can brass cartridge swage a soft lead boolit?

[sv44]

Having some trouble with keyholing all of a sudden and am wondering: is it possible that the cartridge is swaging the base enough to destabilize my cast and swaged boolit?

38 special full wadcutter - either dewc cast or full swaged 'trash can' with a target nose - seated a hair above the case
minimal crimp (nothing really)
3.5gr bullseye or 3.2 gr WST
freedom arms 97 and 83
BHN 8
powder coated
sized to 0.358
trying to just shoot paper and these are going haywire at 40'

i load on a dillon sdb and I know the powder funnel doesn't get more than half the distance inside the case- looking for alternatives to the standard dillon funnel

things I've noticed- I can hear the rounds that will keyhole when i shoot them - sound different somehow. I have checked and checked the amount of powder thrown and it is always spot on but.. I haven't measured each and every cartridge yet- will do that next.

i cast some new DEWC this morning BHN 11-12
when these are loaded I can see where the bullet lands in the case (as opposed to the softer lead) so that prompted this line of question.

did not see much barrel leading when i looked the other day (but there was some)


before this started i was using both cast and swaged with no keyholing
but this started with a new batch or both cast and swaged that I made earlier this month.

so.. all thoughts and critiques are welcome.Thank you in advance

[rusty marlin]

Yes, if there is enough neck tension and the boolit is of pure lead or soft enough alloy it can crush the boolit.
I have a couple of special "M" die inserts I've made for the 38-55 and 45-70 that create the "perfect" inside diameter that allows the boolit to be seated with thumb pressure. The 45-70's have to be crimped or the the boolit will jump.
If you are getting leading, your bullets aren't big enough, or the cylinder throats are smaller than the groove dia. and sizing them down.

[GhostHawk]

Yes indeed. Pull a couple of bullets and measure. Remember you want 1 to 3 thousandths OVER groove diameter.

I would start by trying a few with easing off the crimp. And if you are not flaring or expanding your brass before inserting cast you should be.

[M-Tecs]

Yes and Lyman M dies are your friend.

[stubshaft]

Yes and Lyman M dies are your friend.

I prefer the NOE expanders because they are available in different diameters.

[M-Tecs]

I prefer the NOE expanders because they are available in different diameters.

Good point. I have my own lathe and mill so generally make/modify what I need to the size I need.

[TD1886]

First off I'm like M-Tec in that I make my own expanders. With that said I hate Lyman's . For factory I think RCBS far exceed them, too bad they don't make a wide range of expands. As it's been explained here yes case necks so size down your cast bullets especially the softer ones. Well I'm going to tell you that wonderful ledge you like that the Lyman M die leaves ALSO will size your softer bullets down. I think the M die also works the case mouth more then any other type.

[wilecoyote]

...so.. all thoughts and critiques are welcome.Thank you in advance
an alternative way to eliminate excessive neck tension can be to use a Lee Factory Crimp die without crimp bushing instead of the traditional sizer. it works in my S&Ws but i don't know if so for you, given the tight tolerances of your revolver chambers_

[uscra112]

"I can hear the rounds that will keyhole when i shoot them - sound different somehow. "

At a guess this may be because you are not crimping enough to prevent recoil from shifting the bullets outward in the case. Change in effective seating depth is changing the powder burn pressure.

Old time .38 bullseye shooters didn't size their cases down much if at all. The bullet was no more than a light drag fit when inserting; the roll crimp was what held it in place. I got so obsessive that I had different expander plugs for different brass temper, so that the seating force was always to my liking. I was shooting a superb 9" Colt Officers' Model which was so inherently accurate that things like that could be detected.

Something else worth knowing is that wadcutter brass does not taper inside, so as to avoid swaging down the bullet. This is the stuff with the cannelure. If you're seating a DEWC deep in ordinary brass, you're swaging the back end down, which will do you no good at all.

[sv44]

thank you for the replies. If i can ask a few clarifying questions.
I am using a dillon SDB progressive press- Is there a way to use any of the expander dies with this press or does this require a using a different system or set up to allow this to occur? The dillon system uses a powder through die to size and deliver the powder so.. should i try to find a way to alter their powder funnel to allow the wadcutter to seat deeper and not be sized down - at this point I see making the funnel a bit longer and sizing it down to the correct dimensions (not sure how to do that just yet but I am not afraid to try)
again, thanks to all

[uscra112]

I would tell you to stop using that progressive press until you have the parameters well sorted out. First and foremost, are you using brass made for wadcutters? If not, no amount of fiddling with that Dillon expander/powder-funnel will do you any good. Second, how are you crimping? The crimp must be a roll crimp, not a taper crimp as used for semi-autos that headspace on the case mouth, and it must be fairly firm. The uniformity of the crimp is crucial, so making sure that all your brass is the same length is required. Variation in length means variation of crimp. You are loading plain lead bullets, not jacketed, and the rules of the road are very different.

[Jal5]

I’d start by pulling a few of your reloaded rounds and measure the boolit in comparison to a your boolit size prior to reloading it. My guess is you are swaging the boolit down in the reloading process = leading and keyholes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[sv44]

ok, i will do that. now-- i am not well versed on pulling the bullet to examine- these are seated deep (a hair above the cartridge mouth). will an inertia puller work for this or should i try to seat them out a bit and then pull them?
i am using starline brass, i have no wadcutter cartridges- is there any hope for those cartridges or do i need to search for the wadcutter brass (i have seen the posts regarding this and it seemed the conclusion was starline would work)

[StrawHat]

…

Having some trouble with keyholing all of a sudden…




…38 special full wadcutter …

Good choice of cartridge.


…3.5gr bullseye…

That is a full power charge, perhaps less powder would help.



…sized to 0.358…

What is the largest throat diameter?


…trying to just shoot paper …

When I competed in PPC, the competitive shooters using Bullseye, were loading 2.6-2.8 grains.


…did not see much barrel leading when i looked the other day (but there was some)…

A little leading is no big deal, a good wire brush will remove it.

What revolver are you using?

As uscra112 pointed out, wadcutter brass is preferred. Not sure how readily available it is anymore.

Also, uscra112 mentioned varying the crimp, when I shot, I did not crimp at all. 2.8 grains of Bullseye shot better in my revolvers with no crimp. I was concerned about bullet creep so I loaded six, shot five, reloaded with five fresh and shot, reloaded, etc. I did not see measureable creep with the one unfired cartridge after 25 rounds fired. The next six (including the skipped round) all went into the same cluster at 25 yards. So, try with no crimp?

The Dillon SDB press uses dedicated dies. I am not sure how they can be modified or even IF they can be modified. If you have access to a single stage press, work out your load and then try it on the SDB. All of us who shot competitively used a progressive press of some sort, unless the department was supplying ammunition, mine did not.

I used and still use a Dillon 450. It produced good solid ammunition when I did my part.

Keep us posted on your progress please.

Kevin

[uscra112]

One of several threads on the Bullseye Forum about selecting brass for wadcutters:

https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t13335-38-sp-brass-for-wadcutters

More:

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?436536-Where-to-find-38-wadcutter-brass

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?400746-38-Special-Wadcutter-Brass

[gwpercle]

You just about have to have a Lyman M-Die to load WC's (and also any lead boolit in 9mm luger... it's a stinker ) but a better set up is sold by NOE ... after getting one I have never bought another Lyman M-Die ... NOE every time and with every new mould ... check them out at www.noebulletmolds.com
Gary

[sv44]

so.. i thought the load was on the high end as well, that's what started this process. I dropped to 2.8gr or so and the key holing began so it's been a long slow walk up to try to get to the bottom of it all.
the firearm is FA 83- throat is .357. I size to .358 after powder coating
i pulled a wadcutter today and it has been sized down to .356 by the cartridge.
like i said in the OP, i cast some new boolits with a harder mix (ben 11-12) and shot them this morning- no key holing but i am still convinced that i can shoot better if i get this cartridge sized better (it measures .355 with a pin gauge).

can i ask.. if i am to proceed with a single stage and an NOE die- is it reasonable to size then move the cartridge back to the dillon to drop powder, insert the boolit, and crimp?
speaking of crimp- i have next to no crimp and seem to doing fine (this is after crimping far more to see what that did to my results -as expected, made things worse or certainly no better).

[StrawHat]

Another thought, since you are using a revolver, you can seat the boolit out long in the case to avoid pinching it. Yes, you will need a bit more powder to make up for the added case volume but that is certainly doable.

Kevin

[TD1886]

ok, i will do that. now-- i am not well versed on pulling the bullet to examine- these are seated deep (a hair above the cartridge mouth). will an inertia puller work for this or should i try to seat them out a bit and then pull them?
i am using starline brass, i have no wadcutter cartridges- is there any hope for those cartridges or do i need to search for the wadcutter brass (i have seen the posts regarding this and it seemed the conclusion was starline would work)

Yes an inertai puller will work.

[TD1886]

You just about have to have a Lyman M-Die to load WC's (and also any lead boolit in 9mm luger... it's a stinker ) but a better set up is sold by NOE ... after getting one I have never bought another Lyman M-Die ... NOE every time and with every new mould ... check them out at www.noebulletmolds.com
Gary

You absolutely possitively do not have to have Lyman M die to load good 9mm ammo or any other ammo for that matter.

[M-Tecs]

thank you for the replies. If i can ask a few clarifying questions.
I am using a dillon SDB progressive press- Is there a way to use any of the expander dies with this press or does this require a using a different system or set up to allow this to occur? The dillon system uses a powder through die to size and deliver the powder so.. should i try to find a way to alter their powder funnel to allow the wadcutter to seat deeper and not be sized down - at this point I see making the funnel a bit longer and sizing it down to the correct dimensions (not sure how to do that just yet but I am not afraid to try)
again, thanks to all

Yes, the Dillon powder funnel can be custom made to function the same as the M-Die or the NEO system. I mostly load on a Dillon 650 or a Dillon Super 1050. I custom make my own powder funnels for my Dillons for cast bullets. I start from scratch with bar stock. For my method a lathe is required. I am considering producing them, however, due to other commitments that would not be till after the first of the year.

M-Die sizes can be found here http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohland/Cast_Bullet/Lyman_M-Dies/Lyman_M-Die_Plugs.html also has some good diagrams for folks that haven't used them.

NOE available sizes here https://noebulletmolds.com/site/product-category/expanders/expander-plug-pistol/

Some more info here https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t4542-how-do-i-keep-my-swaged-bullets-from-getting-swaged-during-reloading

You might be able to purchase what you want from here https://www.doublealpha.biz/us/mr-bulletfeeder-powder-funnel

[justindad]

I have swaged soft lead (50:50 SOWW:COWW) down by 0.001”, even after the brass was sized by an M style expander.

[TD1886]

I have swaged soft lead (50:50 SOWW:COWW) down by 0.001”, even after the brass was sized by an M style expander.

That's what I've been trying to tell members, but I get pooped on. Thanks for mentioning it.

I like a lot of Lyman products. Have quite a few of their dies and moulds. I don't like that the M dies works the neck excessively especially the part that the bullet fits in easily. That's expanded way more then a standard die does. Yes it's nice to set bullets in when the the sized, primed, and powdered, cases are ready to do and you can pluck them out and load at a faster speed safely. When I talk about flaring I'm not talking the case mouth looks like a trumpet! I'm talking about a very gradual flare, one where about 1/2 or little more of the gascheck fits in it. I'm not going to lie to you and tell you there's an expander in which the case neck won't sometimes swage your softer cast bullets down. The M die is a sales gimmick. Sometimes your seater dies doesn't iron out what the M die opened and you'll never convince me that the entire neck has a grip on the bullet by using it. But if you like them use them.

[M-Tecs]

so.. i thought the load was on the high end as well, that's what started this process. I dropped to 2.8gr or so and the key holing began so it's been a long slow walk up to try to get to the bottom of it all.
the firearm is FA 83- throat is .357. I size to .358 after powder coating
i pulled a wadcutter today and it has been sized down to .356 by the cartridge.
like i said in the OP, i cast some new boolits with a harder mix (ben 11-12) and shot them this morning- no key holing but i am still convinced that i can shoot better if i get this cartridge sized better (it measures .355 with a pin gauge).

can i ask.. if i am to proceed with a single stage and an NOE die- is it reasonable to size then move the cartridge back to the dillon to drop powder, insert the boolit, and crimp?
speaking of crimp- i have next to no crimp and seem to doing fine (this is after crimping far more to see what that did to my results -as expected, made things worse or certainly no better).

You have lots of options a how to get your brass from swagging your bullets undersize. As you noted harder bullets are one way. Most dies have expanders sized for jacketed bullet. They tend to be less than ideal for cast. M-dies, NOE's system, RCBS Cowboy dies all were created to address this type of under expanding the brass for soft lead bullets. Brass also work hardens effecting the amount of spring back.

For soft bullets in a revolver, I have my best results when the brass is expanded enough so soft bullets remain larger than the throats. Unless it's for a single shot rifle proper crimps are required.

You may also have throats that are tighter than your barrel.

[justindad]

Sometimes your seater dies doesn't iron out what the M die opened and you'll never convince me that the entire neck has a grip on the bullet by using it.

I share that concern. I flare just barely enough to start the boolit, so that if I turn the die a 1/16th of a turn out the boolit can no longer seat in the brass. So far, my results are better than using RCBS cowboy expander. I’m using a Redding version, which may or may not be an exact duplicate of the Lyman M die.
*
What I really need is a custom diameter expander from Buffalo Arms or NOE, both of which I believe have the M profile.

[TD1886]

I share that concern. I flare just barely enough to start the boolit, so that if I turn the die a 1/16th of a turn out the boolit can no longer seat in the brass. So far, my results are better than using RCBS cowboy expander. I’m using a Redding version, which may or may not be an exact duplicate of the Lyman M die.
*
What I really need is a custom diameter expander from Buffalo Arms or NOE, both of which I believe have the M profile.

Here's a pic of Redding's premium expander. I think it is a damn good and heck of a lot better then the Lymn M type.

316219

[M-Tecs]

Here's a pic of Redding's premium expander. I think it is a damn good and heck of a lot better then the Lymn M type.

316219

I mostly use Redding dies. I tried one and sent it back. Only time I've ever done that with a Redding product. Nicely made but undersize for cast bullet. If it was .0035" larger it would have been great. It's designed for jacketed bullets.

[TD1886]

I mostly use Redding dies. I tried one and sent it back. Only time I've ever done that with a Redding product. Nicely made but undersize for cast bullet. If it was .0035" larger it would have been great. It's designed for jacketed bullets.

I was a huge Redding fan, but to tell you the truth they are too expensive. Then again everything else is today too. Long ago when I first started loading the only dies I would buy were RCBS and Redding. When RCBS changed to what they have today I quit them. I feel there in the raw steel dies were better. So now I'm mainly with Redding.

You are correct about that expander that if it were the correct size for cast they would be the cat's meow. Thanks for posting.

[sv44]

You guys are amazing- i have learned a lot from the past few days- thank you.
I am headed to the range today to see how things go with the following:
1) harder alloy as mentioned above (proven already not to keyhole)
2) sized the bullets to 0.357 rather than 0.358 (my barrel measures at 0.357) - curious if the slightly smaller diameter will seat better considering my cartridge limitations with less swaging)
3)a handful of the softer lead sized slightly smaller to see if they still keyhole

plans for moving forward
1) a very generous member PM'd me and offered a sample of wadcutter brass to try
2) have ordered a noe expander plug to see what that does for me
3) if the harder cast still proves to not keyhole then back down on my powder

One question, and i think it was alluded to in one of the responses- if i forego sizing the cartridge at all what down stream problems will this cause me (assuming they will still fit my cylinder)?

again, i can't thank you all enough for the education and support

[wilecoyote]

I mostly use Redding dies. I tried one and sent it back. Only time I've ever done that with a Redding product. Nicely made but undersize for cast bullet. If it was .0035" larger it would have been great. It's designed for jacketed bullets.

...until today i was convinced it was just my OCD
I am relieved to hear an authoritative opinion on the matter.
thanks about your statement_

[justindad]

I mostly use Redding dies. I tried one and sent it back. Only time I've ever done that with a Redding product. Nicely made but undersize for cast bullet. If it was .0035" larger it would have been great. It's designed for jacketed bullets.

My Redding premium expanders are too small, but work just good enough with hard lead and my barrels. I called Redding about this because the premium expander is marketed for lead, but the tech mentioned they were only good for hardball lead. The only place I truly prefer a Redding die is for their crimp dies.

[uscra112]

For revolvers, size your bullets to match the cylinder throats, not the barrel. This can become problematic with certain brands, notably Ruger, who all too often deliver throats that are smaller than the barrel. Using gage pins is the proper way to measure throats, but a bore gage, or even pushing a soft bullet through with a dowel, will do in a pinch. Ideally the throats are uniform and .001" larger than the barrel, and your bullet will be .0005" larger than the throats as it sits in the case prior to firing.

A cylinder with too-small throats can be honed to correct the relationship. There is a guy here who does this. Name escapes me at the moment.

[StrawHat]

…A cylinder with too-small throats can be honed to correct the relationship. There is a guy here who does this. Name escapes me at the moment.

Doug Guy is the fellow.

Kevin

[TD1886]

My Redding premium expanders are too small, but work just good enough with hard lead and my barrels. I called Redding about this because the premium expander is marketed for lead, but the tech mentioned they were only good for hardball lead. The only place I truly prefer a Redding die is for their crimp dies.

That's interesting because I've always heard that cast, no matter the hardness, always used less tight neck tension. Powder Coat I was told use the same neck tension as for jacketed.

[justindad]

That's interesting because I've always heard that cast, no matter the hardness, always used less tight neck tension. Powder Coat I was told use the same neck tension as for jacketed.

Both could be true, if hard lead doesn’t swage but does lose accuracy. I don’t really know.

[sv44]

i have a set of pins, i will do just that- thank you and everyone who have offered to help

[sv44]

what a rabbit hole ..this is where I am:
1) i have fixed the keyhole issue using harder cast (bhn 11-12) vs 8 that i originally used- i plan to melt this down and try again.
2) i have the expanded some brass and shot this with the harder cast

for what I do I can't see much difference (shoot paper at relatively short distances- my shooting needs to improve but they are hitting where I point at this point. so i plan to move ahead and work on my shooting, if/when I need to get this better I certainly know the direction to take

Thanks everyone for your help with this

[BJung]

First, you need to slug your barrel to discover what your actual bore is. If you have and your bore is .357, you're okay. If you haven't, the easiest suggestion is to drill a shallow hole into a 2x4 scrap or whatever thick pick of wood you have with a hole slightly larger than .358 or so. Then, find a lead sinker, melt the lead and pour the molten lead into the hole. Then, dig it out, grease it, and drive it through your revolver with a wooden dowel. A metal dowel could damage your barrel.. Get a micrometer and measure the bore and add .001". That's your bullet diameter. Some shooters like .002" over. As for your bullet OD and case ID, I might give it .001" to not swage your bullet too much. I tend to crimp just enough to remove the flare. I tested seating depth once: 2.8gr with the bullet seated flush to the case and 3.1gr BE with the case mouth at the first greast groove. Accuracy was about the same and I'd give he slight edge to the latter. I'm shooting my .38 loads through a S&W Model 66. If it were me, I'd separate my bullets by weight.

What brass are you using? Separate your brass by headstamp. RP brass I measured has a .0135" wall thickness. A Win brass case I measured has a .0155" wall thickness. From my research, the best bhn for 38 special is 8-10 bhn. I forgot which headstamp has the thickest walls but I use those for my glue gun bullets because I can just insert the glue gun bullets into the case and it'll hold. If you want to try glue gun bullets, just buy the worse (1 star rated) glue rods that won't stick, some PAM, and a mold.

And last, yes, a brass case can swage a lead bullet. Use your kinetic bullet puller to pull out a cartridge and measure the bullet diameter.

[StrawHat]

NEVER use a wooden dowel to drive a bullet into or out of a bore. When it shatters, it is an absolute PITA to remove as the pieces wedge themselves into the bore. A brass or aluminum rod is what you need.

Kevin

[uscra112]

NEVER use a wooden dowel to drive a bullet into or out of a bore. When it shatters, it is an absolute PITA to remove as the pieces wedge themselves into the bore. A brass or aluminum rod is what you need.

Kevin

Beat me to it. Isn't a gunsmith alive who hasn't had a gun brought to him with a shattered wooden rod wedged in the bore!

[Groo]

Groo here
1# the softer the boolet the slower you can drive it
2# the softer the boolet the easier it will slug up [expand in barrel due to pressure]
The harder ,,,reverse the above
You are shooting a gun [NA] designed for hot loads,, the keyhole rounds are too light increase loading and test[don't go over max]
The keyhole is usually caused by undersized bullet not spinning up [will lead the bore] or a load so light [to slow]
Lastly seat deep and crimp OVER the boolet with a good firm role crimp ,,, ever see factory target loads NOT heavily crimped??????

[uscra112]

.......ever see factory target loads NOT heavily crimped??????

Y'know,, when I started out with the aforementioned Colt, I copied factory target loads - seat deep, crimp over the end of the bullet. But being more of a rifle kinda guy, I tried moving them out so the bullet was into the throat. Groups shrank. My final load was, honest-to-Pete, a fairly hard semi-wadcutter, seated as far out as I could, over 3.0 grains of Bullseye. At 15 yards, 5 would go into one hole, every time, unless I got careless. I had a guy out in Idaho trying to recruit me when he saw me do that.

[sv44]

need some clarification- do you consider BHN 11-12 hard or soft (i have been lead to believe it is on the soft side although not as soft as the near pure lead I made the original ones out of).

[uscra112]

Pure lead is about 8. Those semiwadcutters I mentioned were ~15 BHN.

[sv44]

thank you sir

[TD1886]

thank you sir

Don't forget that Elmer Keith shot a lot of tin/lead alloy and he pushed it hard and it worked. It's not as hard as the Antimony/Arsenic/Lead/Tin alloys.

[sv44]

update on my progress:
1) no more key holing with a bit harder lead
2) using either expanded cartridge on a separate press or expanding it with the dillon SDB makes no difference to my shooting- i am not good enough to see how it changes things and hope to get there
3) wadcutter brass vs starline brass seems to make no difference so far

i fully admit my limited abilities makes the difference negligible at this point- i appreciate everyones input and help in this

[Shiloh]

These NOE expanders come in all kinds of sized. They are awesome.
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/product-category/expanders/expander-plug-pistol/

Shiloh