Loose Sage's gas checks - base first through Lee Sizer?

[huntinlever]

Hi guys -

With my more recent mold, the 46-405VG from Accurate, I will have quite a few bullets where the Sage's gas checks will not "snap" on at all, just fit very loosely (no grip at all - just fall off) on the bullet shank. In the past I had some experience with this with the 46-425Q, also from Accurate. (Not blaming the molds, at all, of course - I am a huge fan of Tom's molds, all I use). What I found is that if I put the bullets in the Lee Sizer nose down so that the base goes through the sizer first, I will get a much more forceful crimping than when going the "normal" way of base down, nose first.

These bullets are 94-3-3, lately oven-treated and icewater quenched (will probably quit worrying so much and just going back to dropping as cast into a water bucket to quench). Concerned about nose deformation if going nose-down. Also concerned about stress and wear on the sizer, because it will often require considerably more force this way than when doing it the normal way. On the other hand, the GC's are firmly fit going base-first.

Thoughts?

[Minerat]

Why not size the bullet first nose up then reverse and seat the gas check. It is 2 steps but I find it is easier to seat the check since you are only sizing it to the base. This has solved the problem when I have loose checks. I have a adapter from NOE that lets me use a top punch for the nose down cycle.

https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/bullet-casting-reloading/sizing-tools/bushing-push-through-size-die/top-punch-holder/

[Dusty Bannister]

Consider polishing the entry taper to the Lee sizer die as well. Are you using any type of lube to ease the passage of the casting?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I'd use a sizing lube.
but it you are going PC, then maybe not.
I can't imagine you'd have nose deformation on a heat treated 94-3-3, 45cal boolit.

[huntinlever]

Sorry guys, I should have said, I do roll them on a pad with RCBS lube first. And thanks jon, I was wondering if this was hard enough not to worry about it.

Minerat, I could try that. I'd presume the pressure required to go base (GC) first was actually what is bearing down and crimping the checks on better. Going nose first, there is a very light resistance, but I figured that is because this is sizing down 0.001, not the gc's so much.

So I guess the question is that given I do lube, even with the additional resistance, am I good to go? Dusty, you mean polishing (like, extra fine emery or something like that), not opening up in any way, right?

[Dusty Bannister]

Yes, just to polish the entry and size area, sometimes that part of the die looks OK, but a metal polish can make a difference some find. No need to get aggressive and remove metal by excessive metal removal. Think Semi-Chrome or similar polishing agent.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

after you polish the die entry as Dusty suggests, and you still notice a major difference between nose first and base first, then more investigation is needed. Maybe be sure the GC edge gets lube?
.
The technique I use is to pre-lube the die. I push a lubed/sized boolit through the die, this will leave a lube residue on the die. Sometimes, I only need to do this once every 10 boolits or so.

[Electrod47]

I'm gonna save this one.

[mehavey]

I put the bullets in the Lee Sizer nose down so that the base goes through the sizer first,
I will get a much more forceful crimping than when going the "normal" way of base down,
nose first.I'm fascinated. How does the gas-check crimp "more tightly" onto the shank going through
a sizing die (which has a fixed minimum diameter no matter what direction you look at it)
. . . "backwards" ?

[mdi]

Just an old geezer's thought; since the sizing die is solid and the ID is constant from end to end, what does it matter which way an object is pushed through? Even if the die's ID is tapered, the bullet will be sized to the smallest diameter. Not doubting OP's experience, but perhaps the GC is on crooked when bullet is sized nose first? Or the pressure from sizing a hard bullet and the ram distorts the GC when bullet is sized nose first? I'd try some first to see if there is any distortion of the nose if sized bottom first and see if the GC is actually tighter when shoved through the die first...

[huntinlever]

Can't give you a reason as to why it's "tighter" going in base first, just that it's significantly tougher for me to push through than if nose first. It meets pretty stiff resistance then gives way, whereas the normal way is quite light, before it sizes on through. If I were hazard a guess, maybe the corner of the checks, where the sides meet the base, are somewhat thicker than the faces of the check? Or the sharp angle hits the die taper more aggressively once it starts in?

No idea, but that's my experience of it. I have seen anecdotally on the web here and there people having the same experience, and doing it for that reason as well. My only concern doing it that way is if I'm possibly damaging the sizer over the long haul.

[huntinlever]

after you polish the die entry as Dusty suggests, and you still notice a major difference between nose first and base first, then more investigation is needed. Maybe be sure the GC edge gets lube?
.
The technique I use is to pre-lube the die. I push a lubed/sized boolit through the die, this will leave a lube residue on the die. Sometimes, I only need to do this once every 10 boolits or so.

Thanks Jon, do you mean you don't lube all the bullets, just your first one and then every 10th or so?

[huntinlever]

Yes, just to polish the entry and size area, sometimes that part of the die looks OK, but a metal polish can make a difference some find. No need to get aggressive and remove metal by excessive metal removal. Think Semi-Chrome or similar polishing agent.

Great. Thanks Dusty.

[Dusty Bannister]

I have very little experience with the aluminum gas checks, particularly those made with the check maker style. When I am seating the checks with the Lee push through sizer, the resistance entering the die, nose first, presses the skirt down and created a fold instead of a square base. When seating the check, base first, it pulled the check firmly against the base of the bullet, leaving a slightly rounded base edge.

Nose first would result in less skirt to grip the side of the bullet shank. The crimp would be similar to seating and crimping in the in/out lube sizers like RCBS and Lyman in the normal base entering the die first.

I suspect that the aluminum check material was too thin and is a factor in this method not being satisfactory. I did try to polish the entry taper, and decided it just was not worth the effort. Others may not have my experience or perhaps use a thicker material.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Thanks Jon, do you mean you don't lube all the bullets, just your first one and then every 10th or so?

I usually use a lubed/sized boolit from a previous batch what has lube in the lube grooves. I reuse that same lubed boolit every tenth time, or so. It doesn't take much. I just seen you are using alum GCs. Alum is grabby in a steel die...and will need lube.

[huntinlever]

I usually use a lubed/sized boolit from a previous batch what has lube in the lube grooves. I reuse that same lubed boolit every tenth time, or so. It doesn't take much. I just seen you are using alum GCs. Alum is grabby in a steel die...and will need lube.

Thanks.

No, to clarify, I only use copper checks, only Sage's copper .458's anymore. I think Dusty might have been indicating his experience with Al checks?

[Barry54]

Can't give you a reason as to why it's "tighter" going in base first, just that it's significantly tougher for me to push through than if nose first. It meets pretty stiff resistance then gives way, whereas the normal way is quite light, before it sizes on through. If I were hazard a guess, maybe the corner of the checks, where the sides meet the base, are somewhat thicker than the faces of the check? Or the sharp angle hits the die taper more aggressively once it starts in?

No idea, but that's my experience of it. I have seen anecdotally on the web here and there people having the same experience, and doing it for that reason as well. My only concern doing it that way is if I'm possibly damaging the sizer over the long haul.

So the gas checks crimp on tighter going through base first or it’s harder to stroke the handle?

Have you tried peeling them off?

[Gohon]

Just a silly thought but when sizing a cast, the sizer doesn't remove lead as you know but displaces it. I would think the lead will move towards the area of least resistance which would be towards the open end of the die...thus a tighter check. Just a silly thought...

[uscra112]

Does this happen with Hornady gas checks? Many moons ago I gave up on Sages because of their incorrect dimensioning.