For Elmer and Skeeter fans

[Thumbcocker]

Boolit eye candyhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230607/f0c9be8b62c5a32a2d250c6c278453b9.jpg

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[Bazoo]

Great pic, thanks for sharing. What brand and number is the bullet?

[Thumbcocker]

It is a clone of the H&G 503. 3 equal driving bands like Elmer specified.

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[Tall]

Lyman Ideal 429421 cast bullet designed by Elmer Keith. It works!

[derek45]

My favorite bullet for 44sp and 44mag.

Keith knew his stuff

https://i.imgur.com/nQGypmJ.jpg

[44MAG#1]

I bet Mr. Keith could hit a Mule deer at 600 yards with that bullet with a 44 Magnum.

[Thumbcocker]

The 600 yard shot on the deer was with factory loads iirc. Brian Pearce did an article in handloader where he used a period correct model 29 and period ammo that had been stored in a basement. He hit a mule deer sized target at 600 yards. That said I agree that Elmer could have done it with his boolits and loads.

One if life's great joys is shooting at rocks on a hillside with a .44 at various ranges. The boom
followed by a "tick"sound never gets old.

[44MAG#1]

The 600 yard shot on the deer was with factory loads iirc. Brian Pearce did an article in handloader where he used a period correct model 29 and period ammo that had been stored in a basement. He hit a mule deer sized target at 600 yards. That said I agree that Elmer could have done it with his boolits and loads.

One if life's great joys is shooting at rocks on a hillside with a .44 at various ranges. The boom
followed by a "tick"sound never gets old.

You remember correctly. Very correctly.
I bet he could have hit that deer 3 out of 4 with that bullet.
Even with his 4 inch 44 Mag.

[Bazoo]

The 600 yard shot on the deer was with factory loads iirc. Brian Pearce did an article in handloader where he used a period correct model 29 and period ammo that had been stored in a basement. He hit a mule deer sized target at 600 yards. That said I agree that Elmer could have done it with his boolits and loads.

One if life's great joys is shooting at rocks on a hillside with a .44 at various ranges. The boom
followed by a "tick"sound never gets old.

I don't suppose you recall the issue number or year of that article?

[Bazoo]

My only "Keith" bullet is this RCBS 44-250-K. It does well for me in 44 special, I haven't tried it in 44 Magnum yet. The front driving band isn't the same height as the other two, but it has a nice square lube groove.

https://i.postimg.cc/pVkKV4m5/rcbs-44-250-k-100.jpg (https://postimg.cc/5jYXnPqf)

[Green Frog]

It is a clone of the H&G 503. 3 equal driving bands like Elmer specified.

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How does the H&G 503 differ from the original 429421 as designed by Keith? I’ve been told the later releases (like from Lyman) had rounded grease grooves, much to his displeasure
Froggie

[Thumbcocker]

From what I have read the 503 was the last one to be blessed by Elmer. 3 equal bands, square grease groove, and tapered crimp groove. I have 2 Lyman 429421 molds and neither of them have equal bands or a square grease groove.

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[44MAG#1]

From what I have read the 503 was the last one to be blessed by Elmer. 3 equal bands, square grease groove, and tapered crimp groove. I have 2 Lyman 429421 molds and neither of them have equal bands or a square grease groove.

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I have two different H&G 503 molds. Different bullets slightly.

[Don Purcell]

I have fired 250 grain Keith bullets from at least five different molds over the years and they all shot well, some a little better than others but all good. Back in the day before CRP we could shoot a mile in some areas over plowed bottom land. Shooting far enough you could fire your .44, lower the gun and wait for the bullet to hit. Really teaches you how to hold a sight picture and squeeze a trigger plus how good your loads are.

[376Steyr]

How does the H&G 503 differ from the original 429421 as designed by Keith? I’ve been told the later releases (like from Lyman) had rounded grease grooves, much to his displeasure
Froggie

Oh, my. For more than you want to know about "Keith" bullets, go to the sticky in "Molds-Maintenance and Design" https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?1954-quot-Real-quot-Keith-Bullets for 26 pages of kickin' and gougin' in the mud and the blood and the beer.

The short story: The 429421 as produced wasn't true to Elmer's "original" design. I remember reading Elmer's columns in "Guns and Ammo" magazine in the 1970's, and he regularly disparaged it for its skinny front band and rounded lube groove. He was much happier with the H&G 503 with its three equal-width bands and square grease groove.

[Bazoo]

I have two different H&G 503 molds. Different bullets slightly. I'd like to see them. For that matter, I'd like to have samples of them!

[HWooldridge]

SAECO made one that was close. I have a 2 cavity at home - was always a great shooter in both 44 special and mag. I'm not where I can look at it but seem to recall the first and second bands are slightly narrower than the base band.

[gc45]

Thumbcocker helped in getting my Ruger 5.5 inch Flat top 44 Spec up and running by sending me a few of his boolits from the 503 mold. I must say, with 7.5gr of Unique, his bullets fired more than acceptable groups, impressive really. Having found an old Lyman 429421 single cavity and settling on 7.3 grains, I get acceptable groups with that as well but not quite small nor as uniform as the 503 boolit groups.

[TomAM]

Can anyone produce any evidence that Elmer really specified equal length bands?

He specified a full DIAMETER front band, long enough to fill the chambers' ball seat, but never mentioned equal lengths.

[Catshooter]

Elmer didn't call it "length", he said width. As I recall. It's in his book "Sixguns", in the bullet chapter. He made it plain he wanted three equal lengths.

[ddixie884]

Can anyone produce any evidence that Elmer really specified equal length bands?

He specified a full DIAMETER front band, long enough to fill the chambers' ball seat, but never mentioned equal lengths.

He did indeed, specify equal Bands. Read his book, Sixguns.

[Don Purcell]

Elmer wanted and insisted on three equal width (length) bands on his desgns as he wanted the front band heavy enough to grab the rifling to reduce skidding as it hit the rifling. Elmer gave his blessing to the H&G 503 and that being said, the first H&G 503 I bought in 1979 had a narrow front band that was half the size of the base and middle band. Even at that it would routinely shoot palm size groups at 100 yards from a sitting position out of my 8 3/8 Model 29. Go figure.

[TomAM]

Your copy of Sixguns must be different from mine...

[TomAM]

Page 236 of Sixguns, Keith has photos of three of his designs from Saeco molds.
None of them have equal width bands.

That "requirement" is never mentioned.

[44MAG#1]

Page 236 of Sixguns, Keith has photos of three of his designs from Saeco molds.
None of them have equal width bands.

That "requirement" is never mentioned.

How do you explain page 286 of the Lyman Ideal Keith bullets with bands for all intents and purposes equal length bands?
This is a subject that has never and never will be satisfied and Answered to any great extent.
So why try?
Each mold maker will tweak and adjust measurements to satisfy his own ideas and manufacturing methods.
Stirring the pot so to speak.
Look at the 429421 CLOSELY on page 286 of "SIXGUNS" and tell me who makes one like it?
Look CLOSELY not just skim over the photo.

[JAC43]

Page 236 of Sixguns, Keith has photos of three of his designs from Saeco molds.
None of them have equal width bands.

That "requirement" is never mentioned.

February 1976 Guns and Ammo, in Keith's Gunnotes column.
https://i.postimg.cc/m2XnJd7f/Keith-Copy.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[44MAG#1]

February 1976 Guns and Ammo, in Keith's Gunnotes column.
https://i.postimg.cc/m2XnJd7f/Keith-Copy.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Again, none of this matters. The discussion, argument, debate, conversation, discourse, confabulation will never settle what is "A REAL KEITH BULLET".
Nothing has been settled yet after all these many years.
Never will be settled.

[Stick_man]

While I am just as interested in remaining "true" to the original Keith design done by the man himself, I realize the difference in performance between that and most of the current versions will be nearly indistinguishable to most shooters. I have 3 different "Keith" molds and all perform to a level that I could only describe as nothing short of spectacular. I would much rather spend my time shooting boolits from any one of the three molds than to waste my time arguing about which one is closer to the original design, but then I am by no means an absolute perfectionist and I don't carry an electron microscope in my back pocket either.

[TomAM]

Thank you, JAC43. Now I've finally seen it in writing.

[Frank V]

The Lyman 429421 has always done well for me!

[ddixie884]

Since I'm not the handgun shot Mr. Keith was I do what I think of as well with all of the close copies. The difference in the lubes makes the square groove less important. nearly all of the close copies have 95% of the qualities of the original. As far as the correct specs they are all confused in the argument. Just my thoughts on the subject........

[HWooldridge]

One can also get lost in nose profile and meplat size...I've seen those arguments rage for years.

[44MAG#1]

Since I'm not the handgun shot Mr. Keith was I do what I think of as well with all of the close copies. The difference in the lubes makes the square groove less important. nearly all of the close copies have 95% of the qualities of the original. As far as the correct specs they are all confused in the argument. Just my thoughts on the subject........

Just like I said. It will never be settled. Every mold maker add his tweaks and mods according to his version of what the "KEITH" bullet is or should be.
But they still call it a "KEITH". Not a modified "KEITH" or "my version of the "KEITH".

[Tall]

The Lyman 429421 has always done well for me!
Me too.

[Larry Gibson]

Agree with most here, finding the "real" Keith 44 bullet is probably going to happen about as soon as I discover oil in my back yard. Having read a lot of Keith's writing [books, articles, etc.] he used a variety of 240 - 255 gr bullets. in some articles he praised the Lyman 429421 and in others expressed a disdain for it.......same with a couple other designs. A lot of his shooting was done with bullets cast for him by others. Pointing to one paragraph in one book as "gospel" is akin to quoting a passage from the Bible. It's often not too difficult to soon find another passage that seems to contradict the first. We must also remember that Keith was always developing new bullets and cartridges that he deemed to be "better".

I've been shooting 429421s cast from several Lyman moulds since I was 20 years old. All of them shot very well in numerous 44 firearms. Never found a 44 SPL or 44 Magnum revolver, SS or rifle that didn't like the 429421. My current Lyman 429421 mould is a Lyman 4 cavity and it casts excellent bullets. I also have been using an RCBS 44-250-KT for I got when I returned from Iraq and got a 50th Anniversary BHFT 44 Magnum. It also cast excellent bullets which shoot superbly in all my 44s.

Since the advent of "modern" lubes with the NRA 50/50 formula back in the '50s the need for the large square lube groove has been negated. The round grooves of the Lyman 429421 and the RCBS "Keith" bullets serve just as well. Of course I also use numerous other 44 cast bullets but I consider the 429421 as my "mainstay" go to cast bullet.