of life.

[gwpercle]

Do Not believe everything you see on You Tube ...
It is a fact that posts on You Tube are not required to be real facts or the truth .
You are allowed to post anything and everything you want .

I could post the new fact that the Moon is made of Green Cheese and it will accepted as truth ... but we all know the Moon is made of Blue Cheese ...
So don't go there for facts ... show me a study by Buffalo Bore ...then lets talk about it .
Gary

[Captain O]

If you shoot someone with a .25ACP (and they find out about it) they will be very angry with you.

I'll bet that you would not want to carry around a .25 ACP inside your body. If it makes it to your pericardium, you would have a real hard time discussing it with St. Peter.

[HWooldridge]

I don’t want to get shot with any caliber. I’ve been stabbed twice in street fights and that was bad enough (fortunately, neither incident was too serious - lots of peroxide and bandaids were enough). Still no fun…

[Bigslug]

So Buffalo Bore has an "enhanced" .25 Auto load. Isn't that a little like putting a nitrous injector in a Geo Metro?

[georgerkahn]

Do Not believe everything you see on You Tube ...
It is a fact that posts on You Tube are not required to be real facts or the truth .
You are allowed to post anything and everything you want .

I could post the new fact that the Moon is made of Green Cheese and it will accepted as truth ... but we all know the Moon is made of Blue Cheese ...
So don't go there for facts ... show me a study by Buffalo Bore ...then lets talk about it .
Gary

Thank you, gwpercle! I could not have said it better!!!
geo

[FergusonTO35]

With the BB loads, the .25 is more reliable (because it is a Centerfire cartridge) and can still out-penetrate the .22 Long Rifle Cartridge. (The .22 WMR seems just as expensive as the .25).

Remember: The rimfire cartridges are far more prone to misfires or "duds" than the .25 ACP. This is just a fact of life.

Aguila Interceptors have been centerfire reliable in my Ruger LCP II ever since I bought the pistol, and clock an actual 1000 fps out of that short barrel. In terms of FPE that is actually a little more than the BB FMJ rounds. The LCP holds 10 rounds whereas most .25's hold 6. I agree that the BB rounds are the way to go for a sub .32 pocket gun, as they should be since they cost over 10x as much. If you can afford to pay $1.57 a round and buy more than one box a year, you can probably afford to buy an LCP or Kel-Tec P32 for which bog standard FMJ still offers more power.

[Captain O]

If you can find a new Kel-Tec P.32 for sale, BUY IT!

GOOD LUCK!

[WRideout]

I acquired an Armi Galesi 25 auto from a friend who has since gone to his reward. The first load I tried in it was the Lyman 252406 over 1.4 gr Unique. It works fine, and I never felt a need to change. I considered it as a CCW, but now that I have a 380 auto, that will be my carry gun. Still and all, I can't think of a good reason to hot rod the 25 auto. It was not designed for that, and the stars would have to be aligned to achieve superior effects on target, given short barrel, bad sights, etc.

Wayne

[35 Rem]

As the saying goes, a 25 ACP in your hand would beat nothing in the event you need it BUT why would you ever get to the point where a 25 ACP was what you chose? The Ruger LCP in 380 ACP made a cheap and reliable tiny gun available to everybody and it is far more gun. From my experience people who own 25 ACP guns know nothing at all about guns and would never know about a company such as Buffalo Bore in the 1st place. I acknowledge that the BB load probably is superior to the standard factory load but that's like saying your chihuahua is the toughest chihuahua in town. He's still a 8lb dog that thinks he's a German Shepherd.

[FergusonTO35]

If you can find a new Kel-Tec P.32 for sale, BUY IT!

GOOD LUCK!

They are out there, you just have to be patient. Worse comes to worse, just pay an inflated price on Gunbroker. I have two of them and they aren't for sale, both sourced from the same pawn shop.

[M-Tecs]

In the late 70's a LE friend of mine was shot in the stomach with a 25acp. It did not stop him from returning fire. The shooter achieved room temperature. Personally, a Ruger LCP 380 with Buffalo Bore is light of caliber as I am willing to carry.

[rintinglen]

+1^^^
I have a couple of 25 ACP's, but I would never consider them as a primary weapon. My LCP 380 is only a hair larger than my Beretta 21 A and is lighter than my Colt 1908. You carry whatever you wish if it makes you feel good, but that LCP is the smallest gun I ever carry these days. Most days, I carry something even larger.

[TyGuy]

So Buffalo Bore has an "enhanced" .25 Auto load. Isn't that a little like putting a nitrous injector in a Geo Metro?

To be fair, there was a Geo Metro local to me that the owner stuffed a 454 into. I can’t exactly say he put it under the hood because it simply didn’t all fit under the hood. My understanding is he more or less secured the shell of the car around the driveline. He hurt a lot of feelings with that little death trap.

Sorry, back to hot rodding mouse guns!

[FergusonTO35]

+1^^^
I have a couple of 25 ACP's, but I would never consider them as a primary weapon. My LCP 380 is only a hair larger than my Beretta 21 A and is lighter than my Colt 1908. You carry whatever you wish if it makes you feel good, but that LCP is the smallest gun I ever carry these days. Most days, I carry something even larger.

I've had two LCP's and never could shoot them well. I really don't know why since I can shoot my Kel-Tec P-32 extremely well. At bad breath distance I could probably put a slug into something important, but that's all. Anything beyond that, excellent chance of putting the slug in a non-lethal spot or even missing entirely. Too many other guns I can shoot better to be satisfied with minimal performance. I usually carry a Kimber Micro, Glock 42, or S&W 637. I can shoot all of them extremely well, in fact better than most full size handguns. I also carry an Asp pocket baton.

[HumptyDumpty]

We all know the wound channel will be small, with little energy transfer, much like 32 ACP. The question is, can it reach the vitals? Could it pierce a skull or break a bone? If so, it has the potential to be useful. I've been meaning to do some testing on a Ballistic Dummy Labs skull with 25 acp and 32 Short, (I've already got the skull) I just keep forgetting about it.

[Captain O]

The "micro .380" pistols have a tendency to be uncontrollable. This is the primary reason for the .25 "Baby Browning" (Bauer) pistol. IF I can dump between 6 and 7 rounds in the miscreant's face (nose/eye) or the base of their throat, odds are that they won't last very long.

[FergusonTO35]

The "micro .380" pistols have a tendency to be uncontrollable. This is the primary reason for the .25 "Baby Browning" (Bauer) pistol. IF I can dump between 6 and 7 rounds in the miscreant's face (nose/eye) or the base of their throat, odds are that they won't last very long.

This 100%. I'm not going to carry something I'm not confident with. Back in the days when everybody hated 9's and said the .40 was the wave of the future, I stuck with the 9 because I can actually shoot it well. .40 factory loads are about useless to me because I don't enjoy practicing with them and I refuse to carry something I don't practice with.

[Captain O]

This 100%. I'm not going to carry something I'm not confident with. Back in the days when everybody hated 9's and said the .40 was the wave of the future, I stuck with the 9 because I can actually shoot it well. .40 factory loads are about useless to me because I don't enjoy practicing with them and I refuse to carry something I don't practice with.

The defense.... rests.

[Captain O]

We all know the wound channel will be small, with little energy transfer, much like 32 ACP. The question is, can it reach the vitals? Could it pierce a skull or break a bone? If so, it has the potential to be useful. I've been meaning to do some testing on a Ballistic Dummy Labs skull with 25 acp and 32 Short, (I've already got the skull) I just keep forgetting about it.

This is the raison d'etre for the Buffalo Bore .25 ACP loads (both 50-grain FMJ and 60-grain Cast Boolit loads). when it comes to short-barreled "micro pistols" penetration is your friend!

[FergusonTO35]

The defense.... rests.

You are too kind! Case in point, I had a college buddy with a Beretta 96 .40 and I had an S&W 10-5 and surplus Sig P6. He used to poo poo my "weak" sideirons in century old cartridges. Funny thing is, his groups with the Beretta (which was a very handsome gun BTW) always looked like shotgun patterns - when it wasn't failing to feed. My groups were, and are, nothing special but always well within minute of bad guy forehead or cardiovascular boiler room. And I can count the number of critical malfunctions I experienced with both guns on one hand. In spite of this, he always rested on the fact that his gun (which cost more than both of mine put together) had more powah than mine.

[FergusonTO35]

This is the raison d'etre for the Buffalo Bore .25 ACP loads (both 50-grain FMJ and 60-grain Cast Boolit loads). when it comes to short-barreled "micro pistols" penetration is your friend!

For any purpose under the sun where you would use a firearm, accuracy is king and penetration is queen! My deer killing abilities improved dramatically when I switched to the mild and fun to shoot .30-30 and retired the not fun (to me, anyway) .30'06. One shot kills with minimal tracking are the norm these days.

[Captain O]

For any purpose under the sun where you would use a firearm, accuracy is king and penetration is queen! My deer killing abilities improved dramatically when I switched to the mild and fun to shoot .30-30 and retired the not fun (to me, anyway) .30'06. One shot kills with minimal tracking are the norm these days.

I understand and concur.

[Bigslug]

The "micro .380" pistols have a tendency to be uncontrollable. This is the primary reason for the .25 "Baby Browning" (Bauer) pistol. IF I can dump between 6 and 7 rounds in the miscreant's face (nose/eye) or the base of their throat, odds are that they won't last very long.

Pretty outdated info. In the case of the old blowback guns - most of which were originally designed for .32 and had the .380 shoehorned in - the .380's tend to be pretty snappy. Most of what's currently on the market today are using Browning's tilting-barrel, recoil-operated concept. The Kel-Tec and Ruger LCP's are significantly smaller, lighter, and hit you with less perceived recoil than a .380 Walther PPK/S; go a smidgen bigger to a Glock 42 and you have an extremely controllable pistol.

[beemer]

The 25 auto does have it's place. My Mother had a Taurus 85, she couldn't pull the trigger. Living alone she wanted something she could shoot. I ended up buying a Taurus PLY25, it's a DAO and is very safe to handle. She could pull the trigger and keep all shots on a 18" square as fast as she could pull the trigger at 6' and tolerate the recoil. That would really mess up someone's day. It was all she could handle and it made her feel better and certainly better than nothing. I don't think her hands or a hatchet was an option.

The salesman really tried to sell me a 22 but I refused. He harped on ammo cost but that is irrelevant. CF ammo is much more reliable than rim fire and when you need this thing it had better work. Mom has passed and the Taurus 25 was cleaned put back in the box and in my safe where it will stay, might be there myself sometime.

Dave

[dverna]

If all you have on you is a .25 ACP, you have failed the 7 P's. Yes, it is better than nothing...but why have you planned so poorly?

Today there are many good choices in small carry guns. I have travelled the .32 and .380 routes, and they are OK but I can carry a 9mm Kahr CW easily. It weighs about a pound empty. It is huge tradeoff vs the .25's. Adding 1/2 a pound of gun mass to get five times more energy, and 50% more penetration with better accuracy.

I would not want to get shot with a .25 or .22 but that is not much of a testimonial. I do not want to get hit by a hammer either. If a threat needs to be "neutralized", more is better if you can handle the recoil and put rounds on target.

[Captain O]

The 25 auto does have it's place. My Mother had a Taurus 85, she couldn't pull the trigger. Living alone she wanted something she could shoot. I ended up buying a Taurus PLY25, it's a DAO and is very safe to handle. She could pull the trigger and keep all shots on a 18" square as fast as she could pull the trigger at 6' and tolerate the recoil. That would really mess up someone's day. It was all she could handle and it made her feel better and certainly better than nothing. I don't think her hands or a hatchet was an option.

The salesman really tried to sell me a 22 but I refused. He harped on ammo cost but that is irrelevant. CF ammo is much more reliable than rim fire and when you need this thing it had better work. Mom has passed and the Taurus 25 was cleaned put back in the box and in my safe where it will stay, might be there myself sometime.

Dave

Yep. The .25 ACP can "screw up an afternoon" rather quickly. A 50-grain, Buffalo Bore FMJ in my Bauer would be a decent bet . At 810 fps and 73 foot-pounds of energy, the "boutique" Buffalo Bore definitely steps up the .25 ACP cartridge's game. While more expensive than "practice" FMJ, the added energy increases the "anemic" cartridge's efficacy.

As stated earlier, the base of the throat, larynx and nose make great targets at ranges up to 2 yards (6 feet). Emptying 7 rounds at these points will likely bring the confrontation to a hasty conclusion.

[FergusonTO35]

Pretty outdated info. In the case of the old blowback guns - most of which were originally designed for .32 and had the .380 shoehorned in - the .380's tend to be pretty snappy. Most of what's currently on the market today are using Browning's tilting-barrel, recoil-operated concept. The Kel-Tec and Ruger LCP's are significantly smaller, lighter, and hit you with less perceived recoil than a .380 Walther PPK/S; go a smidgen bigger to a Glock 42 and you have an extremely controllable pistol.

Absolutely love the Glock 42, I have two of them. I feed them Makarov level reloads and they don't miss a beat. I can shoot them better than most full size handguns.

[Captain O]

Absolutely love the Glock 42, I have two of them. I feed them Makarov level reloads and they don't miss a beat. I can shoot them better than most full size handguns.

I understand this, but can you hide the Glock 42 where you can conceal either a "Baby Browning" or my Bauer? How does the Glock 42 mitgate the "nuclear" (+p) 9mm Browning loads?

[FergusonTO35]

I understand this, but can you hide the Glock 42 where you can conceal either a "Baby Browning" or my Bauer? How does the Glock 42 mitgate the "nuclear" (+p) 9mm Browning loads?

No, I carry my Kel-Tec P32 in that case. If a .25 was the only gun I had in that size category then I would carry it. The 42 eats up the hot loads no problemo. Which, aren't too far above regular .380 charges. My favorite load is 3.2 grains Titegroup under a 100 grain plated flat point. No pressure signs and still quite easy to shoot.