Cutoff for the rapture.

[Gobeyond]

Who’s going in the rapture? Who even believes in the rapture? Is God going to be merciful and take all his church. Or only take the obedient. I think only only a few may go. The rapture is a pretty special blessing. The first century church, who were better than us and more good many had to die violent deaths. Has God made provision for that by getting us only beheaded?

The wrath is coming. But who will God take first in the rapture?

[GhostHawk]

I think a lot of church going people who consider themselves Christians are going to hear "I knew you not" when they stand in front of the Lord.

Those church's put on the Sunday show, but where does the money go? Does it go to help the sick, the needy, those in prison? Or is it spent on big fancy buildings, big salary's and such?

If you are not feeding his sheep, tending his flock. How can you call yourself a Christian?

This country is in real trouble until a majority turn back to the Lord. Go down on their knees and repent. And I don't see much sign of it happening.

I know there are good people out there. I keep finding them here for sure. And I know I am far from perfect. I should be doing a better job than I am of spreading the good news.

[Teddy (punchie)]

God will bring you back if your one of his children. If you are still here (alive) he will call you.

I showed an old Minster the cows. I said Just lets say You call my cows what will happen? Do they know you? Let me call them and you watch. With in a few minutes there were 20 large BUMs wanting some grain and more coming. But as soon as I call they answer, they know me. They are My big kids.

I told most of the leaders at our old church if Jesus was here you'll call him a bum, homeless, without a job etc. so I caution everyone be very wise and not so fast to judge.

[Good Cheer]

"God will bring you back if your one of his children. If you are still here (alive) he will call you."

Sums it up right there.

[Gobeyond]

No one sitting on the fence might not get to go. But it sounds like, by the response that you are not sure there will be a rapture.

It seems you have no opinion on whether who is good enough to be taken up, snatched up. As I said a very special blessing.

[dannyd]

People may want to catch up on their reading. This book is 100 years old, but the Data still applies today.

315215


I would also recommend this book too.

315216

[Good Cheer]

No one sitting on the fence might not get to go. But it sounds like, by the response that you are not sure there will be a rapture.

It seems you have no opinion on whether who is good enough to be taken up, snatched up. As I said a very special blessing.

Hi Gobeyond.
I understand that Jesus Christ is coming back when the two witnesses are murdered, it makes the people of the world rejoice with gift giving... and with the current service life of many years* my meat suit is just not very likely to continue that long.

*Not to mention the coming persecutions, war, economic upheavals, famines, pestilences.

[1hole]

No one is now or has ever been "good enough" to deserve Jesus' blood bought and feely offered gift of salvation. It's called the gospel (aka the "good news"), meaning God's salvation is only offered by his unearned, undeserved grace through our faith, not our works (Eph 2:8-9).

Salvation cannot be a self righteous payoff earned by good people hoping to live "good enough" to be saved (John 3:17). That idea is not Christian. It's wrongly taught by many deluded folk but it's not at all the gospel of God and we're told it will lead hard working self-righteous folk straight to hell.

[ACC]

Who’s going in the rapture? Who even believes in the rapture? Is God going to be merciful and take all his church. Or only take the obedient. I think only only a few may go. The rapture is a pretty special blessing. The first century church, who were better than us and more good many had to die violent deaths. Has God made provision for that by getting us only beheaded?

The wrath is coming. But who will God take first in the rapture?

I had a friend once who said just belonging to a curtain church guaranteed that you would be raptured. This is BALONEY to the maximum. From what I read in God's word in Thessalonians and Revelations only the believers will be raptured. If anyone knows different let me know.

This friend also believed that be a member of this church you would no longer sin.

ACC

[gc45]

Read it for yourself. DO NOT listen to all these churches who, by their leaders spout dishonest statements, made up stuff to bring in their flock and fleece them of their money. The King James is all we need along with those easy to read versions that DO NOT distort God's word.

1 Thessalonians 4
King James Version
4 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
10 And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;
11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;
12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

[1hole]

Who’s going in the rapture? Who even believes in the rapture? Is God going to be merciful and take all his church. Or only take the obedient. I think only only a few may go. The rapture is a pretty special blessing. The first century church, who were better than us and more good many had to die violent deaths. Has God made provision for that by getting us only beheaded?

The wrath is coming. But who will God take first in the rapture?

Good questions. And the Rapture itself will indeed be quite special.

At the right time, "dead" believers will be called and resurrected first. Then living believers - the church - will be caught up, meaning both groups will be raptured and translated into their immortal bodies in the blink of an eye. The combined groups will ascend to heaven with Jesus (to his Father's house) for the 7 years of earthly Tribulation and heavenly preparation for the wedding supper of the Lord and his Bride."

At the end of the Great Tribulation, we resurrected saints of God will return to earth with Lord Jesus as one body of believers, all of us riding white horses. Then Jesus' peaceful 1,000 year Kingdom on earth will begin. (Isa 2:4, 42:1 and Rev 19:11-21, 20:7)

NOTE: ONLY lying religious cult leaders have the audacity to claim a special place in God's heart.

Being a Christian is somewhat like being pregnant. Both conditions are binary; no one can be a little bit Christian nor can anyone be a little bit pregnant. Not all believers live right but all believers are Christian and go to heaven; non-believers go to hell.

[ioon44]

Who’s going in the rapture? Who even believes in the rapture? Is God going to be merciful and take all his church. Or only take the obedient. I think only only a few may go. The rapture is a pretty special blessing. The first century church, who were better than us and more good many had to die violent deaths. Has God made provision for that by getting us only beheaded?

The wrath is coming. But who will God take first in the rapture?






Matthew 7:14

11If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
12Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

[Gobeyond]

Yes the rapture is not for everyone. Did you ever try to imagine that if you are doing all you can, if God has his standards what are they. Some say all believers, some say the right church, some say no rapture at all. All want to go if there is going to be an escape. Good time to get purified. Good time to make that extra effort. Who can find a faithful man! Proverbs 20. Don’t be over confident.

[Alabama358]

Who’s going in the rapture? Who even believes in the rapture? Is God going to be merciful and take all his church. Or only take the obedient. I think only only a few may go. The rapture is a pretty special blessing. The first century church, who were better than us and more good many had to die violent deaths. Has God made provision for that by getting us only beheaded?

The wrath is coming. But who will God take first in the rapture?

First and foremost...

You DO NOT get raptured as a condition of your goodness or good works.

You DO get raptured because of what Christ did at the cross.
It is a gift.

Rapture = Saved

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Have Faith in the Death, Burial and Resurrection of the LORD Jesus Christ and you will be called up with all the other Saints. That is it, nothing more nothing less.
Good works pleases God and he even rewards good works, but that has nothing to do with salvation.
It is that simple

And... Once you are Saved you cant blow it and lose your salvation.

[Alabama358]

As Far as the particulars regarding the rapture...
The Church, The Elect, Christ's apostles (The first church members) had similar questions and the Lord gave them the end times playbook.
He even tells them that they will know when it is at the door, verse 33 (Not the day or the hour but at the door)
Not this total surprise nonsense doctrine of men.

I took the liberty of highlighting some of the standout verses


Matthew 24: 1-36
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

[Good Cheer]

Take heed that no man deceive you.
Now learn a parable of the fig tree.

[Gobeyond]

I’m just trying to say that a certain bit of holiness is necessary, going to church twice a week. Works are the fruit of live faith. Tithing of Christians would make this world a very different place, with most of the worlds problems being solved. We should not be ruled by our flesh. Jesus is the answer to all our problems and life’s issues. You know the basics, not excuses or a bad attitude.
This seems necessary for being raptured. Look at missionaries, workers in foreign countries, pastors who know the word and live it. And those who are full of good works. This sets the bar a little higher. What do you think if only a few go? I’m not saying this is it. But we all have room for improvement.

[.429&H110]

"Tithing would make this world a different place"

Tithing does make this world a different place.

We support a mission to Ukraine and Israel
but we haven't heard from the church builders in San Francisco this year,
tough town, nice young couple, they are on the prayer list.
Frisco has not heard the Word yet.
They will. Nineveh by the bay needs Jonah...

Matthew 24 "...and then the Lord shall come."

[Alabama358]

I’m just trying to say that a certain bit of holiness is necessary, going to church twice a week. Works are the fruit of live faith. Tithing of Christians would make this world a very different place, with most of the worlds problems being solved. We should not be ruled by our flesh. Jesus is the answer to all our problems and life’s issues. You know the basics, not excuses or a bad attitude.
This seems necessary for being raptured. Look at missionaries, workers in foreign countries, pastors who know the word and live it. And those who are full of good works. This sets the bar a little higher. What do you think if only a few go? I’m not saying this is it. But we all have room for improvement.

Church attendance, Tithing, Mission work etc. etc. although very honorable has NOTHING to do with Salvation and or being raptured.

Take for example the thief hanging on the cross next to Jesus... All he did was believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and he was saved.
Furthermore he will be raptured right along side the best Saints that have ever lived when the Lord returns.
He did no good works, attended no church service, did no tithing... in fact he was a thief. So how is it that he was saved and will be raptured...
He believed on The Lord Jesus Christ... full stop... that's it

Luke 23:42-43
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Good works does not create good Christians
Good Christians create good works

[1hole]

Church attendance, Tithing, Mission work etc. etc. although very honorable has NOTHING to do with Salvation and or being raptured.

Roger that! (See Eph 2:8, 9)

[Gobeyond]

Does God command us to tithe and not love our money? Is it an opportunity to be a good Christian. If all Christians tithed there would be no poor, no cancer. There would be money enough for everything the world needs. Aren’t we responsible for the kingdom being delayed to come to earth. We are responsible for the earth being so wanting now.

How many of us could not be considered to be sitting on the fence somehow. Maybe the rapture is for full on Christians that don’t fall short that much. The cream of the crop. I want to go but probably don’t deserve it. If God has to ask if we love Him, then why wouldn’t he allow us to die to prove it. Who really loves him with all their heart, mind, soul and strength. Some do, so we all can.

The first century Christian had to die. Why are we better? @Alabama358.

[Handloader109]

If you Believe that Jesus Died on the Cross to Save us poor souls from eternal damnation, you will be raptured. Works are nothing.

[Alabama358]

The first century Christian had to die. Why are we better? @Alabama358.

Gobe,

No... we are not better or worse the the first Century Christians

In fact, Christ talks about Christians in the End Times being killed during the earlier part of the 7 Year Tribulation in Matthew 24.

So if we are truely in the End Times... Stand by, you might have an opportunity to die as the 1st century Saints did.

Matthew 24:9
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Also

Revelation 6: 9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Just a point of fact... verse 10 proves that even up until the 5th seal is broken, GOD has not starting pouring out his wrath.
So the folks that say the whole 7 Year Tribulation period is GOD's wrath haven't considered Revelation 6 and the Saints bellyaching to GOD about when is he going to start pouring out his wrath to avenge them.


Gobe... Not Sure if I answered your question

[farmbif]

again, as in how merciful god is. won't know till you get there. to me it makes no sense to worry about such things. if you fill your life with good works and deeds you will probably be too busy to spend time worrying about such issues.

[Gobeyond]

Yeah @alabama you answered it pretty well. I can see the first four seals were the first 3 1/2 years. Never understood that before. I’m a pre trib ear. Where is God going to draw the line on who can go. I’m not worried or obsessed. We can’t be perfect, just growing I guess. I want to be ready. When you get right to the judgment not all are going to agree with Him.

[Alabama358]

Yeah @alabama you answered it pretty well. I can see the first four seals were the first 3 1/2 years. Never understood that before. I’m a pre trib ear. Where is God going to draw the line on who can go. I’m not worried or obsessed. We can’t be perfect, just growing I guess. I want to be ready. When you get right to the judgment not all are going to agree with Him.

Gobe,
Where does GOD draw the line?

Going in the Rapture: those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ

Not Going in the Rapture: those that reject the Lord Jesus Christ

So how is our daily sin and lack of goodness reconciled with being fit for Justification and when the time comes Redemption/Rapture?

Well... when you are saved/born again, your spirit is sealed and can not be stained by sin... Sealed by GOD until the day of redemption. Who can break GOD's seal?

Your body and mind are not sealed and are stained daily with sin but your spirit has been sealed and is pure and clean.
We work daily to renew our minds and battle the lust of the flesh, and we fail daily but our spirit is still sealed and in tact and is perfect.

I probably did a crummy job of explaining it, but that's how I see it. Below are a few bible verses to ponder.


We are a three part being
Body - Our flesh, the carcass or vessel that carries the other two around
Soul - The mind, the part that is our emotions, happiness, sadness, generosity, greed, envy etc.
Spirit - This is the part that was made in the image of God... The least considered and the least understood part.

Hebrew 4:12 (Shows our 3 part make up)
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Ephesians 4:30(shows that we have been sealed until the day of redemption, not until you sin again)
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

John 3:16 (shows once saved you have everlasting LIFE , as in forever... not until the next time you blow it but everlasting)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 5: 24 (Again, everlasting Life...shall NOT come into condemnation. No stipulation just plain and simple Shall NOT)
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 4:24 (Here Christ says that GOD is a spirit, so if we were made in GOD's image that would be our spirit part)
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Romans 12:2 (Here we are told to renew our mind... this I think is a daily task done by prayer and being in the Word)
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

2 Corinthians 4:16 (again, renew your inward man daily)
16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

[Gobeyond]

Bama, now I’m being witnessed to. And when you sin upon sin serve God with your whole heart. Samuel. And don’t leave Him.

[Good Cheer]

Gobeyond, in the first post of this thread you asked the question of who even believes in the rapture so I'll take it that you are referring to the pre-tribulation rapture theory as is countenanced in most American protestant congregations.
I don't, having never found satisfactory determination for the arguments either pro and con. But, that said, I do believe that everyone should study carefully the cases made for both because obviously one or the other is most assuredly a deception from the devil himself.

To my mind the matter has come down to what scripture has to say about God's purposes for us and for this planet, of why He put us here and how He is going to wrap up the process. For believers in our savior who are to find themselves still standing firm when He arrives, the ones who Paul spoke of that are to be changed into a celestial body in the twinkling of an eye, for them we know that God is the all consuming fire that they will witness. Even for those who are not deceived into thinking that the devil is Christ, I can't help but wonder how many people will withstand the psychological pressure to accept the mark or that afterwards can withstand the physical hardship of life without the mark. How few will have the knowledge provided to us by God and the intestinal fortitude it takes to stand faithful for our savior?

To touch upon your original question, perhaps the cut off for the rapture is within us as opposed to some point in a sequence of events. I don't think my meat suit is going to last long enough to be standing for that instant change over into my celestial body but I think about it just the same. Oh well, one thing for sure and certain, this world is cranking up for the first tribulation whether I'll be around for the second one or not.

[Gobeyond]

Gobe,
Where does GOD draw the line?

Going in the Rapture: those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ

Not Going in the Rapture: those that reject the Lord Jesus Christ

So how is our daily sin and lack of goodness reconciled with being fit for Justification and when the time comes Redemption/Rapture?

Well... when you are saved/born again, your spirit is sealed and can not be stained by sin... Sealed by GOD until the day of redemption. Who can break GOD's seal?

Your body and mind are not sealed and are stained daily with sin but your spirit has been sealed and is pure and clean.
We work daily to renew our minds and battle the lust of the flesh, and we fail daily but our spirit is still sealed and in tact and is perfect.

I probably did a crummy job of explaining it, but that's how I see it. Below are a few bible verses to ponder.


We are a three part being
Body - Our flesh, the carcass or vessel that carries the other two around
Soul - The mind, the part that is our emotions, happiness, sadness, generosity, greed, envy etc.
Spirit - This is the part that was made in the image of God... The least considered and the least understood part.

Hebrew 4:12 (Shows our 3 part make up)
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Ephesians 4:30(shows that we have been sealed until the day of redemption, not until you sin again)
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

John 3:16 (shows once saved you have everlasting LIFE , as in forever... not until the next time you blow it but everlasting)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 5: 24 (Again, everlasting Life...shall NOT come into condemnation. No stipulation just plain and simple Shall NOT)
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 4:24 (Here Christ says that GOD is a spirit, so if we were made in GOD's image that would be our spirit part)
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Romans 12:2 (Here we are told to renew our mind... this I think is a daily task done by prayer and being in the Word)
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

2 Corinthians 4:16 (again, renew your inward man daily)
16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

@Alabama358. Seems like really good teaching and so far I agree. My spirit is my sound mind that cannot be altered. I would even go so far as to say you are rightly dividing the word of truth. That calms me a bit. Do you believe the OT scriptures sometimes still have weight and answers? Read 1samuel 12:1, 19-24. We should serve the lord. I know it doesn’t earn us salvation or the rapture, but it’s good advice to sinners as we are, and to serve the Lord with gladness.

Another piece of the puzzle. Thanks.

[Gobeyond]

Gobeyond, in the first post of this thread you asked the question of who even believes in the rapture so I'll take it that you are referring to the pre-tribulation rapture theory as is countenanced in most American protestant congregations.
I don't, having never found satisfactory determination for the arguments either pro and con. But, that said, I do believe that everyone should study carefully the cases made for both because obviously one or the other is most assuredly a deception from the devil himself.

To my mind the matter has come down to what scripture has to say about God's purposes for us and for this planet, of why He put us here and how He is going to wrap up the process. For believers in our savior who are to find themselves still standing firm when He arrives, the ones who Paul spoke of that are to be changed into a celestial body in the twinkling of an eye, for them we know that God is the all consuming fire that they will witness. Even for those who are not deceived into thinking that the devil is Christ, I can't help but wonder how many people will withstand the psychological pressure to accept the mark or that afterwards can withstand the physical hardship of life without the mark. How few will have the knowledge provided to us by God and the intestinal fortitude it takes to stand faithful for our savior?

To touch upon your original question, perhaps the cut off for the rapture is within us as opposed to some point in a sequence of events. I don't think my meat suit is going to last long enough to be standing for that instant change over into my celestial body but I think about it just the same. Oh well, one thing for sure and certain, this world is cranking up for the first tribulation whether I'll be around for the second one or not.

I don’t know your doctrine too well. But what you said didn’t speak to my spirit that well. There won’t be any stress involved in the change over. The rapture should be next to happen. The key is that Paul said comfort each other with these words but I know some just don’t see it. It’s the usual saying it nonchalantly, still hidden. It is a form of death and changing to eternal life. We are not appointed to wrath’. Why would He beat up the bride before marrying her, kinda thing. Who can stand?’

[Alabama358]

Even for those who are not deceived into thinking that the devil is Christ, I can't help but wonder how many people will withstand the psychological pressure to accept the mark or that afterwards can withstand the physical hardship of life without the mark. How few will have the knowledge provided to us by God and the intestinal fortitude it takes to stand faithful for our savior?

Interesting question... maybe 3 groups

* 1) Fools and wicked folks
This group will line up for the Mark of the Beast, simply because they are wicked and or fools

** 2) Folks that are playing religion but that really don't know Christ
This group will take it when the Anti-Christ turns up the pressure

*** 3) The Elect, born again Folks
This group will hold out and not take the mark... as Christ said "if it were possible) meaning it is not possible


* Romans 1:21-23
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

** Matthew 7:21-2
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

*** Matthew 24:
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

But it defiantly will be some tuff times for sure

[Alabama358]

@Alabama358. Do you believe the OT scriptures sometimes still have weight and answers? Read 1samuel 12:1, 19-24. We should serve the lord.

All Scripture OT and NT have equal weight. The Whole thing front to back is our Earthly Employee handbook if you will.

2 Timothy 3:16
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

[Alabama358]

We are not appointed to wrath’. Why would He beat up the bride before marrying her, kinda thing. Who can stand?’

The first (roughly) 3-1/2 years is not GOD's wrath...The last 3-1/2 years is GOD's wrath

It goes:

First 3-1/2 years - Tribulation and then Great Tribulation
Twinkling of Eye - Rapture
Last 3-1/2 years - GOD's Wrath

Read Matthew 24: 1-51

[Good Cheer]

I don’t know your doctrine too well. But what you said didn’t speak to my spirit that well. There won’t be any stress involved in the change over. The rapture should be next to happen. The key is that Paul said comfort each other with these words but I know some just don’t see it. It’s the usual saying it nonchalantly, still hidden. It is a form of death and changing to eternal life. We are not appointed to wrath’. Why would He beat up the bride before marrying her, kinda thing. Who can stand?’

All of mankind has always been given to die in all manner of ways; that's graduation rather than tribulation.
What you're referring to as beating up the bride is the time during which the faithful are delivered up to stand firm and are to say without premeditation what the holy spirit gives them to say.

As I said, the pretrib rapture theory hasn't convinced me, and partly that's because of there being what I see as some basic misconceptions on the part of those who preach it. The closest to making sense of it (the pretrib theory) that I've run upon was Chuck Missler but even with him there's a fundamental break in the foundations.
If you are correct in expecting a pretrib rapture, great!

[Rizzo]

The Rapture

So, for Christians, when you die you go to Heaven to be with God because your sins were forgiven when you received Christ as your Savior.
However, the Bible describes that at the time of the Rapture the physical body is resurrected, glorified, and reunited with the soul/spirit.

If believers go to be with Christ immediately after death, what is the purpose of this resurrection?

Some seem to believe that when we die we go to a temporary place in a sleep state until the resurrection of the body, and then judgement.

But, Jesus told one of the men also being crucified with him "“Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise”. He said "today"....not some time later.

To me, the Rapture and events afterwards seems overly dramatic.
Trumpets sounding, people taken up, Spirits in Heaven reunited with their bodies, white horses in the sky, Jesus coming to earth to establish His kingdom, etc., etc.

Jesus' kingdowm is not on this material earth. It is a Spiritual place in the Spiritual Realms (Heaven).

What happened to the notion that when you die, you are judged and then you go where you deserve or need to be?

[Alabama358]

The Rapture

Rizzo,
Could you possibly declare what you believe?
Do you consider yourself a Christian?

[CBH]

I, too, believe the gates of heaven are narrower than many Christians would like to believe.

[Alabama358]

I, too, believe the gates of heaven are narrower than many Christians would like to believe.

Very True!

Matthew 7: 13-14
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

[Rizzo]

Rizzo,
Could you possibly declare what you believe?
Do you consider yourself a Christian?

In general, a Christian is a person who believes in Jesus Christ and follows his teachings.
I fall into that general definition but have some issues with what is in the Bible, such as we are not accountable for our sins if we have accepted Jesus as our Savior. Those who do accept Jesus get a free gift of salvation despite any sins they commit.
I believe we are accountable for our sins.

I believe in reincarnation also and because of that I have labeled myself (I really do not like labels) a Hybrid Christian when people ask what I am.
That is, a person who believes in Jesus and tries to follow His teachings, but also believes in reincarnation.
I also believe that there are some mis-translations/understandings to some passages in the Bible, such as the common understanding that only Christians get to the Father and everyone else goes to hell.
I do not believe that God is going to reject non-Christian, God loving people such as the Jews, etc.

So, that is where I am coming from and hope that I answered your questions.

[Alabama358]

In general, a Christian is a person who believes in Jesus Christ and follows his teachings.
I fall into that general definition but have some issues with what is in the Bible, such as we are not accountable for our sins if we have accepted Jesus as our Savior. Those who do accept Jesus get a free gift of salvation despite any sins they commit.
I believe we are accountable for our sins.

I believe in reincarnation also and because of that I have labeled myself (I really do not like labels) a Hybrid Christian when people ask what I am.
That is, a person who believes in Jesus and tries to follow His teachings, but also believes in reincarnation.
I also believe that there are some mis-translations/understandings to some passages in the Bible, such as the common understanding that only Christians get to the Father and everyone else goes to hell.
I do not believe that God is going to reject non-Christian, God loving people such as the Jews, etc.

So, that is where I am coming from and hope that I answered your questions.

WOW!!! that must be difficult. Is that a self taught discipline or is there like a Hybrid Christian Church where you live.
It just seems that it would be difficult to connect all those dots

[Alabama358]

But, Jesus told one of the men also being crucified with him "“Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise”. He said "today"....not some time later.


I think if you move the comma over one word so that it falls after the word Today and not you... it is easier to understand

[Dom]

You are not saved by works. Your are saved by believing in Jesus Christ as lord & savior. Jesus died & shed his blood to cover our sins. No amount of works will save. Only believing in Jesus .

[Rizzo]

I think if you move the comma over one word so that it falls after the word Today and not you... it is easier to understand

The passage was written correctly and the message is clear.
See below:
Luke 23:43
New International Version
Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

New Living Translation
And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

English Standard Version
And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Berean Standard Bible
And Jesus said to him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Berean Literal Bible
And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

King James Bible
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

New King James Version
And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

But, if you change the punctuation, the meaning gets changed.
Do so if you'd like to if that makes it easier for you to understand but the meaning would be wrong.
Also, as you should know, changing what is in the Bible by adding, deleting or I would also say changing the punctuation, which would change the meaning, is a big no-no with God and has some bad ramifications.

Jus' sayin'

[Good Cheer]

That could take anyone to a profitable study of where Jesus was and what He was doing for three days if the thief would be with Him in paradise on the first.

Including this link just for the referenced verses.
https://www.christianity.com/jesus/death-and-resurrection/the-crucifixion/did-jesus-descend-into-hell.html

[Alabama358]

The passage was written correctly and the message is clear.
Yes in deed Mr. Rizzo the message is clear, maybe the punctuation made it confusing for you...
1- Because of his belief he was forgiven of his sins and would not be held to account (punished) for them. "the Gift of Salvation"
2- He was going to Paradise/Heaven and he wasn't being reincarnated as a dung beetle or an angry little girl or anything else

A Gift of Salvation and straight to heaven. Neither of which you believe


But, if you change the punctuation, the meaning gets changed.
Do so if you'd like to if that makes it easier for you to understand but the meaning would be wrong

You are an interesting character...
You believe in Jesus but not his teachings,
You believe in the Bible except the parts that go against your feelings
You believe in reincarnation although you didn't stipulate how many times that you have to take the ride before you get to heaven which pretty much goes against everything from Genesis to Revelation.

The Jews have the Talmud
The Mormons have the book of Mormon
The Muzzies have the quran
Buddhism has the Lotus Sutra

Where did you get your Hybrid Christian Doctrine, is there a book or a church or is this just a compilation of your feelings.


Also, as you should know, changing what is in the Bible by adding, deleting or I would also say changing the punctuation, which would change the meaning, is a big no-no with God and has some bad ramifications.
You must be referring to the warnings in Deuteronomy 4:2 or Proverbs 30:5-6 or maybe Revelation 22:18-19

I am pretty certain that it was not talking about punctuation seeing that Chapters, verses and Punctuation wasn't added until the 1500s.
"The earliest manuscripts had negligible punctuation and breathing marks. The manuscripts also lacked word spacing, so words, sentences, and paragraphs would be a continuous string of letters (scriptio continua), often with line breaks in the middle of words."

I think the big no-no that you refer to in the above stated chapters and verses warn against adding stuff in like "Reincarnation" or taking stuff out like "The remission of Sins" and probably not so much about punctuation or grammar


Jus' sayin'

It sounds cute....but what exactly are you Jus' sayin'? On 2nd thought don't answer that

[.429&H110]

"In my father's house there are many mansions..."

"In the beginning God created the Heavens..."

We each have a unique individual relationship with how we know God.
Know God's Sovereignty.
We study our Infinite God, try to finitely define Him, we cannot. He Is.
Closest as I can come: God is Love.
My Savior said to evangelize all the world!

Woe to him that believes himself God
trying to fill their empty with the world's distractions
and bent on destroying America for fun and profit.
That is the lost soul I am looking for to save.
So that we can get to Matthew 24
"...and then the end shall come."
Soon.

[Alabama358]

"In my father's house there are many mansions..."

"In the beginning God created the Heavens..."

We each have a unique individual relationship with how we know God.
Know God's Sovereignty.
We study our Infinite God, try to finitely define Him, we cannot. He Is.
Closest as I can come: God is Love.
My Savior said to evangelize all the world!

Woe to him that believes himself God
trying to fill their empty with the world's distractions
and bent on destroying America for fun and profit.
That is the lost soul I am looking for to save.
So that we can get to Matthew 24
"...and then the end shall come."
Soon.
.429
I have had this conversation even with family members and told them to use caution not to try to create GOD in their image.
Folks say for example, I know the bible says this, that or the other but I can't believe that GOD would really do that or be that mean.
And that is where I have to step in and say, your feelings are really irreverent... When you say I know GOD's word says one thing but I don't feel that way. In essence you are down playing The Almighty's sovereignty and trying to create him in your own image.

[Good Cheer]

A presentation on this topic by Dr. Michael Heiser.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yT-uyHaApMU

[ioon44]

Good Cheer thanks for posting the late Dr. Michael Heiser's teachings, always a blessing to listen to him teach.

"cut off for the rapture", the words cut off should be sobering, if a person is not fully trusting in the Grace of Jesus Christ and his blood sacrifice on the cross, then one will be cut off.

All my hope is based on Jesus Christ's Blood and Righteous, nothing of my own which is filthy rags.

[Good Cheer]

"In my father's house there are many mansions..."

"In the beginning God created the Heavens..."

We each have a unique individual relationship with how we know God.
Know God's Sovereignty.
We study our Infinite God, try to finitely define Him, we cannot. He Is.
Closest as I can come: God is Love.
My Savior said to evangelize all the world!

Woe to him that believes himself God
trying to fill their empty with the world's distractions
and bent on destroying America for fun and profit.
That is the lost soul I am looking for to save.
So that we can get to Matthew 24
"...and then the end shall come."
Soon.

Spot on. We were made as individuals and we are dealt with as such right up until the one unforgivable sin.
Will our creator select His first string to send in at that moment? I wonder.

[.429&H110]

We do in fact create God in our own image,
then through Bible study we figure out
the Nature of God as best as we can.
A very steep learning curve:
Idolatry is bad. Coveting is the first sin. I am not God.
"They are not the twelve suggestions" (thank you Charlton Heston)
We were not made to learn this by our own lonely selves.
We need fellowship.

I only write "God" as a shorthand for the Triune
else I would write the hymn, "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Greatest name I Know"
Some people still do not know who Jesus is.

Google: Do you know Jesus?
You will make the AI grunt for a second
and get billions of hits. This post now included...
The AI might not know who, but knows where.

While we are hanging about waiting for the New Jerusalem
I am curious about the new evangelism, since reading is not taught anymore.
Door knocking can get us shot. What to do?
Maybe education should go back to the churches where it came from.
Maybe if the kids learned, they could teach their parents how to read.
Let the teacher's union teach their own kids, not mine.
"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." R10:17

Cowboy Gospel never died around here,
the kids are playing the old time gospel very well.
Been awhile since I have seen a fiddle-dobro-banjo-guitar-bass-spoons
playing gospel on stage by teenagers, here they are.
Eighteen children playing four octaves of chimes, golly!
If if if we could get Cowboy Gospel on MTV?
Salvation on an iphone?

"With God nothing is impossible"

[Good Cheer]

After a few decades to mull it over it seemed obvious that we didn't create God in our image.
No doubt lots of people create their own gods but if you're for God then no, you didn't create Him.

On a side note, I have a book received as a gift in the 90's with a photo of an Assyrian statue of a desert demon which happens to be down right cherubic if you study scripture. That gave me pause and a glimmer of an idea concerning the many gods of the Old Testament, that the various peoples' perceptions of and experiences with those beings they encountered perhaps depended in part upon whose side they were on. And of course it gave me something to think about concerning the tendencies towards the anthropomorphizing of gods, that being a idea thrown out there most often by people with a need to explain away God and gods in general. What it boils down to is that in supernatural experiences the beings involved decide how they are going to present themselves to and how they will interact with people.

[1hole]

.429
I have had this conversation even with family members and told them to use caution not to try to create GOD in their image.
Folks say for example, I know the bible says this, that or the other but I can't believe that GOD would really do that or be that mean.
And that is where I have to step in and say, your feelings are really irreverent... When you say I know GOD's word says one thing but I don't feel that way. In essence you are down playing The Almighty's sovereignty and trying to create him in your own image.

Very perceptive. But ... much of scripture is metopher or aligory and insisting on sticking to some literal words (i.e., "... it says right here ...") without striving to grasp the literal message may open us to massive confusion.

For instance:

1. "Thou shall not kill" (Ex 20:13) taken literally would mean it's sinful to even swat a fly; that's obviously not true. I mean, God clearly finds no offense at killing human enemies in war, or stoning people to death for adultry under the Mosaic Law, etc. So, that "kill" word should rightly have been translated to "...you shall not commit murder" (Ex 20:13) and what the KJV scripture specifically says is not at all what it means.

2. "In the morning my prayers shall prevent thee". (Psm 88:13). So, what is it about our prayers that can prevent God from executing his day's plans; answer is, "NOTHING!". That's simply a currently wrong translation rising from the days of Shakesperian English! What "prevent" meant at that time was "precede" or "go before", effectively meaning our prayers should be before God from the moment we wake up.

There are quite a few other words Christians tend to wrongly get heated about in well meaning efforts to "stick to scripture exactly as it's written" without considering what the original message was.

[1hole]

I think if you move the comma over one word so that it falls after the word Today and not you... it is easier to understand

So, just moving a comma can change the meaning of many things? True!

BUT, in that admission, you put your finger on one of the biggest hurtles Bible translators have to sweat and pray over; the old languages didn't have such punctuation! In fact, they had no periods, no question marks, no paragraphs and, sometimes, no space between words. The sentence structure and grammar was always much different than ours and we know of no dictionaries to help them translate. All of that makes it very hard for anyone striving to accurately translate the old manuscripts into modern English! I believe it was the mind of God that got so much agreement in our various mainstream translations.

[Good Cheer]

Very perceptive. But ... much of scripture is metopher or aligory and insisting on sticking to some literal words (i.e., "... it says right here ...") without striving to grasp the literal message may open us to massive confusion.

For instance:

1. "Thou shall not kill" (Ex 20:13) taken literally would mean it's sinful to even swat a fly; that's obviously not true. I mean, God clearly finds no offense at killing human enemies in war, or stoning people to death for adultry under the Mosaic Law, etc. So, that "kill" word should rightly have been translated to "...you shall not commit murder" (Ex 20:13) and what the KJV scripture specifically says is not at all what it means.

2. "In the morning my prayers shall prevent thee". (Psm 88:13). So, what is it about our prayers that can prevent God from executing his day's plans; answer is, "NOTHING!". That's simply a currently wrong translation rising from the days of Shakesperian English! What "prevent" meant at that time was "precede" or "go before", effectively meaning our prayers should be before God from the moment we wake up.

There are quite a few other words Christians tend to wrongly get heated about in well meaning efforts to "stick to scripture exactly as it's written" without considering what the original message was.

And as has been demonstrated before in the Deep Theological Discussion forum, not just words but entire passages taken out of context and misunderstood because the translators, the readers, philosophizers and theorizers fail to pay attention to the subject and the object while not bothering to look up the words in a (pre-Nelson hopefully) Strong's Concordance.

[Alabama358]

So, just moving a comma can change the meaning of many things? True!

BUT, in that admission, you put your finger on one of the biggest hurtles Bible translators have to sweat and pray over; the old languages didn't have such punctuation! In fact, they had no periods, no question marks, no paragraphs and, sometimes, no space between words. The sentence structure and grammar was always much different than ours and we know of no dictionaries to help them translate. All of that makes it very hard for anyone striving to accurately translate the old manuscripts into modern English!
The KJV Bible was Translated over a 7 year period by 47+ translators and scholars.(including the works of William Tyndale and others)
We are talking about World Class Scholars and Translators... The Best of the Best! It took years of meticulous dedicated study and analysis to complete their final Translation.
We are not talking about a few scrubs sitting around with their Scofield study bible saying "what is the Greek word for this that or the other". These Scholars and Linguistic experts had libraries of information to draw from.
*Furthermore, if you believe that all scripture is GOD breathed... then it should be simple to take the leap of faith that the Holy Spirit had a hand in their work and that they weren't simply shooting from the hip without so much as a dictionary.

*2 Timothy 3:16
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


I believe it was the mind of God that got so much agreement in our various mainstream translations.

* I am not presumptuous enough to think that I know the mind of GOD...

**So I will say it like this, having many mainstream modern day translations that differ one from another only serve the folks pushing doctrines of men and sewing seeds of confusion amongst believers is not fruitful.


*1 Corinthians 1:25
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

**1 Corinthians 14:33
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

[Alabama358]

Very perceptive. But ... much of scripture is metopher or aligory and insisting on sticking to some literal words (i.e., "... it says right here ...") without striving to grasp the literal message may open us to massive confusion.


"Much of Scripture is metaphor or allegory"???

How much is "Much"? 50-60%

Much? I think not. Some folks push that idea so that they can tell you what "certain scripture" means and how it fits their (sometimes false) doctrine.

I think maybe the word your looking for is parables, and yes Jesus spoke in parables (fulfilling previous prophecy)

Matthew 13: 34-35
34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

But...to say that much of the Bible is Parables would even be a whopper.

1 Corinthians 14:33
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

[Good Cheer]

All of which is illustrating the importance of digging in and studying.

Scripture poses a huge body of knowledge and if you know just enough to get into trouble, well, you get into trouble.
Once you get into the ditch on an incorrect premise it can be pretty hard to get back out.

I'm going to drift back to the beginnings of this thread. As I've never been convinced there is a whisking away until when the two witnesses are murdered it's of interest to see how other people interpret scripture and arrive at other conclusions.

[1hole]

All of which is illustrating the importance of digging in and studying.

Scripture poses a huge body of knowledge and if you know just enough to get into trouble, well, you get into trouble.

One of the best Bible study books is a concordance. They list every verse containing any word you want to better understand. When you see the big picture of any word you will better understand the heart of the Author. For instance, look up and read every use of "baptize" in a complete concordance. You will likely find that, spiritually, God sees true (saving) baptism as much more than just a brief public ritual of dunking, pouring or sprinkling anyone with water.

[Good Cheer]

One of the best Bible study books is a concordance. They list every verse containing any word you want to better understand. When you see the big picture of any word you will better understand the heart of the Author. For instance, look up and read every use of "baptize" in a complete concordance. You will likely find that, spiritually, God sees true (saving) baptism as much more than just a brief public ritual of dunking, pouring or sprinkling anyone with water.

Strong's rocks. Pre-Nelson rocks Stronger.:rolleyes:

[Alabama358]

When you see the big picture of any word you will better understand the heart of the Author.

Who is the Author?

[1hole]

Who is the Author?

Who? Goodness man, I don't play pointless wise guy games.

[Alabama358]

Who? Goodness man, I don't play pointless wise guy games.

No need to get your hackles up...
I was simply trying to open the door for you to explain your take on how to study the bible and discern scripture (Not Pointless Wise guy games as much as Deep Theological discussion) keeping in mind that the Holy Spirit is the Author. It was more of a rhetorical question in that I think you know that scripture is GOD breathed.

It appears you are to sensitive to offer a mature response so I will take a shot.

I think it is important to understand how words were used within the time period and the vernacular of the times written. (use of Strong's etc.)

Then take that understanding and compare scripture with scripture to put context to the message being taught, because the the Word never contradicts itself. At times it may appear that certain verses are in conflict with others... but with diligent and earnest study that fog goes away.

Finally and most importantly The Author of all scripture lives on the inside of every born again saved person.
The Holy Spirit doesn't need to look up the meaning and context of words... He wrote it! That is why I say "most importantly" Look inward and trust the helper.

Bible study is a lot like long-range shooting... you have to get quiet behind the rifle to get the desired results.

John 14:26
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1 John 2:27
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

2 Timothy 3:16
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

[Good Cheer]

We grow in the word and word grows within us.
Read it and study it again and again and again.

[1hole]

No need to get your hackles up...

Trust me, both of my hackles are lying at peace. :)


I was simply trying to open the door for you to explain your take on how to study the bible and discern scripture (Not Pointless Wise guy games ....

So... you asked me a sarcastic question, "who is the author" (of scripture), supposedly so I might once again explain to you how I study the Bible? Well, you're a bright guy but you say you already know who the author of the original scriptures so perhaps you will now forgive me when I say I don't quite believe your wounded heart word game motive.


... keeping in mind that the Holy Spirit is the Author. It was more of a rhetorical question in that I think you know that scripture is GOD breathed.

Yeah, I think you're right.

I'm sure you want us to "believe" you meant all that with your who's the author post but...well. However, in pursuit of site peace, I'll concede that you're probably smarter, more mature and understand much more about scripture than me but my aged hackles are not yet gullible enough to allow me to swallow your defense as stated!

It's my bedtime, hope you and your's have a great Lord's Day tomorrow! :)

[Alabama358]

Trust me, both of my hackles are lying at peace. :)



So... you asked me a sarcastic question, "who is the author" (of scripture), supposedly so I might once again explain to you how I study the Bible? Well, you're a bright guy but you say you already know who the author of the original scriptures so perhaps you will now forgive me when I say I don't quite believe your wounded heart word game motive.



Yeah, I think you're right.

I'm sure you want us to "believe" you meant all that with your who's the author post but...well. However, in pursuit of site peace, I'll concede that you're probably smarter, more mature and understand much more about scripture than me but my aged hackles are not yet gullible enough to allow me to swallow your defense as stated!

It's my bedtime, hope you and your's have a great Lord's Day tomorrow! :)

Sorry you feel that way

[Good Cheer]

Just to venture back to the original point of this topic for a moment, the globgov devil worshiping freaks are calling for everyone to be issued a universal digital identification for your soon to be cashless "money". And they aren't being bashful about saying it's for bringing about complete control, creating the support mechanisms for the implementation of the devilish mark. So how does figure into where yall think a cutoff is?
https://www.planet-today.com/2023/06/united-nations-orders-banks-worldwide.html

Personally I just think it's plum amazing to see prophecy coming to pass, wham-bam-bam, point after point after point. Used to be it was a long time in between events you could point to but now... Now events are speeding up, happening faster and faster. And even that's a fulfillment of prophesy of its own self. What a time to be alive, to be able to see the words of the Old and New Testaments coming to life before our eyes.[smilie=w:
So, how far do yall (pre-trib rapture adherents) expect this to go?

[1hole]

Sorry you feel that way

So, you're "Sorry" ... sorry about what?

I've tried for a week to figure what you mean with that line but I give up ... what "way" do you think is "that way?", and what "hackles" are you referring too? I mean, are you sorry that I (again) disagree with you without being even slightly offended by your (once again unstated) position? If so, trust me my friend, my hackles are at peace.

For the record, I believe that taking personal offense about opposing doctrine is unbiblical, usually quite petty and certainly spiritually immature; it's just not the way I chose to feel about other people.

I'm hoping you have a very good day sir! :)

[1hole]

"Much of Scripture is metaphor or allegory"???

How much is "Much"? 50-60%

Much? I think not. Some folks push that idea so that they can tell you what "certain scripture" means and how it fits their (sometimes false) doctrine.

I think maybe the word your looking for is parables, ....


No, I meant what I said. "Metaphors" are words and phrases that convey even more meaning than their literal meaning; parables don't do that. For instance:

1. Lily of the Valley refers to the beauty of Lord Jesus.
2. Bright Morning Star isn't about a star, it's about Jesus.
3. Cornerstone isn't about a square rock, it's about Jesus.
4. Living Waters isn't about a river, it's about Jesus.
5. Rock of Ages isn't about a rock, it's about eternal Jesus.
6. Good Shepherd isn't about herding, it's about Jesus.
7. Lion of Judah isn't about a lion, it's about Jesus.
8. Word of God isn't about a dictionary, it's about jesus.

Well ... there are many, many others but I'm sure you get my point.

In spite of its many (but spiritually trivial) errors, the beloved KJV was and remains the most common Bible in the English speaking world. Everyone knows about that but few people know King James was Scottish and his three teams of translating Scots were mostly Calvinist/Presbyterian. (Seems that solid theological foundation DID affect the translators at least a little bit!)

Many of the KJV translators finished their work, went home and continued to preach from their favorite older translations; Geneva, Wickliff, Bishop's, etc., so it appears even they didn't think they had finally accomplished the penultimate English Bible.

Reference my frequent use of "some", "many", "most", etc., that's the way history writers commonly put it and, since I wasn't there at the time, I can do no better. It seems that most writers skip right over the specific names and exact numbers of people involved in events at different times in the flow of history. I wonder why the experts so consistently hide critical historical information some folk think they see in that? ;)

[Alabama358]

No, I meant what I said. "Metaphors" are words and phrases that convey even more meaning than their literal meaning; parables don't do that. For instance:

1. Lily of the Valley refers to the beauty of Lord Jesus.
2. Bright Morning Star isn't about a star, it's about Jesus.
3. Cornerstone isn't about a square rock, it's about Jesus.
4. Living Waters isn't about a river, it's about Jesus.
5. Rock of Ages isn't about a rock, it's about eternal Jesus.
6. Good Shepherd isn't about herding, it's about Jesus.
7. Lion of Judah isn't about a lion, it's about Jesus.
8. Word of God isn't about a dictionary, it's about jesus.

Well ... there are many, many others but I'm sure you get my point.

In spite of its many (but spiritually trivial) errors, the beloved KJV was and remains the most common Bible in the English speaking world. Everyone knows about that but few people know King James was Scottish and his three teams of translating Scots were mostly Calvinist/Presbyterian. (Seems that solid theological foundation DID affect the translators at least a little bit!)

Many of the KJV translators finished their work, went home and continued to preach from their favorite older translations; Geneva, Wickliff, Bishop's, etc., so it appears even they didn't think they had finally accomplished the penultimate English Bible. Is this a Wikipedia fact?
What is your source that MANY of the translators had no confidence in their years of work and went back to their old versions to preach from?
I am sure that you can provide a list of said scholars so that it can be fact checked... unless it is of course just more of your made up dribble or...

"I'm sure those errors aren't YOUR'S, you're just quoting misleading men" (by the way that is your quote)

Reference my frequent use of "some", "many", "most", etc., that's the way history writers commonly put it and, since I wasn't there at the time, I can do no better. It seems that most writers skip right over the specific names and exact numbers of people involved in events at different times in the flow of history. I wonder why the experts so consistently hide critical historical information some folk think they see in that? ;)


There is no doubt very suitable metaphors in God's word

For example:

Proverbs 26:11
11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

[Good Cheer]

So, three days after the two witnesses get murdered.

[Alabama358]

So, three days after the two witnesses get murdered.

Yes?

[Good Cheer]

That's the cut off.

[Alabama358]

That's the cut off.

At what point in the 7 year (Daniel's 70th week) point do you think they are killed and left on display?

[Good Cheer]

Three days before Christ steps in.
I know that isn't an answer you're looking for but that's what we have to hang our hats on.

Are you desirous of attaching the rapture to the seven years proposed for the 70th week in order to argue for a point in the progression of events?

[Alabama358]

Three days before Christ steps in.
I know that isn't an answer you're looking for but that's what we have to hang our hats on.

Are you desirous of attaching the rapture to the seven years proposed for the 70th week in order to argue for a point in the progression of events?

Just desirous of where your coming from, how you got there and what scripture it is based on... pretty simple

[Good Cheer]

It is simple. Harming them is not allowed. Up until then the devil gets to play super star.

[1hole]

Proverbs 26:11

11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

Goodness man, now you hit me with a Holy Spirit inspired sneer! (I wonder how He feels about that.) Anyway, it greatly pains me to confess that you have really put me in my place this time! Even so, you should know that my now sad, tear soaked old gray hackles are still lying flat. ( ;)) But you still not only don't intelligently tell me what I've said that you take such strong exception to so you relieve me of any Christian reason to bother with you anymore.

As a guess, I suggest you seek some honest background information of the formation of the 1611 KJV, and it's later history of revisions too. There's much more to its beginnings than you've been told and I suspect you'll be astonished with the learning.

[Alabama358]

Goodness man, now you hit me with a Holy Spirit inspired sneer! (I wonder how He feels about that.) You should ask him... but you need to stop talking and be quite long enough to hear his answer.


As a guess, I suggest you seek some honest background information of the formation of the 1611 KJV, and it's later history of revisions too. There's much more to its beginnings than you've been told and I suspect you'll be astonished with the learning. So....just as I suspected, no actual list of names... no actual source to support your made up regurgitated dribble. It is pitiful the length that you seem willing to go to promote a doctrine or personal opinions

I am growing weary of swatting down your foolish follies

[.429&H110]

:popcorn:

...ask three Baptists, get five opinions...
From my point of view I would rather watch y'all compare notes
than argue over whose notes are correct.
"Nobody's right, if everybody's wrong" sang the Buffalo Springfield.

My Savior has
Infinite Love
Infinite Wrath
Infinite Sense of Humor

I know about the Humor, because He Loves to hear us sing hymns.
If you really want to make God laugh, tell Him your plans.

We hold deep convictions, and need to define them, so we can understand them.
Don't forget that Koine had no commas or little verse numbers.

[Alabama358]

:popcorn:


"Nobody's right, if everybody's wrong" sang the Buffalo Springfield.



That song is an oldy but a goodey... I actually went to youtube and watched it, brings back memories of yesteryear.

[Alabama358]

Another great song with words of wisdom is...

"You've got to stand for something, or you'll fall for anything" by Aaron Tippin

Words of wisdom that can be applied to regular daily life stuff and especially true in our spiritual walk.

[Good Cheer]

:popcorn:

...ask three Baptists, get five opinions...
From my point of view I would rather watch y'all compare notes
than argue over whose notes are correct.
"Nobody's right, if everybody's wrong" sang the Buffalo Springfield.

My Savior has
Infinite Love
Infinite Wrath
Infinite Sense of Humor

I know about the Humor, because He Loves to hear us sing hymns.
If you really want to make God laugh, tell Him your plans.

We hold deep convictions, and need to define them, so we can understand them.
Don't forget that Koine had no commas or little verse numbers.

His sense of humor is another something to be appreciated when studying scripture. :rolleyes:

[.429&H110]

A long time ago my wife produced twins.
That was where I first heard about my plans do not matter to God at all.

[Alabama358]

A long time ago my wife produced twins.
That was where I first heard about my plans do not matter to God at all.

Psalms 127
3 Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.
4 As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth.
5 Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.

[1hole]

... my plans do not matter to God at all.

All the smart people say plan your life ... so I did but I didn't ask the Lord much about it at the time.

In 1965 I had a E-tech job I really liked working with RCA at Cape Canaveral FL and we both planned to stay at or near our family home in NE Florida. BUT, an interesting RCA/NASA job opened up for us and our three little girls a chance to live/work in the mountains of western N.C. for a while in 1968. I took the job, planning to live in the mountains for 2-3 years; we're still here. Our three girls married local boys - all Christians - and they have presented us with ten grandchildren plus five great grandchildren. We love our unplanned life and thank God for what HE has done for us, all done without Him listening to any real guidance from us!

Bottom line, we know life's details can be quite difficult for all of us at times but we have learned to put our lives in God's hands. We've happily learned that HIS long range plans are much better than anything we narrow minded mortals can dream of.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Cutoff for the rapture.
I just found out that I DIDN'T make the cut for the rapture.
Yesterday, Glencoe was 99º with high dew point of 80º ...record HIGH humidity
Now Jesus wouldn't have left me behind with a broken AC unit, if I made the cut.
:holysheep :holysheep :holysheep

[1hole]

I just found out that I DIDN'T make the cut for the rapture.
Yesterday, Glencoe was 99º with high dew point of 80º ...record HIGH humidity
Now Jesus wouldn't have left me behind with a broken AC unit, if I made the cut.
:holysheep :holysheep :holysheep

Summer without AC in Glencoe? You're doomed.

;)

[Good Cheer]

I think a lot of church going people who consider themselves Christians are going to hear "I knew you not" when they stand in front of the Lord.

Those church's put on the Sunday show, but where does the money go? Does it go to help the sick, the needy, those in prison? Or is it spent on big fancy buildings, big salary's and such?

If you are not feeding his sheep, tending his flock. How can you call yourself a Christian?

This country is in real trouble until a majority turn back to the Lord. Go down on their knees and repent. And I don't see much sign of it happening.

I know there are good people out there. I keep finding them here for sure. And I know I am far from perfect. I should be doing a better job than I am of spreading the good news.

"I knew you not" is going to be some pretty hard words.

Looking at Matthew 7:23 and 25:12, oh so much to think about.

[Good Cheer]

This young man really is a pretty good teacher.
Posting this video of his here as it touches upon the rapture.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52TrIEFt_Js

[MT Gianni]

Stay away from beaches and deserts, the wise man built his house upon the rock.