Older Cap and Ball Italian Repro Maker

[snipin101]

Hello all. I purchased a brass framed 51 navy yesterday in a box set and can't seem to figure out who made this gun. I took pictures of the stamps and markings and hope that someone else knows more about it than I do. Thankshttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230712/c92b8494ff827a745c9162faf086a628.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230712/590d8cf0915adb561d74c803a6f8466b.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230712/e59d596293fed68bec810b81271dc343.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230712/1e6c1384f81cfa4e1159bb3dee1fa903.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230712/a03c5a9df9b34a326dbbf357c0768d0c.jpg

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[TD1886]

Looks like an older Pietta. Could also be a Armi San Palo

[Gtek]

Are there any markings under loading lever near rear on barrel bottom? I would also suspect it being San Palo.

[snipin101]

Nope, no markings at all under the loading lever.

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[pietro]

.

It may have come from a small Italian maker - look here for what I'm referring to:

http://www.capandballrevolvers.com/makers-and-importers

[snipin101]

Thank you so much for that link! According to the link mine has the same stamping on the cylinder and the frame as the armi San marco. The little stamp with the pn under it.

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[TD1886]

Thank you so much for that link! According to the link mine has the same stamping on the cylinder and the frame as the armi San marco. The little stamp with the pn under it.

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Yup like I said.

[pietro]

Thank you so much for that link!


You're welcome (glad I could help)...... :drinks:

[Battis]

If that's an XX7 on the frame, it was made in 1971.

[TD1886]

If that's an XX7 on the frame, it was made in 1971.

Where the Roman numeral for one??

[Battis]

https://blackpowderarms.com/date_chart.php

[armoredman]

Looks like my Navy Arms box.

[T-Bird]

mine too, mine is a Navy Arms 36 cal, made in the early '60's

[TD1886]

Looks like my Navy Arms box.

Isn't Navy Arms just a distributor? I don't believe they manufacture guns?

[indian joe]

Isn't Navy Arms just a distributor? I don't believe they manufacture guns?

I think you correct (kind of) they had stuff made to order by the Italians .

Do anybody think the Colt markings on this gun were overstamped by an owner? or came from the factory like it? -- a couple of places it looks like could be done later????

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello snipin101,

I thought Armi San Marco was the only manufacture to use the "COLT'S PATENT" on their firearms.
They were sued by Colt for doing so, even though they did manufacture frames for Colt.

AntiqueSledMan.

[snipin101]

Thanks for all the info. I'm sure it's an Armi San Marco. Either way it locks up good and has very little cylinder end play. Hoping I get the chance this weekend to burn some powder in it.

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[Gtek]

"Either way it locks up good and has very little cylinder end play" Brass frame, I know you know to stay on the light side of things to help it stay there for a while longer.

[snipin101]

Oh yeah, I will stay at 15 gr max.

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[Gtek]

I don't know where you are in the Black powder revolver game and everybody will have or has there own proven tactics and witches brews. Some time ago I became a real fan of Lucas Red and Tacky grease that is used on the arbor, rear of cylinder, bolt notches on cylinder and a smear over bolt hole. I am very happy with what I have seen over that period of time, worth a try?

[snipin101]

Never been told to try the red n tacky. I use a product on the arbor called super lube grease. Seems to do a great job and don't gunk up at all. Then over the ball for bullet lube I use my mixture of 1/2 toilet wax gasket, small container of crisco and about three to four tablespoons of stp oil treatment. Works great unless it's really cold, then it's to hard. Then I go to straight crisco.

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[Jackrabbit1957]

First thing is to correct the arbor and barrel to cylinder gap. Gap should run around .002 to .004 max. If it's an ASM the arbor is short. With that brass frame the short arbor is real problem as far as how long the pistol will hold up. By correcting the arbor length and getting the cylinder gap to the spec mentioned it cuts down the slide hammer effect the cylinder has on pounding the frame. Also sticking to light loads is a great idea.

[Gtek]

Yep, first step on the Italian kit guns. Check your B/C gap and wedge position, then remove wedge and barrel. Half cock and slide off cylinder and put barrel back on arbor with bore at 10-11 and lower lug at 4-5. Slowly rotate over to frame and view. This is where the fun starts!

[45 Dragoon]

That doesn't work without dressing the arbor since they only go together with correct orientation. Why would you make a too short arbor too skinny as well . . . just to test for what you already know?

Mike

[Soundguy]

Isn't Navy Arms just a distributor? I don't believe they manufacture guns?

navy arms imported for armi san marco.. I have a put together gun with a mix of parts but the frame is ASM/navy

[Jackrabbit1957]

I just finished up the worst fitted Uberti that's come across my bench, Uberti has this bizarre idea that making the arbor fit very tight into the barrel lug fixes the short arbor problem. It doesn't. I had to carefully dress the arbor down to get a slip fit, so you don't need a mallet to separate the 2 parts, then address the short problem. Once it was fitted the wedge no longer fit... too loose. That was fixed by adding a combination wedge bearing and arbor correction fastener. Once that was done the barrel to cylinder gap was corrected, the pistol tuned and tweaked and it's ready to go back to the owner. By the way, this one was new in the box, never fired. It is imported by Cimaron.

[Gtek]

The pile of them here seem to have went together that way just fine for arbor length check, maybe mine are different.

[indian joe]

That doesn't work without dressing the arbor since they only go together with correct orientation. Why would you make a too short arbor too skinny as well . . . just to test for what you already know?

Mike

Thanks Mike --we have four here (various makes - old guns) none of em will do the pivot thing - I had assumed maybe there was some swelling / distorsion around the arbor slot. The ASM is my pick of the four.

[45 Dragoon]

The pile of them here seem to have went together that way just fine for arbor length check, maybe mine are different.
Nope, don't see how they would know to make yours correct and ALL the rest wrong. I'm pretty sure yours don't have a "witness mark" at the bottom of the arbor hole indicating contact with the arbor.
The broaching procedure for the wedge slot causes the distortion that makes correct orientation necessary for assembly . . . which without dressing the arbor makes the 90° "test" basically impossible.

Mike

[Gtek]

Broach cut causing distortion I can see and have done, probably why sometimes you see dressing/file marks around those rectangular cuts. A round hole drilled in a barrel assembly and an arbor turned on a lathe makes for an elliptical wedge fit?. And I don't think 10-11 O'clock is 9 O'clock/90 degrees. My yard, your yard, have a nice day!

[45 Dragoon]

A round hole drilled in a barrel assembly and an arbor turned on a lathe makes for an elliptical wedge fit?.

If they're broached after the fact . . . absolutely.

Mike

[Jackrabbit1957]

Broached or not most of the ones I've fixed would only turn a few degrees in one direction or another. And it's not an accurate test to begin with. Seen more than one that lined up using that method but when the wedge was seated they still bound up the cylinder. Take it for what it's worth.

[indian joe]

Broach cut causing distortion I can see and have done, probably why sometimes you see dressing/file marks around those rectangular cuts. A round hole drilled in a barrel assembly and an arbor turned on a lathe makes for an elliptical wedge fit?. And I don't think 10-11 O'clock is 9 O'clock/90 degrees. My yard, your yard, have a nice day!

Four guns with quite a few miles on them (ASM, Navy Arms, CVA, Uberti) all been sorted for arbor fit - none of them will rotate sufficiently to do the test ..................................(If you tell me the Navy arms and the CVA came from the same factory - I believe you - the rifling in those two is identical specs)

[Jackrabbit1957]

Best way to test for the short arbor is to tap the wedge in till it stops, if it locks up the cylinder the arbor is short.

[Gtek]

Feel poorly for hijacking this gentleman's thread with our banter! It would be interesting to hear in a new thread your approaches to arbor fitting, correction of the barrel cylinder gap and the fitting of the wedge with the order and tactics of completing such.

[snipin101]

It's fine lol, I enjoy reading about hem all I can. I have a new pietta that I need to shim the arbor because it's to short.

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[StrawHat]

With a properly fitted arbor, the wedge needs only light pressure to seat properly. Once seated properly, the bc gap is set and no amount of pounding on the wedge will change it. Colt had it figured out it is just expensive to duplicate, properly.

Kevin