Will the USA be judged for its rebellion?

[dverna]

As we celebrate Independence from Britain, are we mocking God's word and His authority?

Romans 13:
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

The main reasons for the Revolutionary War were discontent regarding Britain imposing new taxes (which they had the authority to do), and their desire for more control of the colonies (which they also had the authority to do).

It does not appear that Britain was evil and that seems about the only reason the Bible speaks to for not obeying the government.

[Winger Ed.]

It does not appear that Britain was evil

As with other governments and revolts--- how good or evil the govt. is will be a matter of each person's perspective.

During the American revolution, some people were loyal to the Crown, some didn't really care one way or another,
and some felt quite oppressed by various actions of the British govt. not just the taxation.

[dannyd]

The United State's may be judged more for this KJB Genius 13.13. Just Saying

Ever noticed that verse's numbers match our first flag.

[MUSTANG]

As we celebrate Independence from Britain, are we mocking God's word and His authority?

........

It does not appear that Britain was evil and that seems about the only reason the Bible speaks to for not obeying the government.


It seems that there is a different observation of Historical Facts at play. The British WERE PERCEIVED by many of the Colonialsts as evil. The British citizenry of England were allowed to go about their daily activities - provided they conformed to the "Dictates of the Crown" - punishment from diverting from the "Dictates of the Crown" included incarceration for debts, called debtors prison (whether incurred by oneself voluntarily or from unbearable taxation by the crown), incarceration for real or perceived offenses to the Crown with no obligation for a trial unless the Crown decided to do so (unless one was a member of the Select and Privileged Classes), and of course the "Horrendous Torture of Prisoners" at the discretion of the Crown or the Crowns delegates.

In the Colonies; those who offended the Governor, could receive the same type of treatment - or be thrown in irons and shipped to England to "Answer to the Crown".

As I said; the interpretation of Evil may be different for different people. The Creator will determine if the decision of a person or peoples to resist a governance (Caesar at biblical times such as documented in ROMANS) because it was evil.

[JimB..]

No, and I’m not sure what a country being judged by God would even look like. We tend to aggregate folks onto groups because we haven't the capacity to consider each person individually, but God has no such limitation. I don’t believe that the USA was blessed by God, rather a large number of individual people in the USA were/are blessed and we incorrectly attribute the aggregate effect to a blessing of the country.

About Paul’s comments, I think either the bible is invariably correct, and I don’t understand him, or it is not and his statements are demonstrably false. Consider “Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment” in the context of war between two governments. In that context, is not one authority appointed by God resisting another authority appointed by God? Who will be judged for this, which state, leadership, soldiers, citizens? Perhaps at the time of his writing all governmental authority was appointed by God, but is that still true today? At that time the American Indians were tribes, your question focuses on our fight with England, but our forefathers “resisted” American Indian authority much more fiercely than it did the English Monarchy, and it seems fair for the Indians to have considered Europeans to be evil…so are “we” (whoever that might be) to be judged for that? Maybe that’s a question for late November.

Off the cuff I think he was saying “we’re not overthrowing the government, be good citizens and good christians” but I haven’t studied it at all.

[dverna]

The Stamp Tax Act of 1765 was repealed in 1766

The Townshend Tax Act of 1767 was repealed in 1770...expect for the Tea Tax.

And we all know English tea is an essential commodity that Americans had to have to survive. Some Americans had to resort to Dutch tea for comfort.

BTW, the real losers wrt to the Tea Tax were...follow the money...American merchants:

"By allowing the East India Company to sell tea directly in the American colonies, the Tea Act cut out colonial merchants, and the prominent and influential colonial merchants reacted with anger."

In fact, the Tax Act lowered the price of tea to the colonies:

"The act granted the company the right to ship its tea directly to the colonies without first landing it in England, and to commission agents who would have the sole right to sell tea in the colonies. The act retained the duty on imported tea at its existing rate, but, since the company was no longer required to pay an additional tax in England, the Tea Act effectively lowered the price of the East India Company’s tea in the colonies."

For a full read of the Tea Act:

https://www.history.com/topics/american-revolution/tea-act

[huntinlever]

In my opinion, at the start until well into the process, we considered ourselves Englishmen, and we wanted the rights of any English subject. Increasingly we felt we were being subjugated in a way that made us lesser subjects - two different systems, with ourselves getting the short end of the stick relative to Englishmen in England. That drove the ire through much of our growing discontent. Not taxation per se, but "taxation without representation." So when William turned as obdurate as granite, he horribly miscalculated and the rest is as they say history.

This lined up with the growing embrace of "natural law" - Locke, with some Rousseau tossed in - and the notion of an immutable, universal, divinely-bestowed set of rights governing all mankind in civil society, as distinct from the "state of nature" theorized by Hobbes, Locke, Rousseau and many others. To me of all the Founders, Thomas Jefferson was probably the most fervent believer in this ethos: his adaptation of Locke, "All mean are created equal....inalienable rights....life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

I'll tell you one thing - thank god we were colonized by the British. Colonization under Spain or Portugal, well, I feel blessed.

[dverna]

I reminded of Daniel. He obeyed King Nebuchadnezzar and faithfully served the King in all things expect his faith. Daniel kept his faith in God and would not bow down to the idols of Babylon.

At that point, Romans had not been written, yet Daniel submitted to the reign of the King that had defeated Israel.

We glamourize our Revolution and justify it. We want to believe it was a "just" revolution in God's eyes and that He interceded on our behalf. But there is little or no foundation in the bible to support that...at least that I can find.

If, as stated in Romans, God appoints our leaders, is God using Biden and his crew of misfits and fools to drag us down and punish America? Or is God pushing us to the point we must overthrow our government?

In my opinion, our current government is worse than the British we battled in the Revolutionary War. We are taxed with impunity on everything we do or own. We celebrate Pride month and applaud perversion. We sanction the killing of babies because if makes life easier. The government is indoctrinating our kids and failing to educate them. Our "representatives" are part of the gang rape of America; with most of them bought and paid for.

In 2010, 26% of Americans did not know who we fought in the Revolutionay War:
. https://americaswatchtower.com/2010/07/15/26-of-americans-dont-know-who-america-fought-in-the-revolutionary-war/#:~:text=The%20fact%20that%20one%20quarter%20of%20 those%20polled,faster%20rate%20than%20I%20would%20 have%20thought%20possible.

I bet that percentage has gone up.

Most people have no idea why we fought for Independence.

God knows the truth.

My Pastor sent me this. "I believe the moral decline of our country is in fact the judgement of God on our country because as a whole our country has rejected Him." It is an interesting statement as it suggests moral decline is being used to punish us. Something I had not considered.

[M-Tecs]

Why would the USA be judged for its rebellion today? Individuals involved in the Revolutionary War faced their judgement at the time of their death.

The sins of others are NOT my sins past or present. Some for governments. Governments are run by individuals. These individuals are solely responsible for their action.

Same for me being responsible for the actions of the current administration. I didn't vote for this, and I stand up to it whenever possible.

[dannyd]

Why would the USA be judged for its rebellion today? Individuals involved in the Revolutionary War faced their judgement at the time of their death.

The sins of others are NOT my sins past or present. Some for governments. Governments are run by individuals. These individuals are solely responsible for their action.

Same for me being responsible for the actions of the current administration. I didn't vote for this, and I stand up to it whenever possible.

That's is a easy answer out of the King James Bible because God is going to Judge the Nation's.

All the Nation's

[.429&H110]

The British Crown set itself up as the Pope of the Anglican church.
King Chuck owns all Britain and all else he can occupy.
That crown conquered the world.

God asked Samuel why on earth Israel wanted a king
then God warned about earthly kings

Americans have been fat and happy for so long
we have been taught what to think, taught not to read
rejected God's first language, math.
Cancelled evangelism.
So some want a powerful ruler to tell them what to do
while they watch a flickering screen.
The sheep forgot they are sheep.

America seems to be judging itself.
God is Love, yet God is Wrath: a God to be feared.
He Blesses who He will bless and His Wrath is awesome.
America asked for His Blessing, received abundantly, then forgot Him.
The Book says we need repentance.
God judges individuals, one at a time.
He has a special Love for the children of Israel, and there Israel stands.
Repent
Renew
Redeem

[dverna]

Why would the USA be judged for its rebellion today? Individuals involved in the Revolutionary War faced their judgement at the time of their death.

The sins of others are NOT my sins past or present. Some for governments. Governments are run by individuals. These individuals are solely responsible for their action.

Same for me being responsible for the actions of the current administration. I didn't vote for this, and I stand up to it whenever possible.

God has shown He inflicts his judgement on succeeding generations. A cursory reading of Genesis is all the proof needed to understand that sins affects future generations. In Genesis, it is forever….for one mistake.

In fact, it is Genesis that has made me question if God is just and fair…as I define just and fair. But that is another rabbit hole.

[Hannibal]

Does this question not imply that the British commonwealth was seen favorably in God's eyes?

Who's to say that the breakaway by the Colonies was not Britain's punishment for their actions?

The actions of both countries are questionable at best given what I've read in scripture.

And if you believe in God, who are you to question his actions and motivations?

[M-Tecs]

God has shown He inflicts his judgement on succeeding generations. A cursory reading of Genesis is all the proof needed to understand that sins affects future generations. In Genesis, it is forever….for one mistake.

In fact, it is Genesis that has made me question if God is just and fair…as I define just and fair. But that is another rabbit hole.

Most of the major organized religions have done some very questionable things. Based on that the followers of most organized religions followers are going to be judge harshly for actions of previous generations and their organizations?

I grow up under one of the very last fire and brimstones priests in the Catholic church. He was followed by a child molester that the church had covered for at least twice before. The child molester was followed by political activist (socialist/communist).

Other than funerals I have not set foot in a church since the mid 80's.

I do live my life and treat others the best I can.

What I find most interest is that apparently a large number of priests have little or no concern about their own actions on judgement day let alone the actions of previous generations????

[30calflash]

Some good replies here, much to think about.

I've pondered that maybe the Rev war and the colonies involved were part of God's way to spread the Gospel, as it did in Rome, Asia and other places in the world, as written, at that time.

The Lord works in mysterious ways.

[dverna]

Does this question not imply that the British commonwealth was seen favorably in God's eyes?

Who's to say that the breakaway by the Colonies was not Britain's punishment for their actions?

The actions of both countries are questionable at best given what I've read in scripture.

And if you believe in God, who are you to question his actions and motivations?

I certainly believe in God. None of us can pretend to understand God or His plan. That does not mean we should not think about things and how the Bible, His word, can help us gain understanding and wisdom.

Many American Christians seem to believe we are somehow “special”. I do not believe that is the case. There is only one nation that is God’s chosen people…it is not us.

America has been here for less than 250 years. It seems like a long time, but God’s timeline is eternity.

The greatest country in the world today is being torn apart. That interests me. If it is God’s will, so be it.

[HWooldridge]

Individuals are judged - not governments. None of you will have to answer for my actions - nor I for yours. The rest won’t be known until we each meet our Maker and for any human to truly understand God is not possible, i.e., the pot cannot conceive the potter. It is for this reason that Jesus Christ came into the world, so that each of us can choose whether to follow Him. As for the rest of it, all we can do is pray continuously, and take action when our hearts tell us to do so.

[Hannibal]

I certainly believe in God. None of us can pretend to understand God or His plan. That does not mean we should not think about things and how the Bible, His word, can help us gain understanding and wisdom.

Many American Christians seem to believe we are somehow “special”. I do not believe that is the case. There is only one nation that is God’s chosen people…it is not us.

America has been here for less than 250 years. It seems like a long time, but God’s timeline is eternity.

The greatest country in the world today is being torn apart. That interests me. If it is God’s will, so be it.

Have you considered that the title of 'Greatest County in the World today' is nothing more than your personal opinion?

Who declared that to be the case? God?

[dannyd]

Individuals are judged - not governments. None of you will have to answer for my actions - nor I for yours. The rest won’t be known until we each meet our Maker and for any human to truly understand God is not possible, i.e., the pot cannot conceive the potter. It is for this reason that Jesus Christ came into the world, so that each of us can choose whether to follow Him. As for the rest of it, all we can do is pray continuously, and take action when our hearts tell us to do so.

If God is not going to Judge Nations; I guess I will have to put a line though Matt. 25:32 in the old KJB ;)

[HWooldridge]

If God is not going to Judge Nations; I guess I will have to put a line though Matt. 25:32 in the old KJB ;)

Do you want to be judged based on the nation or your own actions? I believe it’s pretty clear that each person has to answer for how he/she lived their life.

[Saxon]

back then the King was god as far as peasants were concerned,
so by having the revolution (to get away for the state ordered church as well)
we made God our king!!

[dverna]

Have you considered that the title of 'Greatest County in the World today' is nothing more than your personal opinion?

Who declared that to be the case? God?

Hannibal,
Good point. I think we have the greatest country in the world based on my experiences. I am blessed to be able to live anywhere that will take me and have no desire to leave the USA. So yes, it is my personal opinion this is the greatest country in the world.

If you feel differently, that is OK.

I left my country when I was in my 40's and became a US citizen in my 50's. Never regretted my decision. If you think there is a better place for you...go for it. Life is short.

[GhostHawk]

Cahn passionately detailed the prophetic parallels between ancient Israel and the modern-day decline of morality in America.
Johnathan Cahn
“As the people of ancient Israel, in the midst of their blessings, committed a fatal error, so have we,” he continued. “We too, as a nation, have turned from God. We too, as a nation, have removed Him from our lives. Step by step we too have ruled Him out of our culture, out of our government, out of our economy. We too have ruled Him out of the instruction and lives of our children. We too have made God a stranger. And as we have driven God from our national life, we have brought in other gods and idols to replace Him—gods of sensuality, violence, wealth, carnality, sexual promiscuity. And as did Israel, so too we have abandoned the ways of God and the laws of God for the ways of immorality.”

ive-time, best-selling author and renowned Christian leader Jonathan Cahn says America is paralleling ancient Israel before it was destroyed by God. Can we turn it around before it is too late? According to Cahn’s new upcoming movie called “The Harbingers of Things to Come,” we can turn it around, but it’s going to take repentance, prayer, faith and God to do it. Cahn explains, “The harbinger is revealing the Biblical template of national judgment that begins with a strike on the land. It happened in ancient Israel. It’s a wake-up call, calling the nation back. The nation is then given a span of time, years, to come back to God. It’s mercy. The same harbingers or warning signs that happened in the last days of Israel have now happened or have all appeared in America. So, the warning is now for us. Ancient Israel did not turn back. It actually got worse, and that is exactly what happened. In America, the strike came on 9/11, and all the harbingers, nine harbingers, all appeared starting with 9/11. They were warning America of judgment. We have followed the course of ancient Israel. . . . One of the things that ancient Israel did was lifted up its children on the alters of Baal and Moloch, and they killed their children. Israel killed thousands, and we killed millions. Therefore, this puts us in danger of judgment.”

So, how long do we have before God’s judgment starts? Cahn says, “19 years before judgment. When did it happen for America? It was 9.11.2001. Could it be the 19th year would be when great shakings would start coming on the land? What’s the year? It pinpoints the year 2020. 2020 is the year that the shakings come on. The plague comes on. Cities are burning. We are still dealing with Covid. We have been shaken and locked up, and all these things to this day. . . . In Jeramiah, he said a plague would come on the land in Israel. We have a plague, and on the 19th year, the plague came. What’s the name of this plague? They call it Covid and then the number 19. When Jeramiah is talking about the plague and shaking, he is linking it to the sin of killing the nation’s children in ancient Israel. When was the first case of Covid in America? It was called patient zero, and it made headlines across America. It made headlines, and there was a date next to the headline. The date was January 22 (2020). January 22 (1973) is the date the Supreme Court legalized the killing of children.”

Cahn says, “We’ve got to pray that this thing gets undone. God says if you want to kill your children, there is going to be a price to pay.”

America is doing what Israel did in their last days. We are embracing immorality. We are punishing the people of God. We are still killing our children, and we are doing everything they did, and then judgment came. We can’t say we were not warned. The only answer we have is from God.”

So, is the recent Supreme Court decision to limit abortion something that can help save America from Gods judgement? Cahn says, “It’s definitely a step in the right direction, but who knows? This is a gigantic step, but at the same time, it’s not going to end abortion. Abortion is still going to happen in the major places where it happens like New York, which is the abortion capitol of the country. It’s still going to happen in all these places where it is happening, but it’s going to make it harder to kill babies. That means it’s going to save lives. . . . We are seeing pushback on abortion in many places. . . . There is a pushback, but there must be revival if we are going to be saved. The other forces are still going full blast. They are still training the children. So, we have to pray as never before, we have to stand as never before and proclaim the Truth (of Jesus Christ) as never before.

Cahn contends the states that continue abortion will do far worse than states that end abortion.


https://harbingersofthingstocome.com/

[ioon44]

The Return of the God's by Jonathan Cahn is well worth reading or get the DVD, this really puts the condition of America in context of our history for the last 100 years.
As Israel turned away from the one true God and turned to the many gods, so has America.
If there is time for the people of America to repent and turn back to the God of the Bible, that time is growing short.




https://www.amazon.com/Return-Gods-Jonathan-Cahn/dp/1636411428

[Good Cheer]

As we celebrate Independence from Britain, are we mocking God's word and His authority?

Romans 13:
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

The main reasons for the Revolutionary War were discontent regarding Britain imposing new taxes (which they had the authority to do), and their desire for more control of the colonies (which they also had the authority to do).

It does not appear that Britain was evil and that seems about the only reason the Bible speaks to for not obeying the government.


Who thought it a good idea to erect in DC a giant phallus sticking up through a vesica piscis, would they mock God?

[.429&H110]

Supreme Court ruled on abortion
and Lake Mead started filling up.
Co-incidence?
There are no co-incidences.

[Good Cheer]

Who thought it a good idea to erect in DC a giant phallus sticking up through a vesica piscis, would they mock God?

[Hannibal]

Hannibal,
Good point. I think we have the greatest country in the world based on my experiences. I am blessed to be able to live anywhere that will take me and have no desire to leave the USA. So yes, it is my personal opinion this is the greatest country in the world.

If you feel differently, that is OK.

I left my country when I was in my 40's and became a US citizen in my 50's. Never regretted my decision. If you think there is a better place for you...go for it. Life is short.

My point was it would seem impossible for any of us to determine if there is any country or group of people who are pleasing God in their behaviors and thinking. Given what is going on here in the US I seriously doubt we would have his blessing now, if we ever did.

[William Yanda]

When I saw your question I thought of Abraham's dilemma when God revealed his plan for Sodom and Gomorrah while Lot was living there. If judgement for America is delayed, it will be only because of God's mercy.

[Electrod47]

"MENE, MENE, TEKEL, The handwriting is already on the wall.........and....we know what happens next.

[dverna]

"MENE, MENE, TEKEL, The handwriting is already on the wall.........and....we know what happens next.

A most appropriate song by the great Jonhy Cash.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pAvKBwCTTU

[Good Cheer]

And another...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEyujOSEexM

[ioon44]

Yep, its going by the Book.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

The KING JAMES version of the ancient writings is a lyrical and poetic interpretation of the ancient tomes. Of course the KING JAMES version would provide the authority to the monarch of the time, supporting the 'born to be ruler' premise.

[lx2008]

not just the USA but all nations will see the wrath of our Lord.
the USA has been turning from God for a very long time. its has just been these past
60+ yrs has it been so evil. other nations have shared this evil even longer.

my Savior`s return is very soon.

[Good Cheer]

The KING JAMES version of the ancient writings is a lyrical and poetic interpretation of the ancient tomes. Of course the KING JAMES version would provide the authority to the monarch of the time, supporting the 'born to be ruler' premise.

The various study aids, the myriad of available interlinears and concordances, keyed to the King James bible make it a wonderful resource for students of scripture. My favorite edition of the 1611 King James is the 1922 edition Companion Bible with notes and appendixes by E. W. Bullinger.

[Good Cheer]

not just the USA but all nations will see the wrath of our Lord.
the USA has been turning from God for a very long time. its has just been these past
60+ yrs has it been so evil. other nations have shared this evil even longer.

my Savior`s return is very soon.

Good morning sir. I couldn't agree with you more.

[pmer]

The subjectification of persons was one of things the Declaration of Independence took a stab at. I was listening to Glenn Beck over the 4th and first versions of the D.E. was aimed at ending slavery in the new world. The Emancipation Declaration wasn't the first attempt. In 1776 it was decided all 13 states had to be unanimous in the list of declarations and 2 states voted against the ending of "stealing people". American Indians were doing it to each other along with African tribes. As more and more people became literate and the bible got translated into their own languages it got harder and harder to see a person as property.

IMO the D.E. was an attempt to step away from the evils of monarchy and their attempts/needs to maintain their power in their own small "g" god ways. Biblically speaking I think it's wrong minded to see our separation as non biblical. But I think we're living in Romans 1 & 2 but to me it's two seperate things.

[Alabama358]

Supreme Court ruled on abortion
and Lake Mead started filling up.
Co-incidence?
There are no co-incidences.

California gets roughly 60% of Lake Mead's water...
not sure that they are being blessed because for the courts decision, seeing that they crave abortion up to the day of birth and have committed to be a Sanctuary State for the abortion industry.

[.429&H110]

Book says:
...rains on the just and the unjust...

Arizona is going to run out of water, sooner or later.

[Good Cheer]

Just thinking out loud... I'm certain there's lots of people who have concluded that America is currently under judgement.

[justindad]

Should the Israelites have stayed in Egypt?

[ioon44]

Should the Israelites have stayed in Egypt?


No, they are in the land that God promised to them by covenant.

[Good Cheer]

The return to the land is a currently ongoing fulfillment of the prophetic word.
And people look right at it and just bloop, it goes right over their heads![smilie=l:

[Good Cheer]

By the by, this is just a presentation I bumped into. Posting a link here as illustration of the muddle headed thinking common in the world today of people calling Israelites "Jews" and calling Judea "Israel" and identifying "Jews" as a race. It leads to thorough misunderstandings of what scripture says.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y8jyQKskdY

But that said, once you learn to smile at the goofy swapping out of names the presentation does have some finer points.

[Good Cheer]

Just something we were discussing today while out shopping and dining out...
Something sure is going to scare the bageebers out of the world to make everyone give their allegiance to the peace bringer (second beast) and I can't think of many things that would be more serving than to have the leading head of the world political system (first beast) grievously wounded.

[Alabama358]

Just something we were discussing today while out shopping and dining out...
Something sure is going to scare the bageebers out of the world to make everyone give their allegiance to the peace bringer (second beast) and I can't think of many things that would be more serving than to have the leading head of the world political system (first beast) grievously wounded.


Something that I have been considering lately is, What roll will AI play in the end times.

Imagine
- control over the entire banking system and personal bank accounts (and soon to be digital currency)
- control over the power grid, water systems etc.
- control over all "smart" devices, computer systems, facial recognition security cameras that are just about everywhere.
- ability to tell truth or deception by deflections in voice, pupil dilation and breathing etc.
- instant access to any and all internet post, text messages, recordings, purchases past and present.
- Ability to take on and animated image or with just a few words and an image of a person can create an almost indistinguishable "Deep Fake" video

Just to name a few and is advancing exponentially daily.

[Good Cheer]

I'd guess that it's something a lot of Christians are mulling over. The first beast is the political system. You make an image of it and what have you accomplished? Put an AI cybernetic system in charge of managing and enforcing compliance and you have a devil of a time.

[justindad]

Should Daniel have obeyed the decree of King Darius - forsake his prayers to GOD and pray to Darius instead?

316050

[Alabama358]

Should Daniel have obeyed the decree of King Darius - forsake his prayers to GOD and pray to Darius instead?

316050

I think that your question is rhetorical in nature and the obvious answer is of course not.

Daniel held fast in his Faith regardless of repercussions or inconvenience. Similar examples would be Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego or Paul and Silas.

Standing on your faith vs capitulating to the world is always a winning strategy.
To many folks... and truth be told "churches" are making major compromises in fear of upsetting worldly views and to keep the pews filled and the collection plates flowing.

Psalms 119:19
19 I am a stranger in the earth: hide not thy commandments from me.

John 15:19
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

1 John 2:15
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

[Good Cheer]

Concerning Daniel and for lack of a better place to post a question, has anyone thought that perhaps when three horns are plucked up (Daniel 7) that it could be the same event as the wounding of one of the heads (of the seven headed political system) as was shown to John in the Revelation?

[Good Cheer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Div1qZCWUWU

Just a compilation of Christians telling about what they've seen.

[.429&H110]

Schaeffer and Koop "Whatever Happened To The Human Race?" 1979

Remember C. Everett Koop MD? He wrote:

"Faithfulness to the Lordship of Christ means using the
constitutional processes while we still have them. We live in a
shrinking island of free constitutional practice. Only a small percentage
of countries in the world still possess this. The Lordship of Christ
means using these processes to speak and act on the basis of the
principles set forth in the Bible.
With Christ as Savior and Lord, we must do all we can to
lead others to Christ. And simultaneously we must use every
constitutional practice to offset the rise of authoritarian governments
and the loss of humanness in our society. But there is no use
in talking of offsetting the loss of humanness in society if we do
not act humanely to all people about us in the contacts of our individual lives."

America once had a Christian pediatrician Surgeon General...

[Good Cheer]

So very well said.

[dverna]

The "problem" is the Bible does not speak of freedom in the context we see it. In fact, slaves were told to obey their masters and people were told to obey the laws of their leaders as the leaders were put in place by God (as long as those laws did not usurp the teachings of the Bible). So, if the King wanted to tax let's say tea, that was his right and the tax must be paid.

If I am incorrect, point to specific scripture that points to freedom as a God given right.

God sent the Israelites into slavery in Egypt to punish them. If they had a right to freedom, it was something He decided to take from them. Would God not take away our freedom to punish us if that is His will?

[.429&H110]

I would never say you are wrong.
The democrats would like to see us as slaves, peons.
The Bible says a lot about slavery.
Various translations translate "freedom" differently.
The worst slavery is being a slave to sin,
locked in a loop of depression and addiction.
So the democrats open the border and legalize drugs.

America's founding freedom
was freedom to serve God any way we want
was freedom from taxation (until 1792)
was freedom to print anything we wanted
was freedom to say the government was wrong
and we took these freedoms at gunpoint.

"God given rights" sound good but
without the rule of law, we have no civil rights.

Psalms 119:45
44So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever.

45And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.

46I will speak of thy testimonies also before kings, and will not be ashamed.

Jesus came to free us!
and He narrowed down the law to two.

[Good Cheer]

Forget the lies about how free you are and it's really not much of a problem.

About judgement, yeah, Ruth Graham had the straight of it.
https://libquotes.com/ruth-graham/quote/lbd7v9v

[.429&H110]

We pray for the missionaries we sent to San Francisco
We haven't heard from them lately.

[Good Cheer]

About the USA being judged, the Lone Ranger bought a chain saw and put on a hockey mask.
Our "allies" would do little beyond a sigh of relief if we went away.
So yeah, perhaps our judgement is at hand.

[Daekar]

I don't see any reason to believe that the New Testament God would punish individuals on the basis of the behavior of their countrymen, especially those that were long dead before the individual was born. You could, if you wanted, argue that we are complicit in the present moral degeneracy of our neighbors because we haven't done everything in our power to stop it, but I think the Lord understands that everyone has limitations on what they are able to affect. There is an opportunity cost to all-consuming activism which often takes away from other things which we are commanded to look after, like hard work in an honest profession, generosity to the poor, or being good husbands and fathers to our wives and children.

If we're talking Old Testament God, He had very different expectations and standards. If we were still dealing with a world where Christ hadn't changed the game for us, we'd be screwed.

[dverna]

I don't see any reason to believe that the New Testament God would punish individuals on the basis of the behavior of their countrymen, especially those that were long dead before the individual was born. You could, if you wanted, argue that we are complicit in the present moral degeneracy of our neighbors because we haven't done everything in our power to stop it, but I think the Lord understands that everyone has limitations on what they are able to affect. There is an opportunity cost to all-consuming activism which often takes away from other things which we are commanded to look after, like hard work in an honest profession, generosity to the poor, or being good husbands and fathers to our wives and children.

If we're talking Old Testament God, He had very different expectations and standards. If we were still dealing with a world where Christ hadn't changed the game for us, we'd be screwed.

A cursory look at history might make your rethink what the NT God will or will not do for His children. Many Christians have suffered in many countries.

We want to believe God will protect us but that is not always the case. I smile when my preacher goes down that path. This preacher has a "body guard" during every service and our church has a security team. Evil abounds in this world and only a fool believes God will protect them.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Yes, I believe the USA will be Judged.

I also believe that OT God is NT God, in context with this topic.
Luke 10:12 seals that deal, IMHO.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2010%3A10-12&version=KJV

[popper]

Old Testament God, He had very different expectations and standards
Uh, NOPE.

[Alabama358]

Uh, NOPE.

What he said

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

[ioon44]

Rev 1:8
New King James Version
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

[Daekar]

A cursory look at history might make your rethink what the NT God will or will not do for His children. Many Christians have suffered in many countries.

We want to believe God will protect us but that is not always the case. I smile when my preacher goes down that path. This preacher has a "body guard" during every service and our church has a security team. Evil abounds in this world and only a fool believes God will protect them.

So... I think there is a difference between what I said and what your preacher says. I asserted that NT God will not mete out punishment to individuals within a nation based on the actions of their compatriots. That's not the same thing as claiming that God will specially protect those same people from suffering, unless one interprets everything that happens at every scale as a deliberate action of God, meaning that an absence of punishment must necessarily correspond to an absence of suffering. That's a Calvinist style Interpretation which essentially does away with free will, and the baggage which comes with that is unsupportable to me.

[BrianL]

An elected government should be the subject of the electorate. When elected 'Officials' decide what their constituents want, rather than asking them, they no longer are representatives and have no value whatsoever to the folks that voted them into office. Impeach the lot of them, start standing up!! If you want to believe that your vote counted and you lost, so be it, but prove that it counted

[BrianL]

The USA will be judged for its LACK of rebellion, when loud screamers that represent 7% of the masses hold sway, we all have no one to blame. Good and fine people who just want to get along...............yeah, that will work.

[Good Cheer]

No good people or innocent babes in old Nineveh or latter day Babylon?

[ioon44]

Mark 10:18
New American Standard Bible
But Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

If we think we are good, then we deceive ourselves.

[Good Cheer]

Will there be none in latter day Babylon, their treatment a reflection of Genesis 18?
That's a matter deserving of thought considering the admonition to come out of her.

[dverna]

So... I think there is a difference between what I said and what your preacher says. I asserted that NT God will not mete out punishment to individuals within a nation based on the actions of their compatriots. That's not the same thing as claiming that God will specially protect those same people from suffering, unless one interprets everything that happens at every scale as a deliberate action of God, meaning that an absence of punishment must necessarily correspond to an absence of suffering. That's a Calvinist style Interpretation which essentially does away with free will, and the baggage which comes with that is unsupportable to me.

He has done so in the past.

Simple examples:

All woman to suffer during childbirth for the sin of Eve.

The Flood that killed all things. Are we to believe every child deserved to die? Were the animals full of sin as well?

Same for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Every child deserved to die because every single person was evil.

There are more that our "just" God has done.

[Good Cheer]

He's fair and just. Always has been, always will be.

[ioon44]

He has done so in the past.

Simple examples:

All woman to suffer during childbirth for the sin of Eve.

The Flood that killed all things. Are we to believe every child deserved to die? Were the animals full of sin as well?

Same for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Every child deserved to die because every single person was evil.

There are more that our "just" God has done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImG07uBGhzI

This video truly brings a lot into perspective and should answer your questions as to why.

[Good Cheer]

Discovering the chapter by chapter and verse by verse teaching then standardized by Shepherd's Chapel in the early 90's was when the roles played by the nephilim, the vehicles (aka "horses"), the difference between prophecies called out in days versus months (moons), the seed war... oh so much that makes the bible so simple. Then bumping into the works of IDE Thomas, Jacques Vallee and yes, LA Marzulli (who studied under Thomas), and so many other authors such as JR Church, Chuck Missler and Michael Heiser. Many people of various views, preferring to embrace differing ideas in a few particulars but all brothers in Christ.

Simply put, we're not going to understand our role in this world without along the way also running into the role of the nephilim, the seed war and the workings from Mount Hermon.

[dverna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImG07uBGhzI

This video truly brings a lot into perspective and should answer your questions as to why.

A very interesting video. Do I conclude that when God commanded the Flood, Noah and his immediate family were the only people on earth of "pure seed"?

[ioon44]

Genesis 6:9 KJV Context

6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repented me that I have made them.
8But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

9These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

10And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
11The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
12And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

[Good Cheer]

It's always been a seed war ever since God made us flesh.

[ioon44]

It's always been a seed war ever since God made us flesh.


Genesis 3:15 English Standard Version
15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”

[Good Cheer]

Speaking of the crooked serpent, Christ's heel and such things, many years ago I came to understand that the story of Messiah is shown in the constellations as viewed from Earth and is sculpted into the face of the planet for this time.
About thirty years ago I sat down with my better 2/3's with the world atlas opened to the two page spread of the Mideast and showed it to her. We stared at each other wide eyed across the dinner table with goose bumps as we felt the spirit moving through the room. Like "WOW did you feel that?"!
By the way, this really is leading me to wonder what other signs God will give us including that in the heavens of the return of Christ. We'll see!

[ioon44]

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/newly-discovered-green-comet-is-passing-by-earth-this-week-180982879/

Is this green comet maybe a sign? Iniquity is associated with the color green.

[ioon44]

Speaking of the crooked serpent, Christ's heel and such things, many years ago I came to understand that the story of Messiah is shown in the constellations as viewed from Earth and is sculpted into the face of the planet for this time.
About thirty years ago I sat down with my better 2/3's with the world atlas opened to the two page spread of the Mideast and showed it to her. We stared at each other wide eyed across the dinner table with goose bumps as we felt the spirit moving through the room. Like "WOW did you feel that?"!
By the way, this really is leading me to wonder what other signs God will give us including that in the heavens of the return of Christ. We'll see!



https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=gospel+in+the+stars&view=detail&mid=77F3F8103CAB71F44D0077F3F8103CAB71F44D00&FORM=VIRE


Several have preached on the MAZZAROTH, I liked Dr James Kennedy's teaching best.

[Good Cheer]

Bullinger rocks. His Companion Bible is awesome.

317895

[Good Cheer]

Judgement...
I kinda bumped into Richard Coombes' work concerning America-Babylon.
He's certainly done his homework.

https://archive.org/details/coombs-america-the-babylon

[Good Cheer]

There's an old video from Coombes available...

https://www.bitchute.com/video/QAzQKCE8ZkG8/

[.429&H110]

Did anybody notice?
People have been peeing on the streets of New York
so our Lord flushed His big toilet.

A day of rain in NYC stopped the roads, trains, airports, 8" was a disaster.
What would they do if they had rain for two days? Or forty?
Everybody knows the sea is rising. Soon?
Maybe this winter eight inches of rain would make eight feet of snow.
God's warning to NYC.
He made this world, though some deny Him.

[Good Cheer]

As relating to judgement and judged on what basis...
Was Dr. Heiser correct? Where scripture is commonly rendered in English as saying we were made in their image, is the correct meaning actually that were we made our creator's representatives on this planet?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TZ8weN5uHI&t=16s

[Bigslug]

After reading the OP, I might suggest that you read Blood and Treasure: Daniel Boone and the Fight for America's First Frontier, by Bob Drury and Tom Clavin. The book goes pretty deep into the social/political landscape that formed the 18th Century on the N. American continent. There was a good deal more to discontent and unease with British rule than taxation on the narrow strip of "civilization" on the coast (which was largely levied to pay off the Seven Years/French & Indian War). A great deal of real life and death stuff was going on inland between England, the other European powers trying to carve their chunk out of the New World, and the various attempts to deal with dozens of native tribes either forcefully or by treaties legitimate or otherwise. There was no small amount of "Well, that may be good on paper for the folks in Charleston and New York, but out here west of the Smokies it's gonna get a lot of us scalped".

Then there's the triangle trade of slaves to the Caribbean and every other example of individuals being ground to dust for the good of Empire. Those either directly under the grinding wheel or feeling the strain of a distant, ineffective government clueless to their frontier realities are going to have a hard time accepting that authority as the proxy of a loving god. Essentially, if King George and the British Parliament were God, there was a very real sense of "God ain't gettin' it done out here". At the point the American Revolution kicked off, that pot had been simmering for at least 3-4 generations.

And pause for a moment to think who would write something like Romans 13: probably some tax collector trying to use the threat of eternal damnation as a shield against being tarred and feathered.

If you go down the road of The Divine Right of Kings, and those kings are evil, oppressive, self-serving, or just incompetent inbreds, then what does that say about the god that gave them that right?

This is where the opening salvo of the Declaration of Independence sprouts from. Look up and read those first couple paragraphs and it'll be clear that the founders saw a cycle of evil that needed to be broken, and they did indeed invoke "Nature's God" in justifying the breaking of it.

[dverna]

Bigslug, Romans was written by Paul about 50-60 years after Jesus died. It was written to the people of Rome.

I struggle with accepting God's word on obeying the authority of rulers...either Kings, or those who are "elected" to govern over us. IMO most people are in the same boat. Thus, why this is posted in this subforum.

Man has used God's word to justify horrible acts over the centuries. Man has also ignored God's word when it does not fit his desires.

Our rebellion against King George may have been justified in our minds but it seems to go against His word. So far, no one has offered scripture that makes our rebellion justified by His word. And your justification, though having merit, is not supported by scripture.

One other comment. It is interesting that God views us as sheep. It is a description most men and especially Americans abhor. Yet that is His take on us. It is a metaphor that encapsulates His view of man. We need to be led, and cared for, and are unable to fend for ourselves...especially in spiritual matters.

God has done things to take away what we consider "God given rights" in the past. God sent the Jews into slavery for 400 years. God used the Egyptians to accomplish His goal. I doubt that means He blessed the Egyptians, but He certainly had an issue with His "chosen people".

We Americans tend to think we are special. We might be, but only because God has permitted it....for the time being. I wonder how special we will be with 8 million (and growing) illegal aliens flooding our country and demanding "their rights".

God works in ways we cannot comprehend.

I gather you do not believe in God. I was there for decades as well. My arrogance kept me from Him. If you need to justify every belief/desire you have in scripture, you will have strong walls against Him. If you accept you cannot understand everything in life (or death) the gate will start to open for you.

I pray your journey goes well.

[justindad]

<snip>

If you go down the road of The Divine Right of Kings, and those kings are evil, oppressive, self-serving, or just incompetent inbreds, then what does that say about the god that gave them that right?


1 Samuel 8:4-9

Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah and said to him, “Behold, you are old and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now appoint for us a king to judge us like all the nations.” But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” And Samuel prayed to the LORD. And the LORD said to Samuel, “Obey the voice of the people in all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me from being king over them. According to all the deeds that they have done, from the day I brought them up out of Egypt even to this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are also doing to you. Now then, obey their voice; only you shall solemnly warn them and show them the ways of the king who shall reign over them.”

Israel’s appointment of a king was a rejection of GOD. The kings we have are a reflection of our own collective hearts. We reap what we sow. Or, do we lack free will?

[Alabama358]

Hosea 8:4
4 They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off.

[Hannibal]

If often wondered about this myself. There have been many leaders in the past who committed acts that are clearly declared sinful at best in the Bible.

Yet many Christians found themselves living under the rule of those leaders. So what were they to do?

This is probably going to set off a firestorm but here goes.

Why are there so many apparent contradictions in the Bible? And before anyone says it's because we as people aren't intelligent enough to understand then answer another question.

Why can the Creator not convey his wishes and intentions in such a manner that it's only difficult to understand if a person is intentionally obtuse?

You should not have to be a genius to understand what the Creator wants. A person of below average intelligence should be able to understand it clearly.

Yet the confusion continues and the Creator would have to know that. So it's intentionally ambiguous? Akin to navigating a spiritual minefield?

Interesting.

[dverna]

Good post Hannibal.

It makes a thinking person question if those who assembled and translated the Bible were “Divinely inspired”. But that opens up a 55 gallon can of worms. That one book has spawned over 1200 Christian sects who believe their understanding of the Bible is the correct one.

I have many questions and doubts but still believe in God. The Bible is 100% correct on many subjects and foremost among them is that man is a natural born sinner.

[Good Cheer]

Royalty is organized crime pretending to go legit.
God said not to do it* but Nooooo, they wanted them a real kingly king.
As for governments being put in place by God, you bet'cha. This is an ongoing running process with co-creation happening 24/7. But before anybody goes all new agey over me saying co-creation, back up and think a moment. We come here into this processing plant temporarily and then we become dearly departed through the shipping department as a product. An end product that we participate in creating. Hence co-creation. And all that stuff that people like to spout off about saying "Oh I just can't see how a loving god could let that happen"... eh, guess what. If He didn't love us then we wouldn't have been provided this opportunity.
OK, end of rant. I need to go dig potatoes before it starts raining.

*He's smart like that.

[Alabama358]

Why are there so many apparent contradictions in the Bible? And before anyone says it's because we as people aren't intelligent enough to understand then answer another question.

Why can the Creator not convey his wishes and intentions in such a manner that it's only difficult to understand if a person is intentionally obtuse?

You should not have to be a genius to understand what the Creator wants. A person of below average intelligence should be able to understand it clearly.

Yet the confusion continues and the Creator would have to know that. So it's intentionally ambiguous? Akin to navigating a spiritual minefield?

Interesting.

I didn't post the Hosea quote to point out a contradiction in scripture because I think the Bible is the perfect preserved word of GOD without contradiction.

Some folks sit in a church pew once a week for an hour trying to stay awake and toss a wad of cash in the collection box and think they have fulfilled their obligation.
Some folks spend more time at their reloading bench developing loads then they do reading and trying to understand scripture
Some folks spend more time bouncing around on social media on their smart phones and computers then they do with their Bible open

Above are JUST a few reasons folks have a hard time connecting the dots

1 Corinthians 14:33
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Or possibly...
1 Corinthians 2:14
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I could probably fill the page up with reasons why folks have a difficult time understanding the Bible... but one thing is for sure and for certain. It is NOT because GOD try to make it intentionally ambiguous.

[ioon44]

I didn't post the Hosea quote to point out a contradiction in scripture because I think the Bible is the perfect preserved word of GOD without contradiction.

Some folks sit in a church pew once a week for an hour trying to stay awake and toss a wad of cash in the collection box and think they have fulfilled their obligation.
Some folks spend more time at their reloading bench developing loads then they do reading and trying to understand scripture
Some folks spend more time bouncing around on social media on their smart phones and computers then they do with their Bible open

Above are JUST a few reasons folks have a hard time connecting the dots

1 Corinthians 14:33
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Or possibly...
1 Corinthians 2:14
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I could probably fill the page up with reasons why folks have a difficult time understanding the Bible... but one thing is for sure and for certain. It is NOT because GOD try to make it intentionally ambiguous.

Yep, I agree. Alot of people want the Bible to say what suits their lifestyle not the truth of the Bible.

[.429&H110]

Will America be judged? Yes, right now.
When God was defied, He sent His children into slavery.

What is drug addiction, if not slavery?
We have made porn portable, called it progress.
All I see is thumbs on screens, scrolling.

I did not grow up in any church, went to one or two. got married in one.
Jesus saved me from myself at age 25. Now I am an Independent Baptist.

If it isn't in the Book, it isn't. We are not allowed to add anything.

I wasted a few years after I was saved wondering if this God thing was really real, chasing the proofs of God. I studied the six or seven ways the world will end, came up with an opinion of my own. Chased the idea that our Bible is a poor translation, found that it translates the Word of God as well as we can understand it. I believe the King James is as good as we can do with our poor skills, and that we have to read it to our kids, until the kids finally learn phonics. As a result of my research I have decided the earth is not billions of years old, but was not founded on a Sunday in 4006BC either. The Trinity that I know is outside of time, right here right now laughing at my poor attempts to be humble. I have witnessed God directly answering prayer. He has done a great Work in America, and is not finished, ever. We must choose well, choose the Light, and support our local church because evil people are shooting at them.

You can find apparent contradictions in the King James.
King James primacy is a subject worth studying.
You can read St Paul's original Greek alongside English in BibleHub. Greek syntax is like Yoda's.

Just remember Satan's lie:"Did God really say?"

[justindad]

If you are looking for reasons to deny GOD, you will find them. If you sincerely pursue GOD, the Holy Spirit will give you understanding.

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
John 14:26

It seems to me that GOD created a world where we get to choose whether or not we want to spend eternity with our Creator.

[Good Cheer]

It seems to me that GOD created a world where we get to choose whether or not we want to spend eternity with our Creator.

Yes sir, that does seem to be the case.

[Hannibal]

Good post Hannibal.

It makes a thinking person question if those who assembled and translated the Bible were “Divinely inspired”. But that opens up a 55 gallon can of worms. That one book has spawned over 1200 Christian sects who believe their understanding of the Bible is the correct one.

I have many questions and doubts but still believe in God. The Bible is 100% correct on many subjects and foremost among them is that man is a natural born sinner.

I agree with your thinking. Too many things have occurred in my life that can only be reasonably explained by an intervention. Most I could not understand at the time, some became clear later on and some I'm still trying to comprehend.

I do think if you ask for help from God you will receive it. I also believe that the help you receive will not always appear to be help and can nearly never be recognized as help when it occurs. I think that's why it's called faith.

I will add that I do not believe snippets of scripture can or should be used to support a specific point. No more than taking snippets of my previous post.

Both are to be taken in their entirety.

[justindad]

But when I speak to you, I will open your mouth and you will say to them, ‘This is what the Lord God says:’ The one who hears, let him hear; and the one who refuses, let him refuse; for they are a rebellious house.

Ezekiel 3:27, NASB

[1hole]

Have you considered that the title of 'Greatest County in the World today' is nothing more than your personal opinion?

Who declared that to be the case? .....

You ask an interesting opinion question.

It seems to me that individual countries vary as much as individual people; all seem to have some widely varying mix of "good" and "bad" qualities, as does our own choices of what is better.

I ask, what do you believe makes a country "good", "better" and "bad" than ours and where can we find it?

World wide, I see millions of migrants seeking entrance into other countries at great cost and risk to themselves. It seems most of the world's wondering seekers prefer the USA above all other countries but admit I have no idea why and I have no data to confirm my perception.

If you believe I'm wrong about us I have to wonder which country/countries you consider to be better than ours, and ask for a few specific points about why you feel that way.

[Hannibal]

You ask an interesting opinion question.

It seems to me that individual countries vary as much as individual people; all seem to have some widely varying mix of "good" and "bad" qualities, as does our own choices of what is better.

I ask, what do you believe makes a country "good", "better" and "bad" than ours and where can we find it?

World wide, I see millions of migrants seeking entrance into other countries at great cost and risk to themselves. It seems most of the world's wondering seekers prefer the USA above all other countries but admit I have no idea why and I have no data to confirm my perception.

If you believe I'm wrong about us I have to wonder which country/countries you consider to be better than ours, and ask for a few specific points about why you feel that way.

I think it's pretty obvious. Handouts. Fly the flag of your own country and preach their rhetoric and we'll tolerate it. Sneak in and that's OK. Here. Have an ID. Have a baby here and not only will the hospital bill be paid for you're now anchored. Can't speak English? That's OK. Press '2' if you want English. Burn the US flag? That's OK. We'll put you on the news and say that's your right. I could go on at length but you get the idea.

Most other countries in the world if you try that **** they'll unceremoniously execute you and not think twice about it.

THAT'S why.

[Alabama358]

I think it's pretty obvious. Handouts. Fly the flag of your own country and preach their rhetoric and we'll tolerate it. Sneak in and that's OK. Here. Have an ID. Have a baby here and not only will the hospital bill be paid for you're now anchored. Can't speak English? That's OK. Press '2' if you want English. Burn the US flag? That's OK. We'll put you on the news and say that's your right. I could go on at length but you get the idea.

Most other countries in the world if you try that **** they'll unceremoniously execute you and not think twice about it.

THAT'S why.

I think you kind of proved his point without even mentioning

1. The Largest Christian nation in the world
2. The Most advanced medical care in the world
3. The Greatest economy in the world
4. The Greatest military in the world
5. The most industrious nation in the world
6. The 2nd Amendment and a pretty decent list of God given rights guaranteed to every citizen from cradle to grave
7. Natural Resources that will out last anyone reading this thread
8. The Greatest opportunity for a young person to be anything he or she desires with hard work and discipline.
9. The Winchester Rifle

The negative things that you mentioned above are true and revolting... and are a product of Liberal/Progressive/Democrat reprobate. But they do not define us as a nation and I believe will eventually sort themselves out.

[Hannibal]

I think you kind of proved his point without even mentioning

1. The Largest Christian nation in the world
2. The Most advanced medical care in the world
3. The Greatest economy in the world
4. The Greatest military in the world
5. The most industrious nation in the world
6. The 2nd Amendment and a pretty decent list of God given rights guaranteed to every citizen from cradle to grave
7. Natural Resources that will out last anyone reading this thread
8. The Greatest opportunity for a young person to be anything he or she desires with hard work and discipline.
9. The Winchester Rifle

The negative things that you mentioned above are true and revolting... and are a product of Liberal/Progressive/Democrat reprobate. But they do not define us as a nation and I believe will eventually sort themselves out.

If anyone doesn't want to assimilate, obey the country's laws, get a job and live in peace I personally would like to see them living elsewhere. No matter where they were born or how long they've been here.

[Alabama358]

If anyone doesn't want to assimilate, obey the country's laws, get a job and live in peace I personally would like to see them living elsewhere. No matter where they were born or how long they've been here.

If you are talking about illegal non-citizens I 100% agree... I give no quarter to them or their kind!

If you are talking about natural born or legal immigrant American citizens I 100% disagree, they have every right that you or I have... even if they are moral degenerates. (We probably make it to easy on the slackers but that is the current Law of the Land.)
I am not talking about someone sneaking across the border and dropping a litter of pups and calling them citizens under the guise of the 14th Amendment. Wrong interpretation IMO

[.429&H110]

Largest Christian nation? Maybe at one time.

America has, by Google, rounded
8 million Jewish (only 10 million live in all Israel)
4 million Moslem (worldwide there are a lot of Moslems)
There may be more Christians in China than America, because of our missionaries.

I would guess, America has 200 million Taylor Swifties.
John Lennon said he was bigger than Jesus, according to the polls, he was correct.
I have to endure another 90% Disney Christmas. Happy Halloween. The TV is off.
Can America muster 50% Christian? I fear not.

And from where I am sitting, health care for old folks is going away.
We won't know about our Army until it is tested, as the Russians found out.
Manned aircraft are as obsolete as the chariot. Marines don't drive tanks, they destroy them.
We have abundant natural resources that cannot be used because of the greenies who hate us.
We don't make Winchesters like we used to.
Re-elect nobody.

[Alabama358]

Largest Christian nation? Maybe at one time.

America has, by Google, rounded
8 million Jewish (only 10 million live in all Israel)
4 million Moslem (worldwide there are a lot of Moslems)
There may be more Christians in China than America, because of our missionaries.

I would guess, America has 200 million Taylor Swifties.
John Lennon said he was bigger than Jesus, according to the polls, he was correct.
I have to endure another 90% Disney Christmas. Happy Halloween. The TV is off.
Can America muster 50% Christian? I fear not. Keep the TV off and council and fellowship among brethren

And from where I am sitting, health care for old folks is going away. I can't think of another country I would rather be growing old in

We won't know about our Army until it is tested, as the Russians found out. It depends on where you get your news/propaganda from... The Russians had won that war early on but it was in the best interest of the Military Industrial Complex to keep the 100s of BILLIONS of dollars flowing by telling people how poorly the Russians were doing. Now that there is another fountain of tax payer dollars in another theater of war, Ukraine (one of the most corrupt governments in existence... why do you think that lesbian president of the teacher union made 3 trips over to Ukraine...$$$ maybe?) will settle and that little midget Zelenskyy will start figuring out how to spend the PILES of money that he has squirreled away at the cost of his own people.

Manned aircraft are as obsolete as the chariot. Marines don't drive tanks, they destroy them. I think the Marines at 1st Tank Battalion 1st Marine Division would argue that they do drive tanks and use them to destroy enemy tanks... Manned aircraft will still be a thing for at least another decade until the AI infrastructure is in place

We have abundant natural resources that cannot be used because of the greenies who hate us. They always make a lot of noise until they get hungry

We don't make Winchesters like we used to.Buy an old one

Re-elect nobody.

From Google so take it for what its worth
319040

But I completely understand your protest comments.

[Hannibal]

If you are talking about illegal non-citizens I 100% agree... I give no quarter to them or their kind!

If you are talking about natural born or legal immigrant American citizens I 100% disagree, they have every right that you or I have... even if they are moral degenerates. (We probably make it to easy on the slackers but that is the current Law of the Land.)
I am not talking about someone sneaking across the border and dropping a litter of pups and calling them citizens under the guise of the 14th Amendment. Wrong interpretation IMO

They can protest all they want so long as it's peaceful. Which means no bodily injury, death or destruction of property.

If they want to call a man a woman or vis-a-vis because they wear clothes and take pills that's a soild NO from me.

If they want to coach children on gender in public grade school then that's a solid NO from me.

If they want reparations and excuses for being lazy and stupid that's a solid NO from me.

If they want excessive compensation for unskilled labor that's a solid NO from me.

If they want to force someone else to pay for their secondary education choices that's a solid NO from me.

If they want men to be allowed to compete in women's sports that's a solid NO from me.

If they want admission or hiring standards to factor in gender or race that's a solid NO from me.

If they see the US flag as a symbol of racism or oppression then why are they here? GET OUT.

[Alabama358]

They can protest all they want so long as it's peaceful. Which means no bodily injury, death or destruction of property.

If they want to call a man a woman or vis-a-vis because they wear clothes and take pills that's a soild NO from me.

If they want to coach children on gender in public grade school then that's a solid NO from me.

If they want reparations and excuses for being lazy and stupid that's a solid NO from me.

If they want excessive compensation for unskilled labor that's a solid NO from me.

If they want to force someone else to pay for their secondary education choices that's a solid NO from me.

If they want men to be allowed to compete in women's sports that's a solid NO from me.

If they want admission or hiring standards to factor in gender or race that's a solid NO from me.

If they see the US flag as a symbol of racism or oppression then why are they here? GET OUT.

Your Preaching to the choir brother... I whole hardly agree with everything you said.
I would add that any of these freaks trying to flip a child's gender in grade school or at any age deserve a more direct and immediate approach of recompense.

[Scrounge]

As we celebrate Independence from Britain, are we mocking God's word and His authority?

Romans 13:
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

The main reasons for the Revolutionary War were discontent regarding Britain imposing new taxes (which they had the authority to do), and their desire for more control of the colonies (which they also had the authority to do).

It does not appear that Britain was evil and that seems about the only reason the Bible speaks to for not obeying the government.

IMHO, the Founders were prayerful people. I'm pretty sure they thought long and hard, and prayed on their knees long and hard, as well. The British government was levying taxes on the colonists that they were not levying on the folks who stayed home. They were also not admitting that the colonists had the same rights as other Englishmen. As for were they evil or not? I'm pretty sure my Irish and Scots ancestors felt they were, at least on and off. That "scalping" thing they taught the Native Americans? They practiced that on the wild Irish tribesmen and their families. And to perhaps a lesser extent on the Scots Highlanders. That's why they made note of a long train of abuses: Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States.

To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our Brittish brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

Unless they were lying, it's pretty clear to me that they had just cause. And if He didn't want them to succeed, they would not have. As I read the histories, it was pretty close for a while there. And it is my belief that the folks who wrote that, and our Constitution were inspired by God to do so.

Bill

[Hannibal]

Your Preaching to the choir brother... I whole hardly agree with everything you said.
I would add that any of these freaks trying to flip a child's gender in grade school or at any age deserve a more direct and immediate approach of recompense.

It seemed to me you were asking for clarification so I provided it. If I misunderstood your post I apologize. Honest mistake on my part.

I'll add I completely agree that those attempting to take advantage of the innocence of children deserve a very special type of punishment. But that's something reserved for experience after they're deceased IMO.

[.429&H110]

Well, thank you for the kind words.
Forgive me for being discouraged, the only salvation I see for America is a return to God, a Repentance a Salvation.
Our 3 million new voters who just walked into America uninvited are from a very Roman Catholic Central America.
Maybe they will remember why they came here, and want better for their children.
"With God, nothing is impossible"

[Hannibal]

Well, thank you for the kind words.
Forgive me for being discouraged, the only salvation I see for America is a return to God, a Repentance a Salvation.
Our 3 million new voters who just walked into America uninvited are from a very Roman Catholic Central America.
Maybe they will remember why they came here, and want better for their children.
"With God, nothing is impossible"

I'd like to think they're predominantly Roman Catholic and just looking for a better life. Trouble is if even 5% of them aren't, we have a big problem. 150,000 new problems if that's right.

[Alabama358]

"With God, nothing is impossible"

Amen!

[Bigslug]

Bigslug, Romans was written by Paul about 50-60 years after Jesus died. It was written to the people of Rome.

I struggle with accepting God's word on obeying the authority of rulers...either Kings, or those who are "elected" to govern over us. IMO most people are in the same boat. Thus, why this is posted in this subforum.

Man has used God's word to justify horrible acts over the centuries. Man has also ignored God's word when it does not fit his desires.

Our rebellion against King George may have been justified in our minds but it seems to go against His word. So far, no one has offered scripture that makes our rebellion justified by His word. And your justification, though having merit, is not supported by scripture.

One other comment. It is interesting that God views us as sheep. It is a description most men and especially Americans abhor. Yet that is His take on us. It is a metaphor that encapsulates His view of man. We need to be led, and cared for, and are unable to fend for ourselves...especially in spiritual matters.

God has done things to take away what we consider "God given rights" in the past. God sent the Jews into slavery for 400 years. God used the Egyptians to accomplish His goal. I doubt that means He blessed the Egyptians, but He certainly had an issue with His "chosen people".

We Americans tend to think we are special. We might be, but only because God has permitted it....for the time being. I wonder how special we will be with 8 million (and growing) illegal aliens flooding our country and demanding "their rights".

God works in ways we cannot comprehend.

I gather you do not believe in God. I was there for decades as well. My arrogance kept me from Him. If you need to justify every belief/desire you have in scripture, you will have strong walls against Him. If you accept you cannot understand everything in life (or death) the gate will start to open for you.

I pray your journey goes well.

You're right on me not believing in God. . .or as Matthew Quigley said of handguns, "I never had much use for one" who insists on "moving in mysterious ways", but that really isn't the issue here, other than to give me a different viewpoint from which to express my thoughts.

The common Christian view is that God is perfect and his creation, mankind, is deeply flawed. To this Man Of Extreme Doubt, this is like continuing to insist that Ford is infallible after they created the Pinto, but I'll accept that notion as truth for the moment while we continue to ponder the sinfulness of the American Revolution - as filtered through scripture.

The basic notion of your Romans passage is that King George III was placed on his throne by God and that his word should have been considered one and the same as the Almighty's. This may be an easy thing for a dirty peasant in a mud hut to accept when looking at impressive stone mansions, jeweled crowns, fur robes, and the history of his lineage (which was, of course, written by the victors), etc..., but what about George's Parliament? How about his governors? His troops that order you out of your hard-won frontier home in order to move you back to the "correct" side of a treaty line, maybe taking liberties with your wife and daughters in the process? At each and every point in that chain of command was a fallible human with the capacity to abuse his authority, take bribes, or come down on either side of the moral conflicts presented by governance for a multitude of reasons.

So on the one hand, you have a book providing guidance on how to live and try to make a better life, and on the other the same book tells you that it's OK for your government (which is Earthly and composed of flawed humans) to crush your efforts. While I think it's ludicrous for us to assume that every single member of the Rebellion consulted his Bible before joining the cause (a lot of them were probably just fed up and ticked off), those that did undoubtedly saw that contradiction.

At the end of the day - scripturally speaking - you would have had Loyalists quoting Romans as justification to continue to bend over and take it in the keister, and Rebels presenting their own quotes as equally valid reason to "spit on their hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats". If the American Revolution was indeed sinful, the Rebels still managed to prevail. . .which sparked a similar successful rejection of the divine right of kings in France in 1789, and another in Russia in 1917. Then you can also consider the American Revolution as a blueprint for the general widespread collapse of monarchies in the wake of WWI after millions died for reasons little more sophisticated than the nobility of Europe had "family trouble" and sent the serfs to sort it out by proxy. If God truly thought those "authorities" were his mouthpiece, then why did so many of them crash and burn within such a relatively short historical span of about 140 years? The "sheep", may or may not need to be led, but they tend to take exception to being led poorly.

Anybody picking up the banner of revolution is risking exile, imprisonment, execution, death in combat, and probably more than a few nights sleeping in accommodations far short of five-star. It certainly isn't a "feel good" kind of sin that one undertakes on a whim. Any sane person will only go down that road when they feel all other paths are blocked. I suppose those rebels of history could have wrangled with using the nearly 2,000 year old writings of a prophet's follower (I will note here not of the prophet or God himself) as their barometer for judging whether or not something was evil, but instead they chose to use the sense that God supposedly gave them to recognize the evil that they felt was staring them straight in the face.

That all is of course just my admittedly secular take on it, but you launched this thread seeking additional scripture to counter Romans and justify the Declaration of Independence. I would therefore submit that those earthly governmental authorities have an ingrained flawed-human tendency to present themselves as false prophets, and a web quick search will give you plenty of biblical statements on those:

Matthew 7:15 - “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves."

Matthew 24-11 - "And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray."

Matthew 24-24 - "For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect."

2 Corinthians 11:13-15 - "For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds."

All of which can be summed up more contemporarily by:

Reagan 8/12/86: "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are 'I'm from the government, and I'm here to help'".

From your viewpoint, might not those revolutions of 1776 to @1920 have been the righteous simply clearing out the false gods? If nothing else, it at least tore down a hereditary system of false prophecy and forced any new would-be false prophets to peddle their lies on their own merits. Apologies if that rambled a tad, but when you consider the acts governments often commit under the premise of "greater good", I think there's easily as much biblical justification that Washington, Adams, Jefferson, etc... were far more saints than sinners.

[Good Cheer]

When you decide to argue over whether or not our creator decides who to put in charge then sooner or later you're going to run into who offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world, who put him in charge and why. If you don't get, get cracking on your studies.

[dverna]

You're right on me not believing in God. . .or as Matthew Quigley said of handguns, "I never had much use for one" who insists on "moving in mysterious ways", but that really isn't the issue here, other than to give me a different viewpoint from which to express my thoughts.

The common Christian view is that God is perfect and his creation, mankind, is deeply flawed. To this Man Of Extreme Doubt, this is like continuing to insist that Ford is infallible after they created the Pinto, but I'll accept that notion as truth for the moment while we continue to ponder the sinfulness of the American Revolution - as filtered through scripture.

The basic notion of your Romans passage is that King George III was placed on his throne by God and that his word should have been considered one and the same as the Almighty's. This may be an easy thing for a dirty peasant in a mud hut to accept when looking at impressive stone mansions, jeweled crowns, fur robes, and the history of his lineage (which was, of course, written by the victors), etc..., but what about George's Parliament? How about his governors? His troops that order you out of your hard-won frontier home in order to move you back to the "correct" side of a treaty line, maybe taking liberties with your wife and daughters in the process? At each and every point in that chain of command was a fallible human with the capacity to abuse his authority, take bribes, or come down on either side of the moral conflicts presented by governance for a multitude of reasons.

So on the one hand, you have a book providing guidance on how to live and try to make a better life, and on the other the same book tells you that it's OK for your government (which is Earthly and composed of flawed humans) to crush your efforts. While I think it's ludicrous for us to assume that every single member of the Rebellion consulted his Bible before joining the cause (a lot of them were probably just fed up and ticked off), those that did undoubtedly saw that contradiction.

At the end of the day - scripturally speaking - you would have had Loyalists quoting Romans as justification to continue to bend over and take it in the keister, and Rebels presenting their own quotes as equally valid reason to "spit on their hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats". If the American Revolution was indeed sinful, the Rebels still managed to prevail. . .which sparked a similar successful rejection of the divine right of kings in France in 1789, and another in Russia in 1917. Then you can also consider the American Revolution as a blueprint for the general widespread collapse of monarchies in the wake of WWI after millions died for reasons little more sophisticated than the nobility of Europe had "family trouble" and sent the serfs to sort it out by proxy. If God truly thought those "authorities" were his mouthpiece, then why did so many of them crash and burn within such a relatively short historical span of about 140 years? The "sheep", may or may not need to be led, but they tend to take exception to being led poorly.

Anybody picking up the banner of revolution is risking exile, imprisonment, execution, death in combat, and probably more than a few nights sleeping in accommodations far short of five-star. It certainly isn't a "feel good" kind of sin that one undertakes on a whim. Any sane person will only go down that road when they feel all other paths are blocked. I suppose those rebels of history could have wrangled with using the nearly 2,000 year old writings of a prophet's follower (I will note here not of the prophet or God himself) as their barometer for judging whether or not something was evil, but instead they chose to use the sense that God supposedly gave them to recognize the evil that they felt was staring them straight in the face.

That all is of course just my admittedly secular take on it, but you launched this thread seeking additional scripture to counter Romans and justify the Declaration of Independence. I would therefore submit that those earthly governmental authorities have an ingrained flawed-human tendency to present themselves as false prophets, and a web quick search will give you plenty of biblical statements on those:

Matthew 7:15 - “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves."

Matthew 24-11 - "And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray."

Matthew 24-24 - "For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect."

2 Corinthians 11:13-15 - "For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds."

All of which can be summed up more contemporarily by:

Reagan 8/12/86: "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are 'I'm from the government, and I'm here to help'".

From your viewpoint, might not those revolutions of 1776 to @1920 have been the righteous simply clearing out the false gods? If nothing else, it at least tore down a hereditary system of false prophecy and forced any new would-be false prophets to peddle their lies on their own merits. Apologies if that rambled a tad, but when you consider the acts governments often commit under the premise of "greater good", I think there's easily as much biblical justification that Washington, Adams, Jefferson, etc... were far more saints than sinners.

I am led to believe that the bible holds all the answers to how to live my life. Yet, I do not find all the answers in the bible. I am neither uneducated, nor below normal in intelligence, so I end up frustrated.

I have also been told the bible is "the perfect inspired word of God".

Lastly, that man cannot comprehend how God works.

I have concluded:
The bible does not have all the answers.
The bible is not 100% the inspired word of God.
Man cannot comprehend how God works.

I believe in God. He sent His son to die for our sins to provide a pathway to eternal life. In general, the bible gives us moral foundations to live by.

Man has used God to justify what man wants to do. The British prayed to the same God as the Revolutionaries. The Germans who built concentration camps prayed to the same God as the Allies who liberated them. And on, and on, and on...

Our founding fathers were men. Highly intelligent men, but still men. They certainly were not saints. They did the best they could to guide us to "one nation under God". Did they use God to justify their actions? I believe that is the case. Were they divinely inspired? I doubt it.

[Good Cheer]

Some people make note of the bible not being the encyclopedia galactica.
Actually it's an abbreviated and revised version of a survival manual for operations in enemy territory.
:rolleyes:

[ioon44]

Basic
Istructions
Before
Leaving
Earth.

[Bmi48219]

Free will not withstanding, surely an All knowing - All seeing God was aware from the beginning that we in the US would come up short in the faith department, just as many previous global powers had.
Our rebellion and the resulting punishment was foreseen eons ago.

[clearwater]

It is a fallen world, making an Idol of the US will only lead to disappointment. Judging others is also fraught. Look inward.

[Good Cheer]

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/destruction-of-city-by-space-rock-may-have-inspired-biblical-story-of-sodom-180978734/

So like with the Chicxulub meteor the slide rule cats are pointing out that our father is an excellent marksman.

[dverna]

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/destruction-of-city-by-space-rock-may-have-inspired-biblical-story-of-sodom-180978734/

So like with the Chicxulub meteor the slide rule cats are pointing out that our father is an excellent marksman.

Interesting article. It makes one think and smile.

[ioon44]

Psalm 97:5

New American Standard Bible
The mountains melted like wax at the presence of the LORD, At the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.