Lyman 427122 in Marlin 45-70 Cowboy

[SoonerEd]

Been testing loads with a Marlin 1895 Cowboy (cut rifling) with the 330 HP bullet with a PB.

I'm loading AA5744. Bullets are WW at around 12.5-13 BHN with WLL blue carnuba. Bullets are sized 2/1,000 over grove diameter and the brass is expanded to 2/1,000 neck tension. A medium crimp with a FCD is used. In the 1,400-1,500 fps range I don't have leading. In the 1,600 - 1,700 range I start getting some small flakes of leading. Is this about what I should expect for this bullet hardness, being plain base, and lubed not PC?

I'm trying to develop a hunting load so don't want to use harder lead. Is this the fps I should expect without going to a bullet with a GC?

[BLAHUT]

I am shooting my 45/70 with a 500+gr FP bullet in pure lead with 27 grs of 5744, lubed, at about 1200 FPS, very accurate for me.

[SoonerEd]

I am shooting my 45/70 with a 500+gr FP bullet in pure lead with 27 grs of 5744, lubed, at about 1200 FPS, very accurate for me.

What bullet? Might be good for my Pedersolli Rolling block.

[Walks]

I've shot many #457122 in My Marlin 1895CB.
Using 5744 in all varieties.
I use 20/1 and these days Powder Coat them. The Lyman books from 48th -51st all have the same charges using 5744.

Back 25yrs ago when I started loading for this rifle I used #2 and 50/50. Can't remember if 5744 had come out yet.
The bullets were unsized and hand lubed. A very light roll crimp was used just to ensure smooth chambering. I use a very old set of Lyman dies from the 1960's. Never had bullet set back.

I believe that Abomination of a lee crimp die maybe the cause of leading above 1700fps.
It distorts the case mouth and causes drag as the bullet leaves the case mouth.

[barkerwc4362]

I shoot the #457122 in my Browning 1886 and H&R Officer's Model Trapdoor. Not the same loads! I cast mine out of 1-30 and paper patch them. I have shot the #457122 out of an early Marlin 1895 with the 22" barrel and 8 groove rifling. I tried paper patching, but the rifling would not consistently cut the paper and I would get occasional flyers. Shooting as cast, lubed bullets accuracy was good, but I was using 4227 and shotgun buffer. Velocities were in the 1300 - 1400 fps range. That would be plenty for deer. The 1886 load is the load recommended by Elmer Keith which sends the paper patched bullet in the high 1600 - low 1700 fps range. The Officer's Model load is the trap door starting load of 3031 from the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. Cast 1-30 the bullet will expand and for deer you don't need super velocity.
Bill

[quack1]

I'm trying to develop a hunting load so don't want to use harder lead. Is this the fps I should expect without going to a bullet with a GC?[/QUOTE]

In my experience, the answer to that question is yes. Over the years, I've found that starting to get leading is common between 1500 and 1600fps with plain base, lubed, ACWW in any caliber, not just 45-70. If you are getting accuracy, 1400-1500fps is more than enough for deer.

[scattershot]

The 45/70 was designed to shoot through a horse at 200 yards. You really don’t need that kind of velocity, unless you’re hunting mastodons or something.

[redhawk0]

I shoot this boolit in the 45-70...I settled on 1250-1300fps for whitetails....I've taken several with this combination through my Henry. It really doesn't need to be punishing on both ends....just make it fun.

redhawk

[Castaway]

Scattergun, there was no such requirement for the 45-70 to penetrate a horse. While we’re at it, nor was there such a requirement for the 45 Colt. I’m not sure where the story started, but probably some gun writer years ago started the rumors for both cartridges. No horses were shot during the acceptance trials for either.

[indian joe]

Been testing loads with a Marlin 1895 Cowboy (cut rifling) with the 330 HP bullet with a PB.

I'm loading AA5744. Bullets are WW at around 12.5-13 BHN with WLL blue carnuba. Bullets are sized 2/1,000 over grove diameter and the brass is expanded to 2/1,000 neck tension. A medium crimp with a FCD is used. In the 1,400-1,500 fps range I don't have leading. In the 1,600 - 1,700 range I start getting some small flakes of leading. Is this about what I should expect for this bullet hardness, being plain base, and lubed not PC?

I'm trying to develop a hunting load so don't want to use harder lead. Is this the fps I should expect without going to a bullet with a GC?

I think the answer is yes
I run my 1886 at a whisker over 1500FPS with a 335grain boolit (half WW and half pure lead mix) using a duplex load 7 grains 4227 under blackpowder + 45thou HDPE overpowder wad

[SoonerEd]

I've shot many #457122 in My Marlin 1895CB.
Using 5744 in all varieties.
I use 20/1 and these days Powder Coat them. The Lyman books from 48th -51st all have the same charges using 5744.

Back 25yrs ago when I started loading for this rifle I used #2 and 50/50. Can't remember if 5744 had come out yet.
The bullets were unsized and hand lubed. A very light roll crimp was used just to ensure smooth chambering. I use a very old set of Lyman dies from the 1960's. Never had bullet set back.

I believe that Abomination of a lee crimp die maybe the cause of leading above 1700fps.
It distorts the case mouth and causes drag as the bullet leaves the case mouth.

I'll try a slight roll crimp with my RCBS seater and see how that goes. I'm fairly new to casting rifle bullets but an experienced reloader...learned from benchrest shooters. So, I understand loading principles with j-words. My knowledge falls off with cast bullets. But, learning.

[SoonerEd]

I'm trying to develop a hunting load so don't want to use harder lead. Is this the fps I should expect without going to a bullet with a GC?

In my experience, the answer to that question is yes. Over the years, I've found that starting to get leading is common between 1500 and 1600fps with plain base, lubed, ACWW in any caliber, not just 45-70. If you are getting accuracy, 1400-1500fps is more than enough for deer.[/QUOTE]

I'm getting less than 2.0 MOA in the 1,400-1,500 range. So, I'll try to tune a load in that range which is 30.0 to 32.0 grains of 5744. The gun shoots 1.25 MOA with Hornady 300 HP j-words which are not the most accurate bullet.

[Frank V]

Many, many, Bison were killed with the .45/70 BP loads that didn’t get much over 1200fps! That is a fun velocity with a 405gr bullet.

[Sgt H]

My go to cast boolit deer load in the 45-70 is the Lyman 457122 loaded over 30 grains of 5744 for about 1450fps. The Lyman/Gould 457122 dates back to the late 1800's and velocities obtainable with BP, 1400-1500fps. I have used this boolit cast of 30/1, 20/1 and 96/2/2 on deer and all performed well. The 30/1 would start to lead a bit after a dozen shots or so, none with the 20/1 and 96/2/2. Even at the 1450fps velocity level the boolit would typically lose the front half going through deer at close range. Several times I had 2-3 exit holes on close shots and have often found several fragments under the hide on the exit side of the ribcage. The bottom half, which essentially becomes a 45 caliber wadcutter weighing 185-200 grains has always exited. No need to push this boolit to 1600-1700 fps IMHO.

[SoonerEd]

My go to cast boolit deer load in the 45-70 is the Lyman 457122 loaded over 30 grains of 5744 for about 1450fps. The Lyman/Gould 457122 dates back to the late 1800's and velocities obtainable with BP, 1400-1500fps. I have used this boolit cast of 30/1, 20/1 and 96/2/2 on deer and all performed well. The 30/1 would start to lead a bit after a dozen shots or so, none with the 20/1 and 96/2/2. Even at the 1450fps velocity level the boolit would typically lose the front half going through deer at close range. Several times I had 2-3 exit holes on close shots and have often found several fragments under the hide on the exit side of the ribcage. The bottom half, which essentially becomes a 45 caliber wadcutter weighing 185-200 grains has always exited. No need to push this boolit to 1600-1700 fps IMHO.

Interesting that your load is in the range that looks promising to fine tune a load of between 30.0-32.0 for my rifle.