Winchester 1876 Action Strength

[shrapnel]

I was just reading in my 1876 Winchester book about the history of the 1876. There have been many stories spread about how weak the 1876 Winchester action is and I find it interesting to see what the actual field test was to determine just how weak/strong that action is. Everyone parrots the same old saying about how weak it is and yet this study seems to nullify that rumor.

Here is a picture of a blown up 1876 that the action held and yet the barrel was blown completely off the action...



https://i.imgur.com/GSW8nEw.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Kri7BkI.jpg

[veeman]

I'm curious how those loads were assemble to even be fired? How can 203 grains of Black powder plus 5,6 bullets be loaded into a chamber?

[ATCDoktor]

I'm curious how those loads were assemble to even be fired? How can 203 grains of Black powder plus 5,6 bullets be loaded into a chamber?

It’s not that hard.

All you have to do is load it jus like a muzzleloader.

Put an empty primed case in the chamber, pour the intended powder charge down the barrel, seat the desired number of bullets on powder charge, cock hammer, fire rifle.

[flatnose]

I take it that is the 76 I have read about at least once? Glad to finally see it.

[Ajohns]

I remember reading this article years ago, and thinking, wow!
Now, if one were to donate a new made 76 and try tests with smokeless powders:popcorn:
Not a good idea I'd think

[veeman]

That last load had to have been extended a couple inches into the barrel I would think. Too bad there wasn't youtube back then, that woulda made a fine video!

[HWooldridge]

Toggle locks are used on a variety of mechanisms - they are quite strong if the proper tolerances are observed. Only downside about a rifle action is that they can't be easily adjusted to account for wear.

[Rockingkj]

I had not heard that 76 was a weak action only the 1873. The 76 was designed for large calibers. That test should prove not a weak action. Impressive abuse.

[John Taylor]

I have personal knowledge of what happens when you have a case rupture on a 76. Lots of smoke and bent side covers and a question of what happened. The frame and bolt were unharmed. I was a little shook up after. The ammo was old and apparently the brass was not in good shape.

[Kai]

I have personal knowledge of what happens when you have a case rupture on a 76. Lots of smoke and bent side covers and a question of what happened. The frame and bolt were unharmed. I was a little shook up after. The ammo was old and apparently the brass was not in good shape.

What caliber 76 and was the ammo old factory black powder ammo or old reloads? If reloads, were they smokeless or BP>

[eastbank]

my winchester 1876 made in the late 1880,s in 45-60 is in ex fireing condition and i have killed deer with it and my favorite load has been a 300 gr cast bullet with 23 grs imr 4198( no filler needed) goes into 3.5 " 5 shot groups at 100 yards from a rest. cases were made out of shortened new 45-70 cases and rims thinned. cases are just neck sized after firing with no sings of pressure at all.

[indian joe]

I have always been a tad sceptical of the truth of the load in that winchester article - Oliver Winchester originated as a shirt salesman and this was the era of the snake oil salesmen / medicine show con artists . That aside the description falls pretty much in line with the pictures "Shrapnel" posted - of the toggle action holding and the barrel blown.

From another forum I saw pictures and load info for a 45/75 long range target cartridge with 450 grain PP boolit over 90 grains of powder - loaded and sold by winchester for use in the '76 - (an oversize round that could only be single loaded from the top) this pretty much puts paid to the common idea that the action "wouldnt stand the increased pressure" of heavier loads used in the 1886 at the time (we're still pre smokeless). Its a BIG action as it is - scaling it further to take the longer 45/70 etc rounds would have made it impractical I think.

I have a repro of the 76, 86, 71 winchesters (Uberti, Chiappa, Browning) the 76 is a sweet piece of machinery - if you have not shot one you dont know what you missing, the other two are tanks - most blokes proly break their shoulder before they break the gun with those .....but that 76 is just sooooo nice to work !

From my looking the 76 is just a scaled up 73 (couple of minor differences in the design) - cant see where one would be "weak" and the other strong ??

[Texas by God]

The Luger and BAR are also strong toggle link actions.


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[Ajohns]

The Luger and BAR are also strong toggle link actions.


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Very true
Though the Winchester has gravity and your hand on the enabler;-)

[elk hunter]

I don't believe that the picture and the testimonial are of the same vintage or rifle. The rifle in the picture appears very used i.e. not much finish. The date given is 1877, the rifle should have been new or nearly so. The quality of the picture is better than those I've seen from that era. At the bottom of the picture there appears to be two rubber capped aluminum legs possibly for a camera mount.

Possibly someone has found the original rifle and taken a recent picture but I'm very skeptical.

Just my $0.02 worth.

[shrapnel]

I don't believe that the picture and the testimonial are of the same vintage or rifle. The rifle in the picture appears very used i.e. not much finish. The date given is 1877, the rifle should have been new or nearly so. The quality of the picture is better than those I've seen from that era. At the bottom of the picture there appears to be two rubber capped aluminum legs possibly for a camera mount.

Possibly someone has found the original rifle and taken a recent picture but I'm very skeptical.

Just my $0.02 worth.


That was not the intent of the post. The write up and the gun are not connected at all, just the association of the write up and the rifle 150 years later showing that the action held under extremely high pressure.

[John Taylor]

What caliber 76 and was the ammo old factory black powder ammo or old reloads? If reloads, were they smokeless or BP>

Old original black powder. 45-75.

[Jeff Michel]

Thanks for the posting, I'd like a nickel for every time someone told me those actions were somehow inferior. Uberti proofs their 73/76's to 28000 psi. If the actions were weak or inherently unsafe why do they chamber them in 44/357 magnum?

[indian joe]

Thanks for the posting, I'd like a nickel for every time someone told me those actions were somehow inferior. Uberti proofs their 73/76's to 28000 psi. If the actions were weak or inherently unsafe why do they chamber them in 44/357 magnum?

I thought the 44mag chambering was on the upper edge of sensible when it came out - must be ok or they would not done it - it would kill a brass gun ('66) - know of a couple of those got bent with warmish '92 loads in 44/40

[Rockindaddy]

Shrapnel: I really liked your post. I have a couple of 1876's One is a Chiappa in 45-60 Win that I shoot 4759 and 3031 with 300gr jacketed and cast flat points. I drive the jacketed flat points pretty hard with the 3031. Almost a full case load. The other 76' Original in 50-95 Win I shoot with cast 325 gr flat points and 4759 powder. Have yet to bang Bambi with either rifle. I just look at the links on the Chiappa and wonder if I am punishing them with the smokeless load.

[Jeff Michel]

My thoughts exactly, I doubt Uberti wants to go to court any more than any other gun maker. I would imagine there's a decent safety margin on top of their proof loads.

[john.k]

In many tests in the times (1870s) Remington Rolling blocks proved impossible to blow up with blackpowder.

[indian joe]

Shrapnel: I really liked your post. I have a couple of 1876's One is a Chiappa in 45-60 Win that I shoot 4759 and 3031 with 300gr jacketed and cast flat points. I drive the jacketed flat points pretty hard with the 3031. Almost a full case load. The other 76' Original in 50-95 Win I shoot with cast 325 gr flat points and 4759 powder. Have yet to bang Bambi with either rifle. I just look at the links on the Chiappa and wonder if I am punishing them with the smokeless load.

I liked the post also ---- really valuable information to connect winchester's "experiment" and this modern blowup, different circumstances, 140 years between, but similar end result = action held, barrel blew. thank the lucky stars he wasnt shooting offhand!!!

[indian joe]

Shrapnel: I really liked your post. I have a couple of 1876's One is a Chiappa in 45-60 Win that I shoot 4759 and 3031 with 300gr jacketed and cast flat points. I drive the jacketed flat points pretty hard with the 3031. Almost a full case load. The other 76' Original in 50-95 Win I shoot with cast 325 gr flat points and 4759 powder. Have yet to bang Bambi with either rifle. I just look at the links on the Chiappa and wonder if I am punishing them with the smokeless load.

have you chronoed those loads???

My 45/75 Uberti gets a flat 1500FPS with straight blackpowder and a 330grain cast boolit - I reckon that would go clear through most large furry things it hit

[ohiochuck]

shrapnel
Thanks for posting!
Jim