ballon head 45 colt??

[RyanJames170]

i do not know where to ask about this but i was curious if anyone had a few old balloon head 45 colt cases around, i want to do some measurements of there internal volume and also see how full they sit with various black powder types vs a few different modern cases.

[Martin Luber]

It just so happens...pm your address.

I have about a dozen

[KCSO]

Don't shoot any of the old balloon head cases, they were loaded with mercuric primers and they can be deteriorated at the head. They will separate right at the base and give you a face full of gas. Especially with a 73 Winchester. I have Peters 45 colt loaded with Black from the 1920 era and military 45 colt with smokers loaded pre ww1. The black powder loads I have taken down run from 36 grains to 39 with commercial ammo.
Bear in mind that you need a plastic tool to scrape out the caked powder so you never get it all.

[RyanJames170]

Nah I might load them up with fake BP after I am done with them and a used primer but, I just am curious to see with the modern cases I have how the compression of the charges compares,

[Dave T]

I came across a box of 50 un-fired NOS 45 Colt balloon head cases back in the early 1990s. I used them to duplicate the performance of the original load and compare it to my hand loads in solid head brass. In all the experimenting I did I do remember the difference in internal volume averaged about 4g of FFg powder, i.e. 36g of FFg filled a modern case to about the same level as 40g of FFg filled the balloon head case.

Hope that is of some help,
Dave

[BoBSavage]

i do not know where to ask about this but i was curious if anyone had a few old balloon head 45 colt cases around, i want to do some measurements of there internal volume and also see how full they sit with various black powder types vs a few different modern cases.

You may find that the earliest solid-head, semi-balloonhead 45 Colt cases may be a little different (larger pocket) than the later 1930's, 1940's and 1950's cases (smaller pockets - to no pocket). Typically the newer the case, the smaller the "pocket"...seemed typical with all manufactures. Eventually the pockets disappeared completely.

Cases that would have the largest pockets would be the unheadstamped cases. Then the WRA and UMC cases. Cases that would typically have smaller pockets would be the later years WRA and REM-UMC headstamped cases...then even smaller pockets with...W-W, Western, etc. headstamped cases.

It would be interesting to see a complete H2O volume list of each of them.

[RyanJames170]

You may find that the earliest solid-head, semi-balloonhead 45 Colt cases may be a little different (larger pocket) than the later 1930's, 1940's and 1950's cases (smaller pockets - to no pocket). Typically the newer the case, the smaller the "pocket"...seemed typical with all manufactures. Eventually the pockets disappeared completely.

Cases that would have the largest pockets would be the unheadstamped cases. Then the WRA and UMC cases. Cases that would typically have smaller pockets would be the later years WRA and REM-UMC headstamped cases...then even smaller pockets with...W-W, Western, etc. headstamped cases.

It would be interesting to see a complete H2O volume list of each of them.

I only really got interested in this because I know guys who load 40gr in modern cases, I have been able to compress 40gr into a modern case as well deep enough for a bullet to fit and it got me curious how much of a difference there is if any between the old factory commercial 250gr with 40gr of powder that people could get back in the day “ Elmer Keith” mentioned it being one of the factory 45 colt loads he liked, I think this was a loading run by remington until nearly the end of them making black powder 45 colt

[Brimstone]

I load 40gr of 3 and 4f into my assorted brass. Old orange Lyman 55 and 24" homemade drop tube loads them up just peachy.
I compress it with a plug, toss the bullet on and crimp.
They go bang just fine in revolvers and carbines.

[Tall]

Any folded head cases would have been made prior to 1900 for black powder. Unlikely Elmer Keith ever bought any of those. He might have purchased black powder loads but they would have been in solid brass cases.

[BoBSavage]

I only really got interested in this because I know guys who load 40gr in modern cases, I have been able to compress 40gr into a modern case as well deep enough for a bullet to fit and it got me curious how much of a difference there is if any between the old factory commercial 250gr with 40gr of powder that people could get back in the day “ Elmer Keith” mentioned it being one of the factory 45 colt loads he liked, I think this was a loading run by remington until nearly the end of them making black powder 45 colt

More than likely REM-UMC head stamped cases.



Any folded head cases would have been made prior to 1900 for black powder. Unlikely Elmer Keith ever bought any of those. He might have purchased black powder loads but they would have been in solid brass cases.

The only "folded-head" cases I know of for the 45 Colt cartridge would be those from Frankford Arsenal between August 1873 to August 1874. These were only used for one year before switching to the shorter 45 Schofield cases. The Frankford Arsenal folded-head cases could not withstand the pressures of the 40gr fully charged loads, thus the loads were reduced to 30gr. The Schofield's powder charge, in reference to the 45 Colt, was reduced to 28gr of bp and a 230gr bullet, reduced from 250gr.

[Dave T]

More than likely REM-UMC head stamped cases.




The only "folded-head" cases I know of for the 45 Colt cartridge would be those from Frankford Arsenal between August 1873 to August 1874. These were only used for one year before switching to the shorter 45 Schofield cases. The Frankford Arsenal folded-head cases could not withstand the pressures of the 40gr fully charged loads, thus the loads were reduced to 30gr. The Schofield's powder charge, in reference to the 45 Colt, was reduced to 28gr of bp and a 230gr bullet, reduced from 250gr.

If there was a "Like" button featured on this forum I would have hit it a couple times for this reply. BOB is exactly correct according to everything I've researched about the 45 Colt's cartridge.

Ordnance gutted the performance of the cartridge that was developed for them but the civilian production of the 45 Colt continued making a formidable round. A charge of 40g of FFg black powder in what I've always called balloon head cases (which hold about 4g more than modern solid head brass) behind a 250g RNFP lead bullet produced ~ 910 fps from the my 1st Gen SAA's 7-1/2" barrel. That's what Elmer claimed for the REM-UMC loads.

Dave

[indian joe]

If there was a "Like" button featured on this forum I would have hit it a couple times for this reply. BOB is exactly correct according to everything I've researched about the 45 Colt's cartridge.

Ordnance gutted the performance of the cartridge that was developed for them but the civilian production of the 45 Colt continued making a formidable round. A charge of 40g of FFg black powder in what I've always called balloon head cases (which hold about 4g more than modern solid head brass) behind a 250g RNFP lead bullet produced ~ 910 fps from the my 1st Gen SAA's 7-1/2" barrel. That's what Elmer claimed for the REM-UMC loads.

Dave

I think there a variety of definitions of "Balloon Head" that confuse this somewhat - semi balloonhead like the canadian CIL and dominion brass - often get tagged with the name that more properly belongs only on folded head brass -- at my place there is about 2grains difference (or less) from a dominion 44/40 case to a winchester -- starline and Rem maybe another grain smaller (maybe) . I have an old shooting mate that swears black and blue that Starline is semi balloon head and holds four grains more powder than winchester - he is 86 and unshakeable in his belief - which is based on an optical illusion when he peered down inside a new case one time - I quit arguing with him when he decided to give away all his stray 44/40 brass so he could update with new starline -- you dont want it? thank you I will shoot those .........................

[BoBSavage]

This should completely correct any confusion between what a balloonhead cartridge is vs other modern solid-head cases.

For what it is worth, factories compressed their black powder loads, so they can get more than 2 or 3 grains more in the balloon head pocket cases. If you don't believe me, disect an original case, fluff the powder and try to get it all back in. Enjoy!!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zSUuQdsGKe-CjyuN-XJRyfQwK5Sjv3YHTYm-Jws8rvU/edit

[M-Tecs]

This should completely correct any confusion between what a balloonhead cartridge is vs other modern solid-head cases.

For what it is worth, factories compressed their black powder loads, so they can get more than 2 or 3 grains more in the balloon head pocket cases. If you don't believe me, disect an original case, fluff the powder and try to get it all back in. Enjoy!!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zSUuQdsGKe-CjyuN-XJRyfQwK5Sjv3YHTYm-Jws8rvU/edit

Thats by far the best visual I have seen. Thanks for posting.