Managing fouling in a rifled musket

[fiatdad]

I was shooting my Zouave today and found it to be accurate for the first 3 rounds, then things went south.
The Minne became harder to push in the barrel even though I ran a nylon brush every shot. There seemed to be a spot 1/3 of the way down the barrel that was hard to push the Minne past.
I started to run a wet patch down and this helped but did not remove the hard spots. I lubed each bullet in the groves, but I think the lube ran out before it exited. How can I keep firing without cleaning between each shot. Should I stuff the cavity with lube?
Thanks
Nick

[LAGS]

What powder are you using.
And what is your powder load and weight of the slug

[Battis]

My lube method is not for everyone, but it works for me.
I spray PAM (vegetable spray) or the cheaper store version down the barrel every few shots and also on the patch.

[Sasquatch-1]

I keep a little spritzer bottle of alcohol in my kit. I'll spray some on a batch and run down the barrel between shots.

[varsity07840]

I was shooting my Zouave today and found it to be accurate for the first 3 rounds, then things went south.
The Minne became harder to push in the barrel even though I ran a nylon brush every shot. There seemed to be a spot 1/3 of the way down the barrel that was hard to push the Minne past.
I started to run a wet patch down and this helped but did not remove the hard spots. I lubed each bullet in the groves, but I think the lube ran out before it exited. How can I keep firing without cleaning between each shot. Should I stuff the cavity with lube?
Thanks
Nick
What kind of lube? size of minie vs bore size? Pure lead? You shouldn't have to fill the base with lube. Black powder?

[1Hawkeye]

Sounds like a rough spot in the bore if your lube isn't running out. I have good results with beeswax mixed with ox yoke wonder lube ( the hard stuff) mixed 50/50. I can shoot quite a few strings before needing to swab. For powder I'm using 45 grs of 3fg black powder.

[Outpost75]

Use 50-50 beeswax and olive oil for lube. Shoot all day without wiping.

[30calflash]

In my 3 band enfield I had great results with TC bore butter cut with yellow beeswax, about 50-50. Cleaned after shooting with TC blackpowder bore cleaner. 3f was used for powder, charge weights varied on the projectile used, between 34 and 44 grains, in general. I also filled the hollow base with Criscoe.

Both the lube mix and bore cleaner allowed this, petroleum based products leave an ash in the bore and hence the difficulty in loading. I was told this by another long time blackpowder user and it mirrors my experience.

Using that I had fired over 80 rounds during the course of a weekend, never ran a brush or patch thru the barrel. Other guys using alox were brushing after every 7 to 10 rounds so to be able to load their minies.

[varsity07840]

Alox is a terrible lube for black powder. It's intended for smokeless.

[Good Cheer]

Lanolin + olive oil + beeswax = LOOB.

The bullet design and softness, diameter being what is needed for the rifling, how much powder and what grade, and even how much blow back you're getting through a nipple...
There's just little effects all over the place that mite make or break the performance of the minie system.

[BLAHUT]

I have had good luck with a mix of - 1 part lard, 1 part paraffin, 1/2 part bees wax, with black.

[eastbank]

crisco, un salted has worked well for me. i fill the hollow base on the mini. the bullet i use is from a lyman 575213 bullet. stiffen it up with bee,s wax for warmer weather.

[charlie b]

Use 50-50 beeswax and olive oil for lube. Shoot all day without wiping.

This works for me too, even with slugs and lubed felt wads.

[fiatdad]

I am using a 35 grain load of 3f Goex,lube of 50%bees wax, 30% Crisco and 20% olive oil (extra Virgin). The minies are lee.

[Outpost75]

This works for me too, even with slugs and lubed felt wads.

Worked for the Royal Italian Army before 1900 also.

[carbine]

Your powder is good, as is the load.
Assuming the lube is good the issue could be a slightly undersized minie. Undersized minies foul quicker. We like to shoot minies one thousandths under bore size.
Pin gauges help to find exact bore size

[bedbugbilly]

In the years I shot N-SSA (mid to late 1960s and 1980s) all we did was finger fill the base of the mini with Crisco - kept the fouling soft through many shots during timed relays. In between relays, a wet patch down the bore followed by a dry one and good to go. Worked fine in my Zouave - still does, as well as several original rifled muskets I had at the time. 60 gr. 2F DuPont/Goex. YMMV

[fiatdad]

Thanks

[longbow]

A little late but I'll add my $0.02...

Back in the 1970's I had a repro Zouave that fouled badly. I don't recall the brand. I tried several lubes and over lubing (as in LOTS of lube) and about everything but it seemed to have a couple of spots about 2/3 the way down the bore that got bad and Minies often stuck there so had to be moved down to the powder with a mallet. This sometimes happened after just 2 or 3 shots. Everyone else was shooting while I had a stuck Minie! I think 1Hawkeye above has it right about a possible rough spot. I gave up on my gun and sold it to a friend who wanted it to play with. He lapped the barrel and it worked well for him after the lapping. No more fouling issues. My take was that there were some machining marks from reaming and/or rifling that were causing fouling build up.

You might try casting a slug around a rod in the bore or cast and drill then run the groove diameter slug down the bore to see if there are rough spots. Or just try lapping it if lube or different size Minie doesn't fix it for you.

Just a thought and my experience.

Good luck!

Longbow

[dave951]

You didn't say if you had sized the minie to .001 under the actual, measured bore size. Shooting a .575 minie in a .580 bore is a very short route to the very problem you're describing.

But what would I know about shooting minies....
316596

[dave951]

still got the "attitude" I see :bigsmyl2:

Sometimes reality is unavoidable.

[frogleg]

You didn't say if you had sized the minie to .001 under the actual, measured bore size. Shooting a .575 minie in a .580 bore is a very short route to the very problem you're describing.

But what would I know about shooting minies....
316596
Can’t argue with success

[longbow]

Sorry, I am a bit lost on the latest discussion.

The OP says he gets fouling about 1/3 the way down the barrel. Why would an undersize Minie cause a "spot" of fouling? I'd think if an undersize Minie wasn't sealing the bore, which I'm guessing is the supposed cause of fouling from an undersize Minie, that the entire bore would foul mand worse at the breech.

Dave951 shows an excellent group on target so he obviously knows how to get accuracy from his gun but what does that have to do with a "spot" of fouling in the bore?

In my case the "spot" of fouling was chronic and was due to a rough bore.

We don't have a lot to go on from the 1st post here as he doesn't say whether this is the first time or every time he shoots the gun and what the fit of Minie to bore is.

[Nobade]

I'm waiting for him to pull the breech plug, slug it, decide if it is a loose or tight spot, and lap it out to fix or if too bad have it relined. But he hasn't been back.

[stubshaft]

I use a INSIDE/OUTSIDE BULLET LUBER with MCM Bullet Lube from North East Trade Company. I size my RCBS minies to .001" under bore diameter and use 65.0 grains of 2F. It usually shoots into less than 2" @ 50yds (my eyes ain't what they used to be) and I can shoot ALL day without worrying about fouling!

[LAGS]

@ Nobade.
There are lots of rifles that it is not a good idea to pull the breech plug to do the slugging.
And lots of shooters that don't have the skills or tools to pull their breech plug.
Or they are just afraid to and have no gunsmith that can do it for them.
But on some rifles , I do the slugging to size the bore by making a lapping slug out of epoxy.
I probably should do a thread on how those epoxy slugs are made and pulled out of the barrel without having to pull the breech plugs.

[Nobade]

How do you get epoxy to not shrink?
Other than those early repro muskets with the brazed in breech plugs I haven't seen one that you couldn't pull the plug. But you're right on, not everybody has the tools or knowledge to do that. I have slugged barrels like you describe using cerrosafe, but it has to be super consistent or the slug is going to get stuck. At least when it does, a heat gun will get it out. But with most production barrels that still doesn't tell you anything since they'll all hang up somewhere down in there.
My own Miroku '63 was a lot like what he's describing. Once I got it apart I could see burrs raised on the edges of the lands from a dull rifling cutter. It took some ridiculously aggressive measures to get that barrel to work, but eventually I got it to do what it is supposed to. There's no way it was usable as delivered from the factory.

[fiatdad]

Stuffing the base with lube worked. The rough spot was fouling .thanks

[LAGS]

@ Nobade
The Epoxy that I mostly use is JB weld or good Glass Bedding Epoxy.
They don't shrink.
But if you use the cheaper epoxy that does not have the factory rated strength,it seems to shrink some or even stay softer and gummy on the surface.
I have even mixed the Epoxy with grit from my small sandblaster that is about 600 or finer grit to make a molded polishing slug.
When I returned "Armoredmans" sons rifle to him.
I also gave him the two lapping slugs that fit on a cleaning rod so he has them in case he needs them to polish out the barrel for any reason.
There was no need for me to keep them because they Fit his barrel only.
I also made him a Slug Rifling tool out of a section of his old barrel.
That way.
He can cast up slugs that are tight on the bore diameter.
Then pound them thru the section from the barrel.
That will size the slug to fit That Barrel and the rifling will be cut into the slug.
That way the slug can them be lubed and will fit easier into the bore and follow the rifling perfectly .
Plus be much easier to load.
I am sure that after he uses that set up he might do a post.

[LAGS]

@ fiatdad
I am glad to hear that you solved the issue with your rifle.
All the info that members provided can be a big help if you or others ever need it.
Have fun shooting.

[varsity07840]

Sorry, I am a bit lost on the latest discussion.

The OP says he gets fouling about 1/3 the way down the barrel. Why would an undersize Minie cause a "spot" of fouling? I'd think if an undersize Minie wasn't sealing the bore, which I'm guessing is the supposed cause of fouling from an undersize Minie, that the entire bore would foul mand worse at the breech.

Dave951 shows an excellent group on target so he obviously knows how to get accuracy from his gun but what does that have to do with a "spot" of fouling in the bore?

In my case the "spot" of fouling was chronic and was due to a rough bore.

We don't have a lot to go on from the 1st post here as he doesn't say whether this is the first time or every time he shoots the gun and what the fit of Minie to bore is.

Actually it can. I mistakenly cast some .686 minies from the wrong lead which I discovered later after I tested them for hardness. The first round I fired seemed to have less recoil than normal but I shrugged it off. The second round loaded a bit hard about two thirds of the way down and got worse in the same spot with the third. They did not group well. Bottom line, the minies were not expanding because of the lead not being pure, allowing fouling to build up. Hence my question to him about pure lead.