Can a Highwall be chambered in .50-70?

[namsag]

I'm not very good at searching, but I cannot find record of such. It seems like it would be a neat rifle. Is there a reason it can't be done?

Would love to know what you know about it!

Thanks, namsag

[HARLOWPARKENFARKER]

Probably not. The problem would be the thin portion of the chamber ahead of the breech. The threads cut into the barrel would leave a very thin chamber wall.

[john.k]

Isnt there a 20g shotgun variation of the 1885?

[marlinman93]

Of course they can be chambered in .50-70 Govt.!
When Winchester first offered the 1885 one of the factory chamberings was .50-90 Sharps, which has very similar base and rim diameter to the Govt. .50 cartridge. Of course there were two barrel thread shanks, and any in a .50 would be the large shank like all other larger cartridges used. Only the very small cartridges used the smaller shank size.

[Nobade]

And if you don't mind a foreign import, Browning and I believe later Winchester chambered the Miroku made 1885s in 50-90 also.

[namsag]

I have a Pedersoli in .45-70. I was thinking in terms of maybe having it changed over, the barrel walls certainly seem thick enough, but I don't know about the barrel threads, perhaps a whole new barrel would be necessary.

[GregLaROCHE]

I have a Pedersoli in .45-70. I was thinking in terms of maybe having it changed over, the barrel walls certainly seem thick enough, but I don't know about the barrel threads, perhaps a whole new barrel would be necessary.

You could try contacting Pedersoli and see what they think.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

The recent Winchester 1885(japan) has been available in .325 WSM. Should be strong enough for most .50's, The .325 has a .555 case head diameter like the .348, like the .50-110 Win. Older 1885's - it depends.

[marlinman93]

I have a Pedersoli in .45-70. I was thinking in terms of maybe having it changed over, the barrel walls certainly seem thick enough, but I don't know about the barrel threads, perhaps a whole new barrel would be necessary.

No idea what thread diameter or shank diameter Pedersoli uses, but you should be able to look at the chamber end and measure fairly close by what the shank OD measures there. Or talk to whoever you plan to use to bore, rifle, and chamber it to .50 and see what they say. I'm betting it's just a close metric size to what Winchester used.

[Harleysboss]

Give Jes rebore in Oregon a call. I'm sure he could tell you and do the work. His website might even tell you what you need to know.

[muskeg13]

I'm following this closely, since I have a .405 Highwall clone that I'm considering having rebored to .50-70. A year or so ago I mentioned this in passing when talking with JES concerning another project I was having him do, and he suggested going with .50 Alaskan.

[1Hawkeye]

I remember a few years back I asked Jessie about a highwall in .50-70 he said it was possible but sometimes they have extraction issues.
I don't remember the whole conversation but aquick call to Jessie will answer your question. Jes is a great guy to talk to and will be glad to help you with your rifle.

[Don McDowell]

The highwall could be rebarreled and chambered to 50-70, won't be an inexpensive project, and get the brass on hand before you start the project.

[Rockindaddy]

I have rebarreled 3 original Sharps to 50-70. They work great! Might be easier to find a shot out 50-70 Sharps conversion and put a new barrel on it. Bambi doesn't stand much of a chance with 50-70. The 450gr bullets usually break both shoulders and put a big hole in the lungs. They don't go but 20~50 yards if at all and fall over. Have been experimenting with 300 and 325 gr bullets. Accuracy is great and the shoulder takes a bit less kick. Using an original receiver allows me to restore the Sharps address too. Old die maker! I reroll the markings as the originals.

[marlinman93]

I have rebarreled 3 original Sharps to 50-70. They work great! Might be easier to find a shot out 50-70 Sharps conversion and put a new barrel on it. Bambi doesn't stand much of a chance with 50-70. The 450gr bullets usually break both shoulders and put a big hole in the lungs. They don't go but 20~50 yards if at all and fall over. Have been experimenting with 300 and 325 gr bullets. Accuracy is great and the shoulder takes a bit less kick. Using an original receiver allows me to restore the Sharps address too. Old die maker! I reroll the markings as the originals.

A Sharps has a 1.127" thread size shank, where a Winchester High Wall in a large shank has a .935" thread size shank. Can't compare the two although both are plenty large enough for the .565" base diameter of a .50-70 cartridge.

[John Taylor]

The 50-70 is a low pressure cartridge. The high wall was used to test many cartridges including a standard chamber of 30-06 . I installed a 20 gauge barrel on one several years back with no problems. It is rumored that there were a few made in 70-150 which would have had to have the threads in the receiver made larger.

[Chill Wills]

I would think you might need a multi-man gun crew to shoot a 70-150. Or, at least I might.:kidding:

[Nobade]

The original 12GA FH...

[Bigslug]

As I recall, there's an early - probably Browning Brothers, not Winchester - High Wall chambered in .50-100 in the Browning museum in Ogden. It inspired much lust.

[GregLaROCHE]

50-110 was first introduced by Winchester in 1899.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50-110_Winchester

[marlinman93]

When Winchester introduced their .50-140 cartridge it was for the Sharps Rifle Co. in 1880. But it was also chambered in some 1885 Winchester High Walls on a custom basis. Not sure the factory ever offered it as a factory chambering, although the 1885 is capable of fitting it, and strong enough for it.

[Chill Wills]

I don't have the 50-140 listed as ever being a Sharps cartridge. Maybe just Winchester???

[marlinman93]

I don't have the 50-140 listed as ever being a Sharps cartridge. Maybe just Winchester???

The .50-140 was originally called the .50-3 1/4 Sharps, and also at the same time in a Winchester it was called the .50-140 Winchester Express. Loaded with a 473 gr. bullet by Winchester when it came out in 1880.
I've never seen a Sharps rifle chambered in the .50-3 1/4, but it was designated as a Sharps cartridge. Likely not chambered because Sharps stopped production of the Model 1874, and later models couldn't handle the length. And of course Sharps went belly up not long after. It was listed as a "special order cartridge" for Sharps though.
My Freund Sharps is a .50-140, but originally left Sharps as a .45-70, so mine is not a factory chambered .50-140.

[Old-Win]

According to the Winchester Collectors website, these are the number of 1885's built for the various 50 cals.
50 - 3 1/4 -2
50 - 100 Express -2
50 - 90 Sharps -3
577 - Ely -10
50 - Ely -512
No mention of a 50-140. Could this have been more writers hype or advertising by a company but never got it off the ground? 1885's and 86's came considerably later than the cartridge introduction so what rifle was it chambered for? The 74's, 77's and Borchardts should have been able to handle it but Sharps was done with 74's and 77's by May of 1880. A cartridge idea that didn't take off??

[swamp]

The 50-3.25 is the 50-140. I have a rolling block repro in this caliber.
swamp

[marlinman93]

According to the Winchester Collectors website, these are the number of 1885's built for the various 50 cals.
50 - 3 1/4 -2
50 - 100 Express -2
50 - 90 Sharps -3
577 - Ely -10
50 - Ely -512
No mention of a 50-140. Could this have been more writers hype or advertising by a company but never got it off the ground? 1885's and 86's came considerably later than the cartridge introduction so what rifle was it chambered for? The 74's, 77's and Borchardts should have been able to handle it but Sharps was done with 74's and 77's by May of 1880. A cartridge idea that didn't take off??


The .50-140 is the .50-3.25" and later than the 1885, or the Sharps 1874, since it arrived in 1880. But no reason a cartridge couldn't be later than a rifle's first introduction, as long as it's still during the time frame the rifles were made.
I don't believe the .50-140 or 3.25" were ever factory Sharps offerings, since the cartridge came out about the time Sharps was headed into extinction. But I don't know without asking Labowskie if the cartridge ever was a Sharps chambering or not.

[swamp]

According to COW, the 2.25 is the 50-70. I don't believe you can get 140 gr. of powder in a 2025 length case.

[Old-Win]

I found this while searching today and it may be as close as we'll get to a Sharps in 50-140 although not done by the factory.
https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/sharps-rifles---antique/exceptional-sharps-model-1874---50-140-3-1-4-quot--montana-buffalo-rifle.cfm?gun_id=101287707
Provenance seems pretty good. Sure doesn't seem economical for Winchester to make that cartridge but only chambering two rifles for it. Why they called it a Sharps is a curiosity as Sharps Rifle Co could have made the cartridge if they still had the resources at that time. I can't imagine that many western gunsmiths ordered or made reamers for this. It has to be like some of those obscure cartridges like the .45-85 Walcott or the .45-2.6" Brown. Cartridges exist but nobody has ever seen a rifle for it. Something is lost to history here.

[marlinman93]

A lot of what's contained in the sale on Guns International is speculation on the seller's part. Could it be accurate? Maybe, but really no way to know for sure without some provenance, and he provides none that confirms his supposition as to when it got reworked to the .50-140 cartridge chambering.
My Freund Sharps is also a .50-140, but shows it left Sharps in Feb. 1880 as a .45-70 rifle. Sometime along the way it got Freund Improvements, and at sometime it became a .50-140, but no way to know when.

[marlinman93]

According to COW, the 2.25 is the 50-70. I don't believe you can get 140 gr. of powder in a 2025 length case.

That was a typo on my part. Corrected it to the 3.25" case we're talking about. Kinda like the "2025" typo huh?

[swamp]

Thought that might be the case. I need to proof read a bit closer.
swamp

[Don McDowell]

There is no documentation anywhere that shows Sharps ever factory chambered any of the 3 1/4 cartridges.

[MOA]

I had my Husqvarna rolling block chambered in 12.7x44R rechambered to 50-90 Sharps straight. Being the 50-70 Sharps cartridge is almost identical except for the length,and if you're using black powder loads I would not think there would be a problem.

https://i.postimg.cc/L4zLNsf1/IMG_20230310_134354080_HDR.jpg (https://postimg.cc/4nxY3sWf)

https://i.postimg.cc/gcZQfWGR/IMG-20230613-161347950.jpg (https://postimg.cc/pyPsF3hX)

https://i.postimg.cc/rsxHWSfg/IMG-20230613-161303661.jpg (https://postimg.cc/YL28BmKm)

[marlinman93]

There is no documentation anywhere that shows Sharps ever factory chambered any of the 3 1/4 cartridges.

That's correct, Sharps was in financial troubles when this cartridge was introduced by Winchester, and doubt they wanted to offer anything that wasn't a proven seller already. Any Sharps in this cartridge would be a rebore, or rebarrel, and likely not done at Sharps, even at a later date.

[marlinman93]

A note here about the .50-140 or 3.25" cartridge. It was almost identical to the existing .50-90 Sharps cartridge, except for .05" length difference. The .50-90 Sharps is listed at a 3.20" long case, and was introduced 8 yrs. earlier, when the buffalo were still plentiful, and it could be used by hunters.
Cartridges of the World also shows the same length for the .50-100 and .50-110 Sharps cartridges, so I'm guessing there was some sort of thick wad used to make the long case work with all three versions of the Sharps cartridge? All of these in factory loadings used lighter weight bullets in the 473 gr. range, or lighter.

[Don McDowell]

Not sure where you're digging up the info, but the 50-90 or big Sharps 50 was/is a 2.5 inch case. Sharps did offer the 50-70 commonly known as the 50 government, and for a very short while did offer their own 50x 2 inch. Seller's Sharps book documents the ammo and offered by Sharps pretty well, and the recent Sharps Rifle Books by Marcot do as well. But what is really interesting is when they dug into the numbers Sharps produced only a little over 700 of 50 caliber anything in the 74 models. They did do a ton of rebarrel/ relining the 63 carbines to 50-70.
But none the less a Highwall can be easily rebarreled and chambered to any of the 50 caliber blackpowder cartridges, with a new or modified extractor.

[marlinman93]

Not sure where you're digging up the info, but the 50-90 or big Sharps 50 was/is a 2.5 inch case. Sharps did offer the 50-70 commonly known as the 50 government, and for a very short while did offer their own 50x 2 inch. Seller's Sharps book documents the ammo and offered by Sharps pretty well, and the recent Sharps Rifle Books by Marcot do as well. But what is really interesting is when they dug into the numbers Sharps produced only a little over 700 of 50 caliber anything in the 74 models. They did do a ton of rebarrel/ relining the 63 carbines to 50-70.
But none the less a Highwall can be easily rebarreled and chambered to any of the 50 caliber blackpowder cartridges, with a new or modified extractor.

Got the info from Cartridges of the World, which is always suspect, so no surprise it could be wrong.

[Don McDowell]

The later versions of COW post 1980's have some glaring mistakes in them to be sure.

[Old-Win]

Yes, I know that the 50-3 1/4" is also referred to as the 50-140 Sharps. My point was that there is no reference by Winchester that I am aware of that they ever called it the 50-140 Sharps, so where did that come from. According to Bert Hartman, both highwalls were manufactured in 1894 at the same time and recorded as 50-3 1/4". I have now found from different sources that the so called 50-140 Sharps was introduced in 1880 as special order, another source says 1882 and still another says 1884. When writing books about cartridges diverse in kind and number, there's bound to be mistakes. Winchester did make thirty 45-3 1/4" highwalls and marked them with the Sharps name. I'd still like to see reference to an advertisement or catalog from Sharps or Winchester where they referred to the 50-140.

[namsag]

@MOA - NICE who rechambered your Husqvarna 12.7?

[MOA]

@MOA - NICE who rechambered your Husqvarna 12.7?

Borchardt rifle barrel in Silver City New Mexico. Al Story an Clay. Clay did my rechambering.

[marlinman93]

Considering how rare this big .50 is as an original chambering I'd guess it's going to be impossible to find a rifle example to see how it's marked, and any old ammo boxes to see how they are marked?
I do have brass for mine that is marked both ".50-140" and some marked ".50-3.25" on the head stamp, but it's all newer brass, not period brass. Some is Bell brass, some Jameison, and some Bertram. And my RCBS and C&H4D die sets are both marked .50-140 on the boxes.
So who is right or wrong, or when it got this .50-140 designation, I don't know. But it seems to be pretty commonly used.

[marlinman93]

Got an email back from Bert Hartman, who told me he's never seen either of the two 1885's sold in the largest .50 caliber. He said the records show them marked as ".50 SHARPS 3 1/4" with the "1/4" being marked with "1" above the "4", not like my computer does it above.
He added he's never seen any original Winchester ammunition or boxes to discern how they were marked.

[Old-Win]

You should probably reread your email.

[Don McDowell]

Interesting that the 1878 Winchester catalog lists the50-70 and 50-90 as an available factory loads, but the 1916 catalog only shows the 50-70.

[Rick B]

Wikipedia article is wrong. Winchester introduced the 50-110 in 1887, the second year of production. Rifle caliber markings on the barrel were 50 Ex. 50 Ex (50-110 WCF) loadings drove a 300 grain bullet express bullet in excess of 2000 fps. This cartridge was dropped by Winchester in 1919.
Rick

[Green Frog]

Just to add a bit to the arguments, Winchester made the high wall in 20 gauge shotgun chamberings, which are roughly equivalent to 64 caliber, so the black powder versions of 50-70 or even longer cases should be no problem to use in the high wall. Modern, higher pressure 50 calibers are a whole different story.
Froggie