Dry and crusty

[freakonaleash]

I'm shooting black powder in old lever guns and figured since all the champs in silhouette competition were using Swiss 1.5 that that would be the powder I wanted. So I bought a case.... Turns out I get better accuracy with WANO! Swiss fouling is dry and crusty, WANO is moist. First two shots with both powders group with in an inch and the next three start to move out, as much as 5 to 6 inches with Swiss and getting some leading too.. They only go out 3 inches with WANO. So, can I solve this with a bullet that carries more lube? I wipe after every five shots. I'd hate to have to wipe after every shot, kind of defeats the purpose of a lever gun. Certainly they had the solution to this 130 years ago.

[Nobade]

Bullets with more and better lube help, as does keeping them super soft. For my own use in lever guns, I cheat and duplex load. 10% of RE7 or similar under the BP charge cleans it right up.

[Castaway]

The key to accuracy is consistency. Wiping after every shot is consistent, wiping after every 3, 4, or 6 shots isn’t as your barrel is different on each shot. Try blow tubing after each shot

[indian joe]

kinda defeats the purpose of a lever gun !!!!
Duplex will work - I use 4227 in a couple lever guns - have not tried RE7 but should be fine - seems we want a medium burn rate powder
What lube are you using ? and yeah we do have to search for boolits that carry enough lube to do the job (they are the minority of designs)

I have never shot Swiss - dont like Wano - used to like Goex (last century) - homemade on willlow charcoal beats em all in the fouling department.

[freakonaleash]

kinda defeats the purpose of a lever gun !!!!
Duplex will work - I use 4227 in a couple lever guns - have not tried RE7 but should be fine - seems we want a medium burn rate powder
What lube are you using ? and yeah we do have to search for boolits that carry enough lube to do the job (they are the minority of designs)

I have never shot Swiss - dont like Wano - used to like Goex (last century) - homemade on willlow charcoal beats em all in the fouling department.
Yes. Trying to get five shots with reasonable accuracy, otherwise I might as well pitch these lever guns and go back to single shots. My lube is a mix of DGL and SPG. I'm going to fool around with duplex and also get a new bullet mold made that will carry more lube. I have two guns with 24 inch barrels that show a nice lube star at the muzzle. This one has a 28 inch barrel and is obviously lube starved. I hadn't planned on liking WANO or GOEX, SCHUETZEN or KIK, but they all perform better than SWISS. unfortunately I just bought a whole case of SWISS.
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[MichaelR]

Try 2 parts jojoba oil to 1 part bees wax by weigh for your lube.

[country gent]

What ou might try before having a new mould cut is a grease cookie . not the best but will tell you if more lube will help. When doing this compress powder with the first heavy was and then insert grease cookie in to wad and a this was and seat bullet touching.
You can make a sheet of your llube by rolling it out between 2 sheets of wax paper with a couple strips of flat stock the thickness you want the cookie. Once tolled peel one side ofwax paper away when the wad is seated and compressed use the case mouth to cut the cookie out

[indian joe]

What ou might try before having a new mould cut is a grease cookie . not the best but will tell you if more lube will help. When doing this compress powder with the first heavy was and then insert grease cookie in to wad and a this was and seat bullet touching.
You can make a sheet of your llube by rolling it out between 2 sheets of wax paper with a couple strips of flat stock the thickness you want the cookie. Once tolled peel one side ofwax paper away when the wad is seated and compressed use the case mouth to cut the cookie out

I detest grease cookies but for the purpose of proving the point -----proly a smart plan - we casted some lube sheet by pouring the melted lube onto a tray of hot water - it forms evenly if the heat lets it spread properly before it starts to cool. I use em cut to size over the ball in cap pistols - much easier than trowelling lube over the cylinder .

[freakonaleash]

Tried a duplex load. I used 4.5gr of 5744 and 45grs of swiss 1.5 and a 270gr bullet. This is in a '76 uberti in 40 60. Group tightened way up and way less fouling. I'm going to still have a bullet mold made to carry more lube.

[freakonaleash]

Last target315023

[indian joe]

Last target315023

100yards? if you not happy with that ya should be !

[freakonaleash]

Only 50.

[indian joe]

Only 50.

still -- not so shabby ! - you'd head shot a rabbit 4 from 5 and earmarked him with the fifth.

this the style of boolits works good in my 76 (45/75 with straight black) can shoot a session (15 - 20shots) without a clean so long as we dont go too fast and get it hot - I proly shoot 6, give it couple minutes rest, blow tube it, then another 6

these are 45 cal 335 grain and 405 grain its a LEE 459-405 HB mold but modified (cliped the nose flat, lost the HB, and the lighter boolit is shortened one groove) the proportions of the lube grooves here is the trick
315097

bit of an optical illusion here despite lookin different calibres, both boolits out of the same mold blocks

[freakonaleash]

If I had a bullet that carried that much lube my problems would be over.

[indian joe]

If I had a bullet that carried that much lube my problems would be over.

that kinda was the intention ..........

in a 40 cal youre gonna need a custom mold I think - molds with decent grooves for blackpowder are scarce enough in the main sizes

[freakonaleash]

Yup. I have had ACCURATE molds cut for me in other calibers. Prices are really reasonable.

[freakonaleash]

It's really a waste of time using modern designed bullets with black powder. I have a couple antique Marlins in. 40 that I can use a .408 bullet from another mold that carries plenty of lube. Nice lube star at the muzzle and soft fouling in the barrel. I can easily get 5 accurate shots off with out cleaning with straight black powder.

[59sharps]

If you shooting a .429 try moose mold. I use it in a 1860 44-40. Great bullet.
https://moosemoulds.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/henry44-431-240.jpg

[jednorris]

I found out long ago that many bullet manufacturers are using lube that is designed for Smokeless and does not work well with B.P.

[Lead pot]

For a lever rifle deep GG are a waste of lube. A shallow wide groove a couple thousands deeper than the barrel groove will deliver more lube the the bore surface. The deep grooves will just throw the lube off when it clears the muzzle.
For my 95 Marlin or the 93 I use a bullet like the left one, but they are flat nosed shallow groove .010" deep and they get a knurl. I can empty the whole tube and reload and do it again. :D
The .44-40 gets the knurled FN.

[indian joe]

For a lever rifle deep GG are a waste of lube. A shallow wide groove a couple thousands deeper than the barrel groove will deliver more lube the the bore surface. The deep grooves will just throw the lube off when it clears the muzzle.
For my 95 Marlin or the 93 I use a bullet like the left one, but they are flat nosed shallow groove .010" deep and they get a knurl. I can empty the whole tube and reload and do it again. :D
The .44-40 gets the knurled FN.

That middle boolit looks like the lyman that my CBE is copied off
It works but nothing to spare - at 100 yards the LEE 5003R does much better fouling wise. But that thing gets unstable out at distance (400yards in a 20"twist + a little bit of wind upsets it)

Whats the logic with the 2 big knurled boolits is that to take up windage or more lube (or both)

[Lead pot]

Joe,

All three are the same bullet. Just knurled.
That bullet is a .44 Buffalo Arms mini groove money bullet. It is 1.495" long weighs 507 gr.
I used this bullet at the Creedmoor match in the 19 twist Shiloh .44-90BN and it shot well. I don't remember what went on on the first relay on the 900, I think this was when the sky fell down maybe?? but this bullet shot well but the small shallow narrow grooves just smeared the bore with lead so I knurled them and this solved the problem, but I quit using it and went back to the paper patch and it has the same profile.
I use it once in a while patched for the .45 calibers. It's a tight .446" unpatched for the .45's so I just seat it a little deeper unless I run the patched bullet through a push through sizing die to bore diameter.

Kurt


317322

[HWooldridge]

Joe,

All three are the same bullet. Just knurled.
That bullet is a .44 Buffalo Arms mini groove money bullet. It is 1.495" long weighs 507 gr.
I used this bullet at the Creedmoor match in the 19 twist Shiloh .44-90BN and it shot well. I don't remember what went on on the first relay on the 900, I think this was when the sky fell down maybe?? but this bullet shot well but the small shallow narrow grooves just smeared the bore with lead so I knurled them and this solved the problem, but I quit using it and went back to the paper patch and it has the same profile.
I use it once in a while patched for the .45 calibers. It's a tight .446" unpatched for the .45's so I just seat it a little deeper unless I run the patched bullet through a push through sizing die to bore diameter.

Kurt


317322

Kurt,

Are you knurling those between two plates or individually on a lathe?

[Lead pot]

I have a Corbin knurler I use.
The knurler on my lathe is not ideal even using the collet chuck to hold the bullet.
I also have used a double cut file but it does not hold the tolerances. It will raise the grain.(wider diameter)
Here is what a PP bullet knurled looks like fired without the patch, shot as a greaser.
You can increase the diameter depending on the size of the diamonds the triple roller has.
I used to swage a lot of bullets and used the knurled for the revolver bullets.


317323

[HWooldridge]

I was thinking about a plate knurl, where the two knurled plates slide parallel to each other and the bullet is trapped between - but the Corbin tool looks like it will work just as well. A lathe isn't really the right tool for the job but some whiz kid could probably cobble together something that would work.

[Lead pot]

:D I guess the use of a follower might do the trick :D
The file is the same principle as the plates.

[indian joe]

Joe,

All three are the same bullet. Just knurled.
That bullet is a .44 Buffalo Arms mini groove money bullet. It is 1.495" long weighs 507 gr.
I used this bullet at the Creedmoor match in the 19 twist Shiloh .44-90BN and it shot well. I don't remember what went on on the first relay on the 900, I think this was when the sky fell down maybe?? but this bullet shot well but the small shallow narrow grooves just smeared the bore with lead so I knurled them and this solved the problem, but I quit using it and went back to the paper patch and it has the same profile.
I use it once in a while patched for the .45 calibers. It's a tight .446" unpatched for the .45's so I just seat it a little deeper unless I run the patched bullet through a push through sizing die to bore diameter.

Kurt


317322

Interesting - thanks
I didnt look close enough - shoulda picked the smaller diameter (44 vs 45)
It does look very similar profile to the CBE 460 - 535 - PB that they recommend for Pedersoli 45 barrels