How soon after WQ'ing and/or oven treating do we size - antimony?

[huntinlever]

I asked in another thread but probably best in its own thread. I know it's been discussed before - might have even been in my own thread. But I've searched and I can't find it. IIRC both members Larry Gibson and bigslug talked about it.

They gave, or I think they gave, info on how long after "hardening" by whatever method (water quenching, oven treating, some combination thereof) to size. This being based on the idea that the higher antimony content, not only will the bullet continue to harden, but it will expand somewhat - so you may size, but then the bullet will be larger once it settles out. I think I recall a member even saying the bullet after early sizing would no longer fit in their handgun.

I think I recall being concerned about stress on the sizer, so always sized as soon as the bullets were dry from their quenching. I think Larry disabused me of the notion, saying the sizing die was much, much harder than the lead-alloy bullet, so not to worry.

I recall a correlation between say, 3% antimony and a 24 hour rest period after quenching; 6%, 48 to 72 hours. Something like that but I am not remembering the exact details.

I use 94-3-3. Recommendations, bigslug, Larry or others, on how long to wait after heat-treating and quenching, to size the bullets?

[Dusty Bannister]

I generally size as soon as cool enough to handle and after drying. My needs for precision are not all that great so any "growth" while hardening is not much of a concern. If you did have a concern, use a smaller size die and see how that works out.

[rintinglen]

When I need a hard bullet, I heat treat them after sizing, then tumble lube them with two coats of BLL.

[huntinlever]

Guys, I want to say, a member kindly came forward and just said it plainly and correctly. Bigslug has done the same. I'm just overthinking this like crazy, a lifelong issue for this guy. "Are you sure you're not making a solution for a problem that doesn't exist?"

Apologies to invite help, when at the end of the day I am being pretty ridiculous. It's a 45-70 at 125 yards, not a precision rifle at 1000 yards. I invite mods to close at will gratitude to all.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

When I need a hard bullet, I heat treat them after sizing, then tumble lube them with two coats of BLL.
I do much like rintinglen says, if I want a hard boolit.
1. Cast.
2. do not water drop.
3. size and install GC, using sizing lube if necessary.
4. Oven heat treat, let sit a week, if possible.
5. run through lubesizer to lube with traditional lube.

[TD1886]

I don't feel you should size as soon as they have cooled from castings because they are still soft. Ever notice dropping your bullets on a towel to air cool them and some hit others and the dents they put in them? That's because they are very soft coming from the mould. The molecules in the bullet are still trying to settle down. I prefer to wait a day or two. This is especially true of long skinny bullets. The newest one that comes to mind is the new LEE 145 grain 6.5 bullet. It has a long tapered skinny nose. An older one is the 6.5 Cruise Missile. So give them time to settle down and harden some.

[huntinlever]

Thanks TD, that does help. Yes, definitely (on the towel dropping). To be honest that's one of the reasons I never took much to air cooling - my perception anyway, of course, of the hardening, but also the convenience of not worrying about dinging them up as much when dropping onto a towel in the water bucket (I also "slow their fall" some by dropping on a slit through an old t-shirt...they bounce and roll into the drink).

Interestingly, now that you mention it, even though I'm randomly dropping bullets into the drink, in all the years I've done it this way I can't recall ever seeing a bullet deformed by impact on other bullets.

So, thanks, I get it, softening. How's this look guys (adapted from above), and comments by another member, with regrets can't recall who).


Cast
Drop on towel and air cool
Wait a couple days
Push-through size and seat gas checks, with RCBS lube or similar
Wash, rinse
Oven-treat
"age" a week or so
Lube in my lubrisizer, which is 0.461, or +0.001 from the sized bullet (at 0.460).



Good?

(Or, given this is a 45-70 brush gun....quit fussing, cast, quench, dry, size and lube, all on the same day. Wait a bit, let them age, load and go to town at the range).

[TD1886]

Thanks TD, that does help. Yes, definitely (on the towel dropping). To be honest that's one of the reasons I never took much to air cooling - my perception anyway, of course, of the hardening, but also the convenience of not worrying about dinging them up as much when dropping onto a towel in the water bucket (I also "slow their fall" some by dropping on a slit through an old t-shirt...they bounce and roll into the drink).

Interestingly, now that you mention it, even though I'm randomly dropping bullets into the drink, in all the years I've done it this way I can't recall ever seeing a bullet deformed by impact on other bullets.

So, thanks, I get it, softening. How's this look guys (adapted from above), and comments by another member, with regrets can't recall who).


Cast
Drop on towel and air cool
Wait a couple days
Push-through size and seat gas checks, with RCBS lube or similar
Wash, rinse
Oven-treat
"age" a week or so
Lube in my lubrisizer, which is 0.461, or +0.001 from the sized bullet (at 0.460).



Good?

(Or, given this is a 45-70 brush gun....quit fussing, cast, quench, dry, size and lube, all on the same day. Wait a bit, let them age, load and go to town at the range).

Well lets see pretty good. When I towel drop to air cool I make an effort to drop them on an unoccupied part of the towel. On the time to age bullet I'm firm on two weeks. Some prefer 10 days. Sounds like you're doing pretty well.

Now maybe I can help you on your 45-70. I shoot one too as that's my handle here. It's a Browning 1886 Carbine. Most, not all, 45-70 chambers should accept a cartridge loaded with a bullet as fat as .462 to .463. Mine does. Next up I made a die to just neck size the portion of my case but only down to where the bullet base will end up seated. After a few firings from new the cases will swell out evening all the way around. I have no problems levering these cartridged into my rifle's chamber. Remember I have a carbine with the 20 inch barrel and with "carbine" sight which are front sight is just a blade (no bead) and the real is the ladder sight with the elevator. Couple of summers ago I wanted to shoot at a one gallon water jug at 400 yards. I had absolutely no ideal where to set the rear sight, so I done two things. I putt a big piece of cardboard up and the jug set on top of it. I'll explain better. The jug was in a "Y" of a tree and the cardboard stapled under it. I took a guess at the sight and fired a few shots. Would go down on the ATV and check the cardboard. Once I got on the paper I could eventually raise the sight and bullet impact and I was zeroed. I hit the gallon over and over. I was very happy with that, but the thing that really made my mouth drop open is that when I was checking that cardboard there were bullets cutting one another. Sometimes two, sometimes 3. The rifle didn't shoot that way until I changed the bullet diameter and neck sized the cases. Another reason I just sized case just for the bullet depth is I got tired of cases giving up the ghost running them in full length sizer dies. Hope this helps you out and thanks for your kind comments.

TD

[gwpercle]

Size them first , then heat treat .
If you size them after heat treating you cold work the lead surface and soften it back to where you started .
Also , sizing a soft boolit is easier than sizing a hard heat treated boolit .

Bottom line is you should ....
... cast em' , size em' , heat treat em' , lube em' , load em' and Choot Em' !
Gary

[NuJudge]

It would be better to cast to the size you want, then drop from the mold into the water. If you need to put on a gas check, use a lubricator/sizer die that is the as-cast size of the bullet.

Accuracy is best with an as-cast bullet, and any cold work of Lead will actually result in a softer bullet through Recrystallization.

If you have to size the bullet down, you would probably do well to heat treat after sizing.

[huntinlever]

It would be better to cast to the size you want, then drop from the mold into the water. If you need to put on a gas check, use a lubricator/sizer die that is the as-cast size of the bullet.

Accuracy is best with an as-cast bullet, and any cold work of Lead will actually result in a softer bullet through Recrystallization.

If you have to size the bullet down, you would probably do well to heat treat after sizing.

Great point, I get it and hadn't thought of that. The problem is if I asked Tom at Accurate for a 0.460, and changed up alloys, not certain at all I'd end up with .460 so a safety margin was the .461. Seems the best way forward is to size after a couple days, then oven treat, lube and rest a couple of weeks?

[huntinlever]

Well lets see pretty good. When I towel drop to air cool I make an effort to drop them on an unoccupied part of the towel. On the time to age bullet I'm firm on two weeks. Some prefer 10 days. Sounds like you're doing pretty well.

Now maybe I can help you on your 45-70. I shoot one too as that's my handle here. It's a Browning 1886 Carbine. Most, not all, 45-70 chambers should accept a cartridge loaded with a bullet as fat as .462 to .463. Mine does. Next up I made a die to just neck size the portion of my case but only down to where the bullet base will end up seated. After a few firings from new the cases will swell out evening all the way around. I have no problems levering these cartridged into my rifle's chamber. Remember I have a carbine with the 20 inch barrel and with "carbine" sight which are front sight is just a blade (no bead) and the real is the ladder sight with the elevator. Couple of summers ago I wanted to shoot at a one gallon water jug at 400 yards. I had absolutely no ideal where to set the rear sight, so I done two things. I putt a big piece of cardboard up and the jug set on top of it. I'll explain better. The jug was in a "Y" of a tree and the cardboard stapled under it. I took a guess at the sight and fired a few shots. Would go down on the ATV and check the cardboard. Once I got on the paper I could eventually raise the sight and bullet impact and I was zeroed. I hit the gallon over and over. I was very happy with that, but the thing that really made my mouth drop open is that when I was checking that cardboard there were bullets cutting one another. Sometimes two, sometimes 3. The rifle didn't shoot that way until I changed the bullet diameter and neck sized the cases. Another reason I just sized case just for the bullet depth is I got tired of cases giving up the ghost running them in full length sizer dies. Hope this helps you out and thanks for your kind comments.

TD

Well one, that's an incredible story of your long-distance shooting! Secondly, that's interesting to me that you neck size. I'd always full-length sized on the premise these are straight-wall (or mild taper) brass. I'm going to return to isolating out a few simple variables and hope for the best, so tucking this away as an option. Many thanks.

[huntinlever]

Size them first , then heat treat .
If you size them after heat treating you cold work the lead surface and soften it back to where you started .
Also , sizing a soft boolit is easier than sizing a hard heat treated boolit .

Bottom line is you should ....
... cast em' , size em' , heat treat em' , lube em' , load em' and Choot Em' !
Gary

Thanks. Basically, doing just that. Looking for cooler weather - but always am! - to get down to hunting!

[TD1886]

The old saying "The less you do to a bullet to load it, the better it is".

[TD1886]

Size them first , then heat treat .
If you size them after heat treating you cold work the lead surface and soften it back to where you started .
Also , sizing a soft boolit is easier than sizing a hard heat treated boolit .

Bottom line is you should ....
... cast em' , size em' , heat treat em' , lube em' , load em' and Choot Em' !
Gary

Hi Gary, just to talk with you not argue. I've heard that a lot and for years on the CB forum. Here's one thing that always pops into my head, and many here in the past have said the, and that when you shoot your cast bullet it's getting sized down in your bore and pretty drastically I might say, and they say that softens your bullet. I can't tell you from hundred of thousands bullets I've dug up both jacketed and cast I've never was able to tell the cast bullets were softer. I do agree with you however, that sizing after heating is a reversal in steps. They should only be check and lubed with no sizing involved.

It would be interesting if someone could test bullet hardness before sizing and immediately after sizing to see.

[Larry Gibson]

I've shot thousands of WQ'd cast bullet over the years. The BHN of recovered bullets [shot at 2900 fps out of a 31" barrel) remained close the BHN of those bullets before shooting them. Those bullets were sized down .004 - .006" by the bore and lube. I've not found any change in BHN with any AC'd or WQ'd bullets over the years. I generally don't size down more than .002 - .003 with any cast bullets in a single sizing regardless of AC'd or WQ'd.

To answer the OPs original quest; I don't size WQ'd bullets until at least 48 hours after casting. With AC'd bullets I don't size them until after 10 - 14 days have elapsed. That is, of course with ternary or quadra alloyed bullets so the hardening process can have time to complete. I don't WQ or HT binary cast bullets of lead/tin alloy for obvious reasons. I also haven't done much with WQ'd lead/antimony alloy in many years other than to say They also weren't sized for some time after casting.

[TD1886]

I've shot thousands of WQ'd cast bullet over the years. The BHN of recovered bullets [shot at 2900 fps out of a 31" barrel) remained close the BHN of those bullets before shooting them. Those bullets were sized down .004 - .006" by the bore and lube. I've not found any change in BHN with any AC'd or WQ'd bullets over the years. I generally don't size down more than .002 - .003 with any cast bullets in a single sizing regardless of AC'd or WQ'd.

To answer the OPs original quest; I don't size WQ'd bullets until at least 48 hours after casting. With AC'd bullets I don't size them until after 10 - 14 days have elapsed. That is, of course with ternary or quadra alloyed bullets so the hardening process can have time to complete. I don't WQ or HT binary cast bullets of lead/tin alloy for obvious reasons. I also haven't done much with WQ'd lead/antimony alloy in many years other than to say They also weren't sized for some time after casting.

Larry I'm so glad you posted about this because I was afraid I was one of the few that noticed exactly what you said. Pretty much what you said about alloy and sizing pretty much follow what I do.

So now members here are hearing it from two people.

[huntinlever]

Excellent, thanks guys. I was hoping Larry, you too would come on board. For me it's always a cost-benefit thing - don't like to get too far into processes unless it better helps my aim(s) (no pun intended), and that is always and only, hunting well. So I continue to try and learn to cool the overthinking given my rather pedestrian needs.

However, it seems like a no-brainer here. Nothing complicated about resting time. So I'll do just that. Curious, coincidentally, whether giving the bullets 2-3 days before sizing will aid in an issue loose gas checks.

Thanks. "Revised."


Cast
water quench
48 hours rest
push through size and gas check with RCBS lube at 0.460
wash, rinse
Oven Treat
Quench in ice water
Dry
lubrisize at 0.461
rest 2 weeks
load and shoot

[Larry Gibson]

Let me add something about the hardening of the bullet from WQing or ACing; many mistakenly believe this hardening process just hardens the exterior of the bullet [as in case hardening iron or steel] so as to better grip the rifling. This is not true. WQing or HTing cast bullets hardens the bullet all the way through the bullet. I have not found sizing has any measurable affect of the BHN of such bullets when they are allowed sufficient time for the hardening process to complete. I have not been able to find any indication that "work softening" of the of the bullet from sizing or even shooting lessons the desired effect of the hardening.

[243winxb]

I have never seen, meassured bullets growing in size, after sizing.

But a die marked .429" can produce sized bullet that are larger. The harder the alloy, the larger the finished bullet. As much as .002" difference between alloys.

Air cooled tin alloy ullets will get softer over years. Heat treated remain the same.

Doing your own testing is the only way to know. https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/make-cast-bullets-harder-oven-heat-treating.4774/full

First sizing is Lee die. https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/oven-heat-treating-cast-bullets-water-cooled-to-harden-alloy-must-contain-2-antimony-minimum.3749/

[huntinlever]

I've shot thousands of WQ'd cast bullet over the years. The BHN of recovered bullets [shot at 2900 fps out of a 31" barrel) remained close the BHN of those bullets before shooting them. Those bullets were sized down .004 - .006" by the bore and lube. I've not found any change in BHN with any AC'd or WQ'd bullets over the years. I generally don't size down more than .002 - .003 with any cast bullets in a single sizing regardless of AC'd or WQ'd.

To answer the OPs original quest; I don't size WQ'd bullets until at least 48 hours after casting. With AC'd bullets I don't size them until after 10 - 14 days have elapsed. That is, of course with ternary or quadra alloyed bullets so the hardening process can have time to complete. I don't WQ or HT binary cast bullets of lead/tin alloy for obvious reasons. I also haven't done much with WQ'd lead/antimony alloy in many years other than to say They also weren't sized for some time after casting.

Re-reading this, I just want to make sure I am understanding you properly, Larry. Presume water quenching one way or the other. However we get to the hardness, whether it's directly quenched from the casting mold or oven-treated, then quenched: (1) you don't worry about work softening, so see no harm in sizing even after oven heating and quenching - i.e., you wait for the hardening process to complete, but are not worried about the surface work softening? So it might be something like this:


cast
air cool
oven-treat
quench in ice water
rest 2 days for hardening maturation
size and seat gas checks
lubrisize
wait two weeks
load and shoot?

[414gates]

For the OP, it doesn't matter when you size. The difference in hardness between as-cast and weeks old bullets is not detrimental to sizing, so size whenever. Lead is not going to expand by itself over time.


Cast bullets can be heat treated to increase their hardness providing your alloy has 2% or more antimony present. To heat treat your bullets: Cast your bullets in the normal manner, saving several scrap bullets. Size using RCBS 2 Lube. WASH OFF. Place several scrap bullets on a pan in your oven at 450 degrees and increase the temperature until the bullets start to melt or slump. Be sure to use an accurate oven thermometer and a pan that will not be used again for food. Once the bullets start to melt or slump, back off the temperature about 10 degrees and slide in your first batch of good bullets. Leave these in the oven for 1 hour. Remove the bullets from the oven and plunge them into cool water. Allow them to cool thoroughly. When you are ready to lubricate, install a Lyman sizing die .001" larger than the one used to initially size them, OR Tumble lube with Alox. This will prevent the sides of the bullets from work-softening from contact with the sizing die. Next apply gas checks if required and lubricate. BULLETS WILL TAKE 2 WEEKS TO FULLY HARDEN. These are now ready for loading.

Lead alloys age harden to final hardness.

Lead alloys cannot be quenched to achieve final hardness. What applies to steel does not apply at all to lead alloys.

The type and percentage of alloy and time alone determines the final hardness.

Cooling the alloy from cast can lessen the overall age hardening time.

At the end a period of time, around two weeks, irrespective of wether the bullets were quenched in ice or annealed in fire, they will all achieve the same final hardness if cast from the same alloy.

You can make the process as complicated as you wish, you will not increase the final hardness beyond which the type and percentage of alloys permit.

[TD1886]

Let me add something about the hardening of the bullet from WQing or ACing; many mistakenly believe this hardening process just hardens the exterior of the bullet [as in case hardening iron or steel] so as to better grip the rifling. This is not true. WQing or HTing cast bullets hardens the bullet all the way through the bullet. I have not found sizing has any measurable affect of the BHN of such bullets when they are allowed sufficient time for the hardening process to complete. I have not been able to find any indication that "work softening" of the of the bullet from sizing or even shooting lessons the desired effect of the hardening.

I've never thought bullets water quenched didn't harden all the way through. Some people have tried ways to brinell test them by cutting the bullet in half length wise and testing the interior. Thing is how much did sectioning the bullet alter it's hardness? Another thing a harden bullet seems to be hard all the way through when it smacks into something like dirt, animal tissue, or wood. Look at Linotype bullets. They shatter like chalk when hitting something hard. Seems they are the same hardness all the way through.

[TD1886]

I have never seen, meassured bullets growing in size, after sizing.

But a die marked .429" can produce sized bullet that are larger. The harder the alloy, the larger the finished bullet. As much as .002" difference between alloys.

Air cooled tin alloy ullets will get softer over years. Heat treated remain the same.

Doing your own testing is the only way to know. https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/make-cast-bullets-harder-oven-heat-treating.4774/full

First sizing is Lee die. https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/oven-heat-treating-cast-bullets-water-cooled-to-harden-alloy-must-contain-2-antimony-minimum.3749/

I know a guy that cast and sized bullets for a 45 Colt. He done everything the proper way. He loaded and shot some of them. Then put them away kind of forgot about them. Dug them out one day to shoot the rest of them and none of the cartridges would fit in the chamber. Go figure. Only think I can think of is that he didn't wait long enough for them to age harden.

[243winxb]

https://www.totalmateria.com/page.aspx?ID=CheckArticle&site=ktn&NM=88

Some good info . Heat Treating of Lead and Lead Alloys.

Another- https://patents.google.com/patent/US5464487A/en

EXAMPLE

38 caliber swaged wrought bullets manufactured by Bull-X, Inc. were heat treated in an open air furnace at about 450° F. for the times set forth below and were then promptly quenched in water at ambient temperature. Following quenching, the Brinell hardnesses of at least 25 of the bullet samples were tested with a Rockwell machine in accordance with ASTM Standard E10-84 using a 100 kg load and an M scale ball of 6.35 mm diameter. The duration of the heating and the Brinell hardness readings were as follows:

______________________________________
Heating Time Brinell Hardness (min.) (range)
______________________________________

5 minutes19.6-21.3
10 25.5-28
20 24.3-25.5
30 28-29
______________________________________
After 8 days, 1 1/2 months and 2 months, hardness tests were again performed on these samples and these tests revealed that the hardness was essentially unchanged.

At least 25 of the samples which were heated for 5 and/or 10 minutes and then quenched as described above also were sectioned, ground, polished and hardness tested both at the surface and the core. These tests revealed that the hardness was essentially uniform throughout.

The samples which had been hardened as described were also analyzed for metal content and had the following metal content:

______________________________________
metal wt. %
______________________________________

Copper 0.038
Arsenic 0.16
Antimony
3.0
Tin 0.25
Zinc 0.0001
Cadmium 0.0001
Nickel <.0001
Bismuth 0.018
Silver 0.0038
Tellurium
0.0015
Sulfur 0.0005
Iron <.0001
Lead Balance
______________________________________
It can be seen from the above example that the hardened swaged wrought bullets of the present invention are capable of use in their unjacketed form with ammunition loads of substantially higher muzzle velocities exceeding 900 fps, and in loads having the power factor and bullet weights previously discussed without unacceptable leading. Thus, the cost of jacketing is avoided as well as cost of inclusion of tin or increased levels of antimony.

It will be understood that the preferred embodiment of the present invention which has been described is merely illustrative of the principles of the present invention. Numerous modifications may be made by those skilled in the art without departing from the true spirit and scope of the invention.

[TD1886]

https://www.totalmateria.com/page.aspx?ID=CheckArticle&site=ktn&NM=88

Some good info . Heat Treating of Lead and Lead Alloys.

Another- https://patents.google.com/patent/US5464487A/en

EXAMPLE

38 caliber swaged wrought bullets manufactured by Bull-X, Inc. were heat treated in an open air furnace at about 450° F. for the times set forth below and were then promptly quenched in water at ambient temperature. Following quenching, the Brinell hardnesses of at least 25 of the bullet samples were tested with a Rockwell machine in accordance with ASTM Standard E10-84 using a 100 kg load and an M scale ball of 6.35 mm diameter. The duration of the heating and the Brinell hardness readings were as follows:

______________________________________
Heating Time Brinell Hardness (min.) (range)
______________________________________

5 minutes19.6-21.3
10 25.5-28
20 24.3-25.5
30 28-29
______________________________________
After 8 days, 1 1/2 months and 2 months, hardness tests were again performed on these samples and these tests revealed that the hardness was essentially unchanged.

At least 25 of the samples which were heated for 5 and/or 10 minutes and then quenched as described above also were sectioned, ground, polished and hardness tested both at the surface and the core. These tests revealed that the hardness was essentially uniform throughout.

The samples which had been hardened as described were also analyzed for metal content and had the following metal content:

______________________________________
metal wt. %
______________________________________

Copper 0.038
Arsenic 0.16
Antimony
3.0
Tin 0.25
Zinc 0.0001
Cadmium 0.0001
Nickel <.0001
Bismuth 0.018
Silver 0.0038
Tellurium
0.0015
Sulfur 0.0005
Iron <.0001
Lead Balance
______________________________________
It can be seen from the above example that the hardened swaged wrought bullets of the present invention are capable of use in their unjacketed form with ammunition loads of substantially higher muzzle velocities exceeding 900 fps, and in loads having the power factor and bullet weights previously discussed without unacceptable leading. Thus, the cost of jacketing is avoided as well as cost of inclusion of tin or increased levels of antimony.

It will be understood that the preferred embodiment of the present invention which has been described is merely illustrative of the principles of the present invention. Numerous modifications may be made by those skilled in the art without departing from the true spirit and scope of the invention.

If you take a rod of pure lead, say 3/8 inch diameter 12 inches long and bend it back and forth in the middle that middle section will harden. It work hardens.

[huntinlever]

I know a guy that cast and sized bullets for a 45 Colt. He done everything the proper way. He loaded and shot some of them. Then put them away kind of forgot about them. Dug them out one day to shoot the rest of them and none of the cartridges would fit in the chamber. Go figure. Only think I can think of is that he didn't wait long enough for them to age harden.

TD, maybe it was you I was referring to, whose friend couldn't fit the bullets in his handgun, as he'd sized right away - and they expanded, some?

[TD1886]

TD, maybe it was you I was referring to, whose friend couldn't fit the bullets in his handgun, as he'd sized right away - and they expanded, some?

I believe it was Paul.

[huntinlever]

I believe it was Paul.

Great, thanks.

[poppy42]

Ya know I didn’t have a clue what the heck WQ’ing was! Gotta love made up acronyms!