Is there a point to water dropping cast ?

[reloader X]

IF, youre going to bake them to PC ? I dont dump my pc'd bullets in water outta the oven. I set the timer & do other things
i also use mo bullet co #2 alloy

[Winger Ed.]

Years ago, everybody cast, and dropped 'em on a towel.
Then, you had to heat treat everything. You'd put a boolit in an oven and keep raising the temp. until it 'slumped'.
Back the temp. off some, run your boolits in the oven awhile, and then dump them in cold water.

Pretty soon, some folks started dropping them out of the mold into cold water to get the tempering.
I still drop into cold water as it's just fast and handy for me.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

If you truly inderstand metalurgy, any tempering of soft metal will eventually return to the 'memory' phase of the initial metal and soften over time whether it is quenched or not. The only way to ensure constant hardness is via the alloy that you mix in the first place.

[414gates]

Dropping cast lead alloy in water just cools it down faster, and you want to do that because if you keep dropping hot bullets from the mould on top of each other in a bucket with no water, you might end up with a whole lot of them being deformed, especially if they are heavy.

CORRECTION [ thank you to Dusty Bannister for pointing out my mistake ] : Lead does not harden by quenching.

Lead alloy age hardens. Let your cast bullets sit for two weeks, and that's about as hard as they're going to get.

I dump my cast bullets into water from the mould to cool them quickly.

I leave my PC bullets to air cool.

[Winger Ed.]

Dropping cast lead alloy in water just cools it down faster,

I'm not a chemist, but I'd heard more than a few times there has to be a certain amount of Antimony, Arsenic, or maybe both
for them to harden/temper at all.

[Dusty Bannister]

Lead alloy does not harden by quenching.

Lead alloy age hardens. Let your cast bullets sit for two weeks, and that's about as hard as they're going to get.


414 Gates, are you talking pure lead or a lead alloy containing antimony and tin? Pure lead is known to age soften. Pure lead will not quench harden.

[Half Dog]

I weigh my bullets. Dropping them in water allows me to handle them sooner.

[Hick]

I cast in batches of at least 100, usually 200-400, and just drop them on an old cotton bathroom rug. By the time I'm done casting a batch they are cool anyway. After PC I let them air cool.

[facetious]

When you water drop a boolit you get a finer grain Structure than a air cooled boolit. This is what makes it stronger.

[TD1886]

If the lead bullet has the hardening alloys in it of Antimony and Arsenic, plus Tin, being very hot out of the mould dropped in the water hardens it....then, then, then, you have to let it age for two weeks minimum so it hardens more and eventually to it's final stage or hardness. To get it even harder you would have to oven heat treat the bullet to a temperature below slumping, hold the that temperature for a period of time, then water quench it. If you're not going to push rifle cast bullets to the limit you can just drop them on a towel and let them air cool. Most pistol/revolver cast bullets you do not need that hard of an alloy or have to heat treat them. Many revolver bullets don't have the hardening alloys in them to achieve that. Most people shoot lead/tin cast bullets in revolvers and many BP rifle cartridges such as the 45-70.

[Hannibal]

Lead alloy does not harden by quenching.

Lead alloy age hardens. Let your cast bullets sit for two weeks, and that's about as hard as they're going to get.



Sorry, but that statement is incorrect. I've personally tested it and I know better. Pure soft lead does not age harden nor will it harden by water dropping. Alloys are a completely different set of circumstances.

[kevin c]

I’m no metallurgist, but I’d guess reheating a bullet once or twice during the coating process could alter grain structure from whatever form it had before and regardless of how it got there. So maybe save a quench or heat treatment to the post coating stage?

[414gates]

I'm not a chemist, but I'd heard more than a few times there has to be a certain amount of Antimony, Arsenic, or maybe both
for them to harden/temper at all.

Correct, the other elements mixed with the lead are what cause it to be an alloy, and to age harden.

Pure lead can't age harden, it's not an alloy.


414 Gates, are you talking pure lead or a lead alloy containing antimony and tin? Pure lead is known to age soften. Pure lead will not quench harden.

Pure lead is not an alloy. It can't be hardened.

[414gates]

Sorry, but that statement is incorrect. I've personally tested it and I know better. Pure soft lead does not age harden nor will it harden by water dropping.

I specifically mentioned "lead alloy". I did not refer at all to pure lead. Pure lead is not an alloy, an alloy by definition is a mixture of metals.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Then of course, with the use of powder coating, you can drive relatively soft boolits at much higher velocity.

https://i.imgur.com/Gc8Va4ul.jpg

[Rapier]

Just to set the record streight, by studies, publications and my own split bullet testing, hard alloys, water dropped out of the mould, add a .004 to .006 depth of hardness to the bullet surface. It is the exact reason I use a 70-20-10 alloy, water dropped out of the mould, dried, powder coated then sized to the precise groove diameter. I get 2,500 fps with the 200 RCBS plain base PC bullets in my 358 MGP and it shoots 3/10 inch at 100.

This alloy and process fomes from Carlton Shy Jr, the Cast Bullet Editor for the Silhouette Magazine. Carlton an engineer, did extensive testing on casting alloys, air cool, water dropped, heat treating, etc. Then cut the bullets in layers to check the depth of hardness as created. He had near 200 casters test his alloys and loads, to develop what he called, his optimum loads and alloys. His articles and book, Casting For Handgun Accuracy is an interesting volume of work.Folks call it the Red Book, because it is red. Carlton also created a software for PCs called Compubal, it is for casters.
If you can find them, the book and software would be a good addition to any caster's library. I do have a copy of both.

Carlton, now gone, pre dates the powder coating of bullets, but he was a firm believer in the best lube and best alloy with water dropping. I would imagine he would have loved the PC process, to generate good accuracy at a higher velocity, and no GC.

[TD1886]

I’m no metallurgist, but I’d guess reheating a bullet once or twice during the coating process could alter grain structure from whatever form it had before and regardless of how it got there. So maybe save a quench or heat treatment to the post coating stage?

Reheating it over and over anneals and it has to go through the hardening process again as long as it has hardening alloys in it.

[TD1886]

Correct, the other elements mixed with the lead are what cause it to be an alloy, and to age harden.

Pure lead can't age harden, it's not an alloy.



Pure lead is not an alloy. It can't be hardened.

One of my very good friends is a metallurgist and pure lead can be harden. I'm not going through the process, just believe me. He's something to ponder. Back in the wooden spear day after man shaped the point they hardened it in a flame. Yeah yeah I know it's not metal.

[jsizemore]

One of my very good friends is a metallurgist and pure lead can be harden. I'm not going through the process, just believe me. He's something to ponder. Back in the wooden spear day after man shaped the point they hardened it in a flame. Yeah yeah I know it's not metal.

What BHN does the pure lead harden to?

[poppy42]

It seems to me that this same question comes up about every 6 months or so. Well this is what I know, from personal experience. I have tested 3 different boolets, cast from the same mold, at the same time, from the same batch of alloy. One air cooled, two water quenched. I tested the air cooled and one water quenched as to hardness. The water quenched was harder! The air cooled tested at about 11 bhn, the water quenched tested at about 13. The testing was done with a Lee hardness tester. As anyone who has used a Lee hardness tester knows, precision is not always possible with a Lee hardness tester. That’s why I stated the results as approximate. The actual numbers are not important, they are just numbers! The fact is, the water quenched was harder. Know for the third boolet. I didn’t initially test the third bullet for hardness. But considering the other two were tested and this one was water quenched just like the other water quenched bullet, I think it’s safe to say that the initial results probably would’ve been the same. Well then set that bullet aside for roughly a month. I then tested its hardness. And the results were the third bullet tested at roughly 15/16 BHN. Now y’all can do your own tests, decide what you want, come to your own conclusions. In my mind, for my purposes I have determined that is far as I’m concerned water quenching and alloy most definitely increases its hardness! Furthermore a water quench bullet that is allowed to sit for a period of time does game some hardness. I also believe although I did not test is that even an air cooled bullet if let that sit for a period of time will gain some hardness. As far as how much or what the actual BHN is. Quite honestly I don’t care! As far as I’m concerned BHN there’s nothing more than numbers. Personally I don’t care what those numbers are. If my cast Boolets there’s what I wanted to do in relationship to hardness that’s perfectly acceptable to me! I could care less what the actual numbers are! When I cast the bullet I have certain expectations for that bullet in relationship to expansion How it travels after it leaves the barrel of my firearm etc. As far as the actual numbers I don’t care if it tests to a bhn of 1 or 2001 I don’t care! As long as that bullet does what I need/expect it to do and I can someone duplicate it when I cast my next batch of bullets that’s perfect for my needs! I think a lot of people make casting bullets a lot harder than it actually is. Man as a species has been casting bullets of one type or another for well over 500 years! Although I wasn’t around back then I’m pretty sure that those folks casting the first boolets didn’t have BHN hardness testers! As a matter of fact I’m pretty sure that none of those folks had PIDs on their campfire lead melting pot, or multiple thermometers to check their temperature of their alloy! I’m pretty sure it went something like this “. Well Fred this stuff in the pot is melted and I can pour it into a mold now I’m pretty sure it’s good to go”! But all this is just my opinion and the way I do things y’all do whatever makes you comfortable!

[TD1886]

What BHN does the pure lead harden to?

It's not that kind of hardening, but you may be able to measure it. Say you have a strip of lead 3/4 inch wide, 1/4 inch thick, and a foot long. If you bend it in the middle back and forth that lead near the bend will harden. I would say the terminology for it would be work hardening. In a sense it's like brass.

[jsizemore]

Hold on. We have a member that says we can harden pure lead. I assume he means we don't have to do it by alloying. I'd like to hear the process. It may be it will harden but not a great amount. The way we express hardness is with "BHN". You may not care but I'd like to know another alternative in case I only have pure lead. I'm here to learn, not to be ignorant of other options.

[longbow]

Antimonial lead alloys most certainly do harden by water dropping or oven heat treating and quenching. They may age harden further but they do harden significantly by quenching when hot out of the mould or oven heat treating to just below melting then quenching.

You are correct that pure lead cannot be heat treated to harden. Pure lead will work harden a small amount.

Longbow

[TD1886]

Hold on. We have a member that says we can harden pure lead. I assume he means we don't have to do it by alloying. I'd like to hear the process. It may be it will harden but not a great amount. The way we express hardness is with "BHN". You may not care but I'd like to know another alternative in case I only have pure lead. I'm here to learn, not to be ignorant of other options.

I just explained it, it work hardens, which is of no use to us.

[Dusty Bannister]

You will probably find that pure lead will work harden, and then age soften again. I believe this was mentioned in a thread or an article about commercial swaged cores for jacketed bullets when the core wire is made or the core is cut and before seating in the jacket.

[Kosh75287]

MY casting skills are somewhat below average, but I tend to always cast from the mould into a bucket of cold water. I do it more as a time-saving maneuver than anything else, but if quenching also hardens the projectiles, I have no objection. None of the alloys I use are so hard an extra half-unit to single unit on the BHN scale will do anything but good things.

[jsizemore]

I just explained it, it work hardens, which is of no use to us.

That's what I was waiting to hear. I was typing my post when you sent yours.

[414gates]

Just to set the record streight, by studies, publications and my own split bullet testing, hard alloys, water dropped out of the mould, add a .004 to .006 depth of hardness to the bullet surface.

For bullet casting and shooting purposes, that few thou of surface layer is not what is generally understood as the BHN of the lead.

BHN cannot be added to a lead alloy by quenching it immediately after casting.

BHN does increase after measuring at cast time, and two weeks later, of a lead alloy.


Hold on. We have a member that says we can harden pure lead. I assume he means we don't have to do it by alloying. I'd like to hear the process. It may be it will harden but not a great amount.

The member who is stating that pure lead can harden may be correct in some abstract scientific sense but for bullet casting, we can't make the practical BHN of pure lead go up by any means, other than alloying it.

[popper]

Load alloy with > 2% Sb WILL get higher BHN with water dropping in COLD (ice) water. As will allow faster hardening. I WD out of the oven when PCing, AFTER 1/2 hr @ 400F. A 10-15 min oven bake will NOT work. 1-2% Sb will eventually harden a bit, not very much, Sn=Sb works better at that low %. WD in ice water works when dropped from the mold, same % rules as above. I size and load a within a couple days after WD, even WD takes a couple days to 'cure' properly.

[Gobeyond]

Start citing your sources. Just sounds like opinions and sounds like an on going difference of opinion.

Take a hydraulic press and see if a WD bullet has anymore resistance, or a hammer. As much as some say they harden there would be a big difference. And do a hardness test. Back up you opinions with evidence. Try a hammer on Lyman #2 there should be a big difference than pure lead or a light alloy. Super hard or foundry type are def. harder. Get your metallurgist and books and articles out here. Be scientific, how do you know they are harder?

[longbow]

Page 18

http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/ClassicWorks/CastBullets-s.pdf


http://www.lasc.us/heattreat.htm


Page 31

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_textonly2.pdf


https://forum.castbulletassoc.org/thread/2782-heat-treating-lead-bullets/


https://thisoldrifle.com/shooting/alloyhardness/pdf/alloyhardness.pdf


315629 315630

[Hannibal]

Start citing your sources. Just sounds like opinions and sounds like an on going difference of opinion.

Take a hydraulic press and see if a WD bullet has anymore resistance, or a hammer. As much as some say they harden there would be a big difference. And do a hardness test. Back up you opinions with evidence. Try a hammer on Lyman #2 there should be a big difference than pure lead or a light alloy. Super hard or foundry type are def. harder. Get your metallurgist and books and articles out here. Be scientific, how do you know they are harder?

Scientific? By striking a bullet with a hammer?

I'll just stop right there.....

How about YOU provide some documentation showing lead alloys can not be hardened by water quenching? And before you start in again with your definition of science, where is smacking a bullet with a hammer considered a scientific test? If you're going to set standards then use established standards.

[Rickf1985]

Actually putting two bullets head to head in a vice will tell you which is the harder bullet. Or putting a chunk of lead in a press with a steel ball on top and measuring the pressure and dent size will give exact comparisons of hardness. That is exactly how hardness is measured with testers.

Hitting with a hammer might be tough to tell since chances of two hammer swings being exactly the same are slim.

[schutzen-jager]

personally used the vise method years ago - bullets cast from same pot, temperature, + mold - multiple times + the water dropped alloy ones very definitely much harder - never tried it with pure lead -

[GONRA]

Like Kos75297 - GONRA always casts into cold water.

[Budzilla 19]

Water drop pistol slugs straight out the mold. Pc, then size and load.
Rifle slugs? Well, it gets a bit more complex. Cast the slugs, Lee 312-155 2r, drop from the mold onto a folded cloth. Size to .310”, install gas check, powdercoat, heat-treat while curing powder coat, 425*f for one hour, then splash in ice water! Re-size to .310”, wait a week, load them to jacketed velocities! Alloy is 50/50 WW/ pure with 2% Sn. Next, 92-6-2 heat treated! I love this stuff!! As always, just my opinions.


Oh, I almost forgot, I don’t own a hardness tester either.

[Hannibal]

A hardness tester will give you a reference point if you're interested in such things. Seems kinda ridiculous to me to get picky about diameter, case prep, powder charge, lubes, powder coat techniques and seating depth yet have no idea about the hardness of the alloy you're using but to each his own.

And no, I don't like variations of a smash test. Doesn't tell you anything that you didn't already anticipate.

[Budzilla 19]

Well, seems I forgot some information in my last post! Hannibal, thank you for jogging my memory. When I said I didn’t own a hardiness tester, I guess I should have also mentioned that a good friend DOES own a hardness tester and tested the alloy in question. ( I cant recall the exact number right now, it’s written down in the casting book in the shop). After much reading on this wonderful site, I guess I just “ stumbled”upon this combination of alloy,and it works wonderful!
So, sorry for the omission of information.
Be safe out there.

[fredj338]

If you PC, you destroy any gain of water dropping out of the mold.

[Budzilla 19]

fredj338, I agree that when you pc, you lose any gain in hardness you may have gained from water drop.

[Kosh75287]

I don't agree with the statement that water-quenching does NOT increase their hardness. This may be true of pure lead, or perhaps even nearly pure lead alloys (1:40 tin:lead?), but it is not true of Lyman #2 or "Hardball" alloys. I've tested this myself, and not with a reloader's hardness tester, but with a full-size industrial-standard Brinnell Hardness tester.
I'm not sure of the minimum wt./wt.% of antimony is necessary to "heat treat" projectiles, but 0.25% arsenic seems to be enough. Depending on the process involved, 0.5% is sometimes used. Whether arsenic in an alloy that is free of antimony will heat treat is unclear to me, but on a guess, I suspect it would work.

[Ed_Shot]

Load alloy with > 2% Sb WILL get higher BHN with water dropping in COLD (ice) water. As will allow faster hardening. I WD out of the oven when PCing, AFTER 1/2 hr @ 400F. A 10-15 min oven bake will NOT work. 1-2% Sb will eventually harden a bit, not very much, Sn=Sb works better at that low %. WD in ice water works when dropped from the mold, same % rules as above. I size and load a within a couple days after WD, even WD takes a couple days to 'cure' properly.

Totally agree with POPPER. Here is an excellent thread on water quenching and boolit hardness. Watch the video.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?453167-PC-Questions

[GONRA]

GONRA "water quenches" all water cast boolits. Just for the hell of it.....
RANGE LEAD.
short L/D Lyman /Lee "Pistol Boolits"
Lubed with pure ALOX 2138F purchased decade ago.
Lyman Lube Sizer......
Verks Just Fine for me...........

[Winger Ed.]

GONRA "water quenches" all cast boolits. Just for the hell of it..... ...

That's pretty much where I'm at.:bigsmyl2:

I'm also wondering when this powder coating fad will go away like moly coating everything did and
the big need to have your barrels cryo-treated.

[Hannibal]

All joking aside, if you do water quench make sure they are completely dry before storing them. Otherwise you'll wind up with 'fuzzy' boolits that are potentially hazardous to handle.

Learned this the hard way.

[fredj338]

That's pretty much where I'm at.:bigsmyl2:

I'm also wondering when this powder coating fad will go away like moly coating everything did and
the big need to have your barrels cryo-treated.

I was slow to PC but I think its here to stay. Unlike moly, it doesnt deposit in the bore. So ne downside to using it. My guns shoot waaay cleaner with PC vs lubed.

[fredj338]

fredj338, I agree that when you pc, you lose any gain in hardness you may have gained from water drop.

If I want a harder bullet, I will water drop out of the PC oven. Works great & bullets can be handled immediately.

[oley55]

If I want a harder bullet, I will water drop out of the PC oven. Works great & bullets can be handled immediately.

I am/was under the impression heat treating bullets require 450-460 degrees for 45-60 minutes. I wonder if our normal PC temp/cook times are adequate. How to you check the hardness of the alloy under the PC?

[facetious]

https://www.nzha.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/CastBullets-s.pdf

Go to page #117

More here to answer your questions.

[Maven]

All, You may want to research (Google) Dennis Marshall's articles on water quenching/dropping that appeared in various publications, e.g., for Lyman, RCBS, the NRA. Said articles tell you how to do it and what hardness you'll get with a given alloy.

[Walstr]

I'm not a chemist, but I'd heard more than a few times there has to be a certain amount of Antimony, Arsenic, or maybe both
for them to harden/temper at all.

Quite true. My COWW + additional 2% tin produces a 'water quenched hardness' that 'age hardens' in a month. Smack with a 16oz hammer and it barely moves. Too hard for hunting Wisconsin, so I'm going to experiment with 'tempering' the nose, to permit some expansion.

[wch]

Yup, that's the way to do it.

[poppy42]

One of my very good friends is a metallurgist and pure lead can be harden. I'm not going through the process, just believe me. He's something to ponder. Back in the wooden spear day after man shaped the point they hardened it in a flame. Yeah yeah I know it's not metal.

Well Sir,
I am certainly not questioning yours or your friends knowledge or sincerity! With that being said I really really hate secondhand information! You know, my friend herd …, or I knew this guy that told me… or my uncles first wife once had a boyfriend that knew a guy…. Do you understand what I’m saying? I would be more inclined to take what your saying as fact if you were the metallurgist! Or if it was your friend that was posting! Now I can tell you, that it’s been my personal experience, that water quenching pure lead does not facilitate any additional hardening of that soft lead! On the other hand, water quenching, an alloy that contains Antimony, amongst other things like arsenic, dose induce additional hardening of that alloy. And that alloy will continue to harden over a period of time! Up to a point! It doesn’t continue to get harder and harder and harder forever!
I make these statements based on my own personal firsthand experience!
Sorry but I don’t have any friends. I don’t know any metallurgist. Now I do have nephews, but none of them knows a metallurgist either. So you can assume that my post is coming straight from the horses mouth! (or possibly the other end of the horse. That’s completely up to you!).
Thank you so much,
Poppy42

[243winxb]

Google it. :D https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/make-cast-bullets-harder-oven-heat-treating.4774/full

[Dancing Bear]

I water quench just to cool the bullets down quickly.

[Walstr]

Years ago, everybody cast, and dropped 'em on a towel.
Then, you had to heat treat everything. You'd put a boolit in an oven and keep raising the temp. until it 'slumped'.
Back the temp. off some, run your boolits in the oven awhile, and then dump them in cold water.

Pretty soon, some folks started dropping them out of the mold into cold water to get the tempering.
I still drop into cold water as it's just fast and handy for me.

Greetings Pard; Not to put too fine a point on it, but the newbies should be aware that "tempering" is a POST quench, heat treating process to relieve internal stresses from casting/forging process. I feel you meant to say "...to get them quenched."

[fredj338]

That's pretty much where I'm at.:bigsmyl2:

I'm also wondering when this powder coating fad will go away like moly coating everything did and
the big need to have your barrels cryo-treated.

The diff for me is moly coated the bore & thne you were pretty much stuck shooting moly coated. PC does NOT leave anything in the bore that I can find. So beats messy, smoky lubes for pistols. I dont shoot much cast in rifles but 45-70.

[fredj338]

I am/was under the impression heat treating bullets require 450-460 degrees for 45-60 minutes. I wonder if our normal PC temp/cook times are adequate. How to you check the hardness of the alloy under the PC?

I have tested them a week after water quenching out of the 400deg oven, they get about 3-4bhn bump. I file the nose of the bullet flat for testing.

[Froogal]

I water quench just to cool the bullets down quickly.

BINGO!! That is why I do it. I can then handle them easily at the end of a casting session.

[michael.birdsley]

will sizing the boolit negate the effects of water quenching? my understanding ( i’m not a metallurgist but, delt with heat treating parts some in machining of auto parts) is that quenching would help with hardening the surface of the boolit ? so if we take off any where from .001-.003 in the sizing process it would take the surface harden part off. or am I off base ?


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[gwpercle]

When I'm casting ... water is the last thing I want around ...
Dropping the hot boolits onto a folded towel works just fine for me .

Water quenched boolits are harder to size and as soon as you size them , you cold work the leads surface and soften them back up .

I don't powder coat so that's not an issue .
Gary

[gwpercle]

will sizing the boolit negate the effects of water quenching? my understanding ( i’m not a metallurgist but, delt with heat treating parts some in machining of auto parts) is that quenching would help with hardening the surface of the boolit ? so if we take off any where from .001-.003 in the sizing process it would take the surface harden part off. or am I off base ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think you are right on base ... and I agree with you :drinks:
Gary:popcorn:

[kevin c]

I kinda thought sizing moved metal around but thought it more of a squeezing and shifting and not so much a scraping. Wouldn’t you lose the powder coat and HiTek coatings and leave bare metal if there was scraping? Is it possible that the surface hardening would basically stay in place with sizing instead causing a volume shift into the non bearing surface parts of the slug?

[michael.birdsley]

I kinda thought sizing moved metal around but thought it more of a squeezing and shifting and not so much a scraping. Wouldn’t you lose the powder coat and HiTek coatings and leave bare metal if there was scraping? Is it possible that the surface hardening would basically stay in place with sizing instead causing a volume shift into the non bearing surface parts of the slug?

scrapping or cutting your still removing material from the surface. you can’t just move material on a solid object it has to be removed. to the removing quenched surface area. some maybe left depending on how much you are removing. if your only removing .001 per side there is a possibility that a lot of the water quenched area will remain. the more you take off in sizing the less and less of the quenched surface will remain in the sized area.


so this s complicated answer to powder sizing powder coated bullets. any metallic surface is not 100% flat there are peaks and valleys in the surface grain structure of what ever metal you are using. there is enough built in tolerance in the bullet and the sizer to not take the powder coat to bare metal. powder coat particles and layers are very very thin.

a mic and sizer kinda work the same way. they are are only picking up the high spots on any given diameter. let’s take a .450 sized bullet. that bullet in any given area that you are measuring is not a constant .450 diameter. the mic is picking up the peak to peak diameter 180 degrees from each other. we’re talking +-.00001-.0001 and could be more variance in surface profile.

a sizer being used to size down powder coat is only taking powder coat off the peaks if it’s taking any thing at all due to the built in +- tolerance on the sizer. meaning the sizer could be +- .0004inch and still be a .450 sizer. bigger or smaller by +- .0005 and the bullet still read .450 on a .000 mic

if your sizer is at the upper end of the +-.0005 tolerance or your bullet is under sized by .0005 and you just drench the bullet with 003-.004 of powder coat the sizer would take off .0025-.0035 of powder still leaving a layer of .0005-.001 of powder coat on the bullet which, is plenty enough.

bullet casters generally only need to go .000. i’m sure powder coat particle are way less than .001 micron in size. between powder coat particles being very tiny and with tolerance built into the sizing die there is enough powder coat left after sizing to .450 to not be scrapping down to bare lead in most instances. the high and low spots could be deviating +- .0004 inches and your .000 mic would never pick it and you wouldn’t ever notice it. on the low end in the valley’s your sizer wouldn’t touch the lead or the paint.


if you heat to powder coat. re-heating will suck the quench out of the bullet. however, powder coat after curing is fairly hard stuff and i’d probably be harder than the bullet surface.

sizing would cut the hardened surface from age Hardening off of the bullet. after sizing though it would re age harden given time.

we would induction heat treat axles at like 2000-2500F and quench them and hopefully get any where from 1/16-1/4 inch heat treat depth. most of our stuff was i think 49-65 bhn

probably not the most concise answer

of edited this probably atleast 5 times


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[Froogal]

will sizing the boolit negate the effects of water quenching? my understanding ( i’m not a metallurgist but, delt with heat treating parts some in machining of auto parts) is that quenching would help with hardening the surface of the boolit ? so if we take off any where from .001-.003 in the sizing process it would take the surface harden part off. or am I off base ?


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I've never encountered any issues when sizing and lubing my water quenched boolits.

[Dusty Bannister]

The heat treated hardness of lead alloys is not the same as working with ferrous metals. Heating and quenching the lead alloy (lead/antimony/tin) results in a grain formation throughout the cast bullet. If it was a surface hardening, like case hardening, the indent hardness tester would not work. The instructions with the LBT hardness tester tell the operator to file the base flat to remove high spots. If it is a RN bullet, file a large flat on the nose large enough to prevent the alloy moving sideways instead of making the indenter point actually penetrate into the inner part of the bullet.

If the Heat Treating of these cast bullets were only a surface "skin" the indenter would pass through the surface and then drop like poking a pin through an egg shell. Heating and quenching produces a hard and tough bullet not just a thin layer of harder material.