Best method for removing a carbon ring and non-rotating cleaning rod

[TXCOONDOG]

I picked up a 700 BA in 243 from someone that was having trouble chambering rounds and showing excessive pressure signs.

Long story short, removed the lead in the rifling but it has a severe carbon build up in the throat.

Leaning towards using an oversized nylon bore brush and solvent (shooters choice) to remove the ring, but not sure if this would be the best method.


Also looking for an 8"-12" carbon fiber cleaning rod that doesn't rotate (fixed).

Any recommendations are appreciated.

[pietro]

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https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/how-to-remove-the-carbon-ring.3849274/

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[Hannibal]

If it's hard carbon which it probably is solvent won't remove it. I suggest taking a slightly oversized brush or wrapping a patch around a worn bore brush and adding either JB Bore paste or Flitz and working the neck and throat area. Use short strokes or spin SLOWLY with an old section of cleaning rod. Work slowly and carefully. I don't know if you have a bore scope or not but they're nice to have in a situation like this so you can monitor your progress and watch for similar problems in the future.

[TD1886]

You could try a bore brush soaked in carburetor choke cleaner. Becareful with it not to get it on stock finish. It that doesn't get some of it out it's pretty tough carbon.

Hannibal mentioned a borescope. You can get those flexible ones off the internet that work with you cell phone. Some of them are pretty good.

[txbirdman]

JB with Kroil on a patch over a worn bore brush works well most of the time. But if you have severe carbon build up in the throat tube best stuff I’ve found is called Freesall which I bought at N O’reilly’s auto parts store. Plug the chamber and spray a liberal amount down the bore while the rifle is setting in a position so that the Freesall flows toward the chamber. After setting over night drain and run a few patches. Then clean as normal. Worked on my Remington .308. Now I use Patch out after each range session to prevent the build up.

[pworley1]

Ed's Red.

[Hannibal]

Ed's Red.

Not for hard carbon. That stuff won't dissolve in any solvent and requires a mild abrasive and elbow grease to get out. The OP stared the bore was leaded badly too so I'd say the owner previous to him created a pretty big mess.

[TD1886]

Not for hard carbon. That stuff won't dissolve in any solvent and requires a mild abrasive and elbow grease to get out. The OP stared the bore was leaded badly too so I'd say the owner previous to him created a pretty big mess.

You know what is another good cleaner, although might not get that carbon, is ATF fluid. I've seen totally rusted wrenches and ratchets soaked in for like a week come out like new.

Shooters Choice was derived from a GM Top Cylinder cleaner from I've heard. That's just for information.

[Hannibal]

Hard carbon is one of those things that a shooter really has to have a problem with to really understand just how much trouble it is to remove once it forms. It's not the same as heavy fouling and definitely nothing like loose fouling. It tends to form in the small space between the end of the case mouth on the brass and the junction between the neck and shoulder in the chamber. It tends to accumulate slowly and will eventually cause various problems including overpressure because the brass can not expand to release the bullet to accuracy issues because the bullet literally scrapes on the carbon. It's a real problem, not something imagined and once you have a carbon ring like that there's no easy way to remove it all. And if you don't get it all out and work to prevent it then
it will eventually return and cause the same problems once again.
Without being able to see images of the chamber in the area I outlined above I've no way of knowing if it's truly a hard carbon ring or not, and without a borescope there is no way to know if it's been removed or not or if it even existed to begin with.
Many people get upset about the suggestion of using borescopes. I think that's primarily because they haven't had the opportunity to learn enough to understand what they are seeing. That's completely understandable and if someone despises borescopes that's definitely their right to have that opinion of them. The downside of that IMHO is that you may find yourself needing to take or send your rifle to someone who can diagnose your problem for you and many will probably tell you the barrel is shot out/bad/damaged.
Casual shooters rarely run into this but competition shooters that shoot a lot can and do. The link posted above by pietro is a good source for information if you're interested.

Hopefully this is more helpful than confusing to those who read it.

[TD1886]

Hard carbon is one of those things that a shooter really has to have a problem with to really understand just how much trouble it is to remove once it forms. It's not the same as heavy fouling and definitely nothing like loose fouling. It tends to form in the small space between the end of the case mouth on the brass and the junction between the neck and shoulder in the chamber. It tends to accumulate slowly and will eventually cause various problems including overpressure because the brass can not expand to release the bullet to accuracy issues because the bullet literally scrapes on the carbon. It's a real problem, not something imagined and once you have a carbon ring like that there's no easy way to remove it all. And if you don't get it all out and work to prevent it then
it will eventually return and cause the same problems once again.
Without being able to see images of the chamber in the area I outlined above I've no way of knowing if it's truly a hard carbon ring or not, and without a borescope there is no way to know if it's been removed or not or if it even existed to begin with.
Many people get upset about the suggestion of using borescopes. I think that's primarily because they haven't had the opportunity to learn enough to understand what they are seeing. That's completely understandable and if someone despises borescopes that's definitely their right to have that opinion of them. The downside of that IMHO is that you may find yourself needing to take or send your rifle to someone who can diagnose your problem for you and many will probably tell you the barrel is shot out/bad/damaged.
Casual shooters rarely run into this but competition shooters that shoot a lot can and do. The link posted above by pietro is a good source for information if you're interested.

Hopefully this is more helpful than confusing to those who read it.

I agree with what you posted. It can cause all the problems states. This reminds me of carbon that build up in AR15 and AR15 cylinder in the bolt carrier. It's tough to get out to and many places make like an endmill tool to clean it out with I definitely wouldn't use. The chamber in rifle is another matter indeed.. There are solvents that will disolve carbon build up and I'm not sure what they are all except for the automotive use ones.

[txbirdman]

You can tell by the residue on the patches when you’re extracting carbon. You’ll get brownish black rather than the dark black you get from powder. One thing for sure, once you get it out you’ll be careful about allowing it to build up in the future.

[Hannibal]

You can tell by the residue on the patches when you’re extracting carbon. You’ll get brownish black rather than the dark black you get from powder. One thing for sure, once you get it out you’ll be careful about allowing it to build up in the future.

I respectfully disagree. The only thing a clean patch tells you is whatever you put in the bore hasn't removed anything. And the only thing a dirty patch tells you is something was removed somewhere. What it was and where it came from is an unknown. The actual condition of the bore and chamber is completely unknown without being able to see inside.

[Hannibal]

As a test I inspected 4 old, takeoff barrels that I had lying around. They all appeared bright and shiny when viewed toward a bright light source. All 4 proved to have a combination of rust, carbon, copper and lead when viewed with a borescope. I tried various solvents and solutions to see just what might come out. Nothing removed everything and frankly I quit testing because there was no one 'magic pill' and I'd already spent too much time messing around when it was obvious all were nothing more than scrap metal even if I did eventually manage to get everything out. Heavy rust pitting was the nail in the coffin in all 4 cases.
My accuracy standards are likely above those of many so there's that. If I can't get a minimum of an inch at 100 yards I loose interest and I'll move on.

That's with jacketed bullets. Cast makes it harder to do no matter what so I don't mean to say I can accomplish those types of feats.

But those barrels sure looked bright and shiny looking down them.

[M-Tecs]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIYNG2QlpOE

[M-Tecs]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0uDiD1LbcQ

[TD1886]

As a test I inspected 4 old, takeoff barrels that I had lying around. They all appeared bright and shiny when viewed toward a bright light source. All 4 proved to have a combination of rust, carbon, copper and lead when viewed with a borescope. I tried various solvents and solutions to see just what might come out. Nothing removed everything and frankly I quit testing because there was no one 'magic pill' and I'd already spent too much time messing around when it was obvious all were nothing more than scrap metal even if I did eventually manage to get everything out. Heavy rust pitting was the nail in the coffin in all 4 cases.
My accuracy standards are likely above those of many so there's that. If I can't get a minimum of an inch at 100 yards I loose interest and I'll move on.

But those barrels sure looked bright and shiny looking down them.

I had a friend when I lived in Colorado that brought a 1903 Springfield over that shot worse then worse. Well the first thing I found was the bore was fouled bad, worse I've seen. Took me 3 days to clean it to basically bare metal. I slugged it and found the groove was slightly over .310. I reported that to him and he got rid of it, LOL.

[M-Tecs]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xte_pf3ZhsA

[M-Tecs]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R252W7ZJNCs

[Hannibal]

CLR was one of the products I tested in the 4 takeoff barrels I mentioned. It removed the rust period.

If your bore is rusty no amount of cleaning is going to fix it.

If someone else finds it helpful that's great.

Boretech C4 was another. It's fine for loose fouling but didn't touch anything else. Never tested Carb-out.

[Kestrel4k]

In my humble opinion, it sounds to me like Hannibal is right on; I recall a thread a while back on another gun forum, where the OP and membership went around for quite a while about carbon rings in the forward portion of the OP's revolver cylinder, and the best techniques to remove the carbon.

After an investigation that J.Edgar Hoover would have been proud of, it turned out that the features of interest were only the cylinder throats. :groner:

[TXCOONDOG]

Yes I have a bore scope. I had hell getting the lead out as it was deep in the grooves from the chamber to the bore. I had to use a 22 cal brush and choir boy to peel small amounts at a time until I could pull a lewis lead remover through the barrel.

I clean my guns after each range session and small amounts of lead & carbon was always easy to deal with. I only gave $400 for the rifle; the SS action, trigger and MDT chassis is worth more than that.

I want to see if I can get it to shoot, before replacing the barrel.

Thanks for the tips and help all.

[Hannibal]

OK then, I don't think anything apart from JB Bore paste or Flitz is going get that out and time + elbow grease will be required.

In all sincerity, I hope it works out for you.

[45_Colt]

Use Boretech C4 Carbon remover. Let it soak, let it do the work for you. It does the trick.

Seriously, lightly stuff the chamber throat with paper towel or patch material. Then soak it in C4. Let it go for at least 12 hours. Knock the patch(s) out and see how it is. Rinse and repeat.

Note that C4 will also attack copper. So be aware that bronze brushes and brass jags need to the cleaned ASAP.

Hard carbon deposits are a pain in the a (PITA). C4 was originally developed for rimfire firearms. But seeing (dang bore-scope) how bad centerfires get, it is also used on them.

45_Colt

[Hannibal]

Tried C4. Got clean patches. Looked and carbon was there. Tried again with a longer soak. Same result. Tried again overnight. Same result.

Personal experience.

If whatever is vexing you comes out with C4 then it's not hard carbon. I can't imagine how hard carbon could even form in a .22LR barrel. Completely different circumstances and resulting problems.

[Hannibal]

I've got a nearly new 16oz bottle of C4. If someone will PM me their address and actual shipping cost you can have it because I don't have any use for it.

Yes, I'm absolutely serious.

[Hannibal]

Moderators, if this runs afoul of any forum rules that is purely an honest mistake on my part. I presume since it's essentially a give-away it's fine but if I'm mistaken then tell me what to do and I'll correct it any way I can.

[Shawlerbrook]

Whatever method you use, be careful. I have seen some major barrel damage from some overzealous scrubbing.

[Hannibal]

Whatever method you use, be careful. I have seen some major barrel damage from some overzealous scrubbing.

I've taken a bronze brush to one of those takeoff barrels and chucked it up in a cordless drill. Let 'er rip for roughly 5 minutes. No significant damage noted in the bore scope.

Dragging a cleaning rod over the crown or throat is a different matter all together. I don't recommend either one. But carefully cleaning a bore with mild abrasives to remove hard carbon isn't going to make things any worse.

[45_Colt]

Tried C4. Got clean patches. Looked and carbon was there. Tried again with a longer soak. Same result. Tried again overnight. Same result.

Maybe it was bluing in the barrel? Most barrels get blued without plugging the bores. BTST (been there, seen that).


If whatever is vexing you comes out with C4 then it's not hard carbon. I can't imagine how hard carbon could even form in a .22LR barrel. Completely different circumstances and resulting problems.

Hard carbon buildup in a rimfire barrel is a known issue. For the most part it builds up at the mouth of where the cartridge ends. Once a large enough ring (when let go) builds up, it rips at the soft lead boolit and wreaks accuracy.

45_Colt

[Hannibal]

Maybe it was bluing in the barrel? Most barrels get blued without plugging the bores. BTST (been there, seen that).



Hard carbon buildup in a rimfire barrel is a known issue. For the most part it builds up at the mouth of where the cartridge ends. Once a large enough ring (when let go) builds up, it rips at the soft lead boolit and wreaks accuracy.

45_Colt

I'm not intimately familiar with rimfire shooting in high volumes so I'll not attempt to dispute this. Perhaps we are speaking to the same problem but I've no way of knowing.

As I've said before, no one knows what they don't know. Perhaps I'll take up rimfire shooting on a large scale one day and develop an opinion based off that. All I can say for sure is hard carbon in a centerfire is a real problem and best avoided if possible.

[porthos]

i would try 0000 steel wool wrapped around a bore brush; with solvent. i don't think that a one time scrubbing will do any damage to the bore of a modern rifle bbl. i just read on another site recently that it would take 50,000 strokes in a bbl. to do any damage with steel wool (0000)

[Hannibal]

C4 has been spoken for pending shipping arrangements.

[stubshaft]

JB with Kroil on a patch over a worn bore brush works well most of the time. But if you have severe carbon build up in the throat tube best stuff I’ve found is called Freesall which I bought at N O’reilly’s auto parts store. Plug the chamber and spray a liberal amount down the bore while the rifle is setting in a position so that the Freesall flows toward the chamber. After setting over night drain and run a few patches. Then clean as normal. Worked on my Remington .308. Now I use Patch out after each range session to prevent the build up.

Most solvents including Brakleen will only cause the carbon to laugh. Copious amounts of elbow grease with the abovementioned will do the trick!

[elmacgyver0]

So, what I am reading here is nothing will dissolve carbon?

[M-Tecs]

So, what I am reading here is nothing will dissolve carbon?

Normal carbon and hard carbon are much different animals. The best advice is to use cleaning methods that don't allow build-up. Once the hard carbon ring forms is much more difficult to remove. I was tasked with removing a hard carbon ring on a competition trap gun. No chemicals I tried or mild abrasives would touch hard carbon ring. Next was a long angle HSS forcing cone reamer. The hard carbon ring toasted the HS reamer. Stepped up to carbide forcing cone reamer and that did take it out but once removed there was pitting where the hard carbon ring was so the Barrel was replaced.

With competition rifles or high usage rifles you also have hydrogen embrittlement issues so it's not a direct comparison, but hard carbon rings will kill a HSS reamer if you are doing a barrel setback. In the 90's some writers in Precision Shooting Magazine and other places were pushing no brush/abrasive cleaning methods. Some of the same people were using Moly in a big way. Hard carbon rings became a significant issue for some.

Barrel cleaning methods almost become a religion for some. Lots of very strong opinions. The video's I posted above are the methods a national champion long range shooter and another nation level shooter works for them.

Personally I use Bore Tech Eliminator, Wipe-Out foam, Sweets 7.62, Butch's Bore Shine in various sequences. In addition, a mild abrasive is used every 400 to 500 rounds. My borescope and actual target results indicates these methods work well for me. No carbon issues let alone anything that comes close to a hard carbon ring forming.

One more from a bench rest legend


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfgbvAz09uI

[Martin Luber]

Anyone use Slip 2000 degreaser?

[TD1886]

It's not explained normal carbon and hard carbon, it's explained soft carbon and hard carbon. The difference between the two, although they are both carbon, is the arrangement of the carbon atoms. They are different in how they react. A good example of hard carbon is diamond, which is the hardest thing on earth. It's hardness makes it impervious to many thing, but yet they cut diamonds by fracturing them as they are brittle. Hard carbons are far resistant to chemicals as duty noted by this thread. A diamond can be dissolved by hydrofluoric acid. Yes the carbon is hard in that chamber, but not nearly as hard as a diamond, so there are more chemicals/acids that can dissolve it. It's the temperature and pressure that bond the carbon atoms to each other in a unique arrangement; one carbon atom to four other carbon atoms. We kind of have that in the chamber.

[M-Tecs]

https://mdttac.com/blog/the-carbon-ring-inside-mdt/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social-media-post&utm_term=the-carbon-ring-inside-mdt&utm_content=&utm_campaign=mdt-blog&fbclid=IwAR2dCxIGGLcels5nY36sEQX3VRtgLXruLDfpGmcno VCN-jHHoNS-ibb5m6M

[45_Colt]

https://mdttac.com/blog/the-carbon-ring-inside-mdt/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social-media-post&utm_term=the-carbon-ring-inside-mdt&utm_content=&utm_campaign=mdt-blog&fbclid=IwAR2dCxIGGLcels5nY36sEQX3VRtgLXruLDfpGmcno VCN-jHHoNS-ibb5m6M

Great article. Short, sweet, to the point, and has good photos... Thanks.

45_Colt