RED Hawk 44 Mag

[marshall623]

I've got my Dad's 44 Red Hawk I think early production when they first come out . I'm going to start casting and loading for it . The cylinder throats all are .432" , inside tool on calibers fit in snug . The bore I just slugged and it's. 4295" . I'm looking at a 43-250H from Accurate . I'm going with a .431 size die , see how that shoots or if I need to bump it up to 432" . Does anyone have any experience with this design or any suggestions of one that would work better . I'm will do some plinking and target shooting , the main intent is deer and black bear .
Thanks in advance for any input or advise .
Tim

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[Sam Sackett]

Try it at 431. You are larger than bore size, so should be OK. Your gun will tell you if it like them. If you get leading, maybe in the forcing cone, you will need to go a little larger or use a softer alloy.

Let the gun be your guide….
Sam Sackett

[tja6435]

I run .432 in my Redhawk with no lead fouling and good accuracy. Downside is my Super Blackhawk won’t chamber a .432”, but will chamber .431

[243winxb]

My cylinder& groove same. .430" diameter bullets works best. 15 bhn. https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/44-magnum-hard-alloy-25-yards.3117/full

[45DUDE]

My SRH measures .432 like yours. I took a Lee mold and reamed the base to .436 down to the first lube groove and now I can size to .432 and problem solved by buying a .436 drill bit and not spending any more money. J. bullets do ok.

[44MAG#1]

I would size to .430".
I would try them to see how they shoot.
If all your shooting will be from the sandbagged bench and are only concerned with wallet group accuracy worry more about sizing diameter.
Unless you are the type shooter that will amaze an NRA High Master Class Bullseye shooter and make them green with envy, when you shoot offhand, worry far less about it.
Some shooters are benchrest bound.

[Dom]

I size my bullets for my RedHawks at .530. Works perfect My bore's like yours at.429.

[contender1]

Uhh Dom,, I hope it was a finger slip,, meaning you should have been typing .430,, not .530.

[murf205]

Marshall, if you are going to order a mold from Accurate, order it in a .431 so it will drop at .433 since they usually drop .002 larger than cavity size. Then you can size it to whatever you need. My best experience is to size to the cylinder throat diameter or no more than .001 smaller but NEVER smaller than barrel dia and best to have at least .001 larger than barrel to seal the hot gas. Sam's advice is spot on, let the gun tell you what it wants. Good luck.
BTW, that 250-H looks like a great choice.

[RickinTN]

Marshall, if you are going to order a mold from Accurate, order it in a .431 so it will drop at .433 since they usually drop .002 larger than cavity size. Then you can size it to whatever you need. My best experience is to size to the cylinder throat diameter or no more than .001 smaller but NEVER smaller than barrel dia and best to have at least .001 larger than barrel to seal the hot gas. Sam's advice is spot on, let the gun tell you what it wants. Good luck.
BTW, that 250-H looks like a great choice.

My experience with Accurate molds hasn't been like this. Mine drop on the money or maybe .0005" larger. I would order it at .432". Just my advice.
Good Luck,
Rick

[murf205]

Either way, just remember getting it a bit larger and sizing to fit is a lot easier than having one too small. Fit is king.

[26Charlie]

My .44 Mag Redhawk was one of the first production, and I used .429 various CB’s, mostly 429421 Lyman, with 22.5 gr H-110. Could reliably explode a beer can at 40 yards. Never measured or worried about throat size etc., it all just worked great.
I gave it to my son-in-law when he married my older daughter 30 years ago: told him if he didn’t stay married he had to give it back. That worked great too.

[44MAG#1]

I have shot far more cast 44 bullets sized with a .429" size die than any other.

[243winxb]

Harder alloys have more spring back after sizing. A marked 429 die can make .4295" or close to .430" bullets.

Always check as cast diameter as soon as a few bullets cool. Check diameter after sizing, again.

[44MAG#1]

Harder alloys have more spring back after sizing. A marked 429 die can make .4295" or close to .430" bullets.

Always check as cast diameter as soon as a few bullets cool. Check diameter after sizing, again.

I've known that since I started cast by experimenting. Linotype springs back quite well in a .429" die.
Even Lyman #2 does some.

[marshall623]

Thanks to everyone for the replies , they have been very helpful . Tom has my order and I still have to get a sizer die yet , I'm still pondering on that .

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[Bigslug]

The 250H is pretty much an LBT LFN design that has nothing to prove - good choice. I was very close to asking Tom for a tumble lube version of that because I'm all about mass-production, but ended up creating the 255D with a slightly smaller meplat because I thought I might tinker with longer range work. For your stated intent, I think you're golden.

If you order the mold to drop between .432 and .433, you should be able to get away with sizing to as small as .430, but it's hard to make them bigger.

My attitude from watching a lot of "tweaked to the Nth degree" razor's edge ammo and equipment fail in competitions is that I'd rather have "accurate enough, but works" over "supremely accurate, but doesn't" any day of the week. For revolver ammo, that means I want to be sure of my chamber measurements and that neither excessive bullet diameter or improper roll crimp are anywhere close to preventing a round from plunking into the cylinder. If the front band of your bullet is far enough back from the .432" diameter of the chamber throat to where a little alloy springback toward .433 won't cause grief, party on with the snug fit.

[Larry Gibson]

I have shot far more cast 44 bullets sized with a .429" size die than any other.

Me too. Back in the day when mu eyes were good and my hands steady I could put a cylinder full of 429421 bullets cast of COWW, sized .429 in a 450 and lubed with Javelina loaded over 22 gr 2400 or 23 gr H4227 into right at 1" at 25 yards from a prone supported position. That was out of several M29s, Ruger BHs and even my Hawes Western Marshal. Back then I had no idea what the throats of the cylinders measured. Shot quite a few commercial cast at .429 also with close to equal results.

Since I have become gun rag and internet "educated" on the matter I have learned the errors of my previous ways. I measured, slugged and pin gauge the throats because "fit is king" even getting moulds that cast bullets of .434 so I could size them to fit the cylinder throats. I found, for me anyways, shoving a bullet more than .002 over the .429 groove size of the 44 barrels did nothing to enhance accuracy. Actually .003 over was often detrimental to accuracy. I currently have three 44 Magnum revolvers and a 44 Magnum Contender barrel. I size my cast bullets at .429/.430 because they will chamber in the tight throated Colt Anaconda and are just as accurate, if not more so, than bullets sized larger to "fit" the cylinder throats.

BTW, with Javelina, Tamarack or Lars45 BAC or 50/50 lubes there is no leading with the "undersize" bullets.

[marshall623]

Thanks ,
All good info

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[murf205]

If "fit aint king" it at least queen and I found that out by scrubbing lead out of a 629 with tight throats. On the other hand I have got some good results from my S&W 44 Hand Ejector by using .430 boolits with .432 throats so the best plan is to shoot first and check the results. As far as fit, with Lee push through sizers dies, you can use the split dowel and fine grit to open them up another .001 pretty easily as they are relatively soft.

[44MAG#1]

Always, always, always, always let the target be the Arbiter on ones development and testing.
Not just one target but a confirmation with several because luck does happen.
Then stand up and shoot after the Arbiter has passed his final judgement.

[TurnipEaterDown]

The comment by Larry interests me on several aspects, as I have seen the same about fit of bullet to throat on my own 44.

I have one 44 SBH revolver, but with two Ruger cylinders that fit (used to have 3 factory gun cylinders that all fit, result of leftovers from converted revolvers, but sold one).

The 2 cylinders I have remaining measure the same for the 5 "good" throats with the same set of pin gauges, and the "bad" (or larger) throats on each cylinder are close with one being just slightly larger. Original SBH cylinder: 5 @ 0.431", 1 @ 0.432"+, 2 nd position Left of "S". Spare Bisley cyl: 5 @ 0.431", 1 @ 0.432"+ (Slightly looser than SBH), 3rd position Right of "S".

With the SBH cylinder installed in the gun I had groups w/ 0.430" bullets about 60% of the spread of 0.431" bullets (12 shots or 2 full cylinders for group @ 50 yd).
With the Bisley cylinder installed in the gun, it shoots groups w/ 0.430" bullets very slightly smaller and likely statistically about the same spread as 0.431" bullets (12 shots or 2 full cylinders for group @ 50 yd).
The groups with the Bisley cylinder installed are overall larger than with the SBH cylinder installed on the gun, with either bullet size.

The bullet used for evaluation didn't challenge shooter fatigue: 200 gr ~ 950 fps.

Obviously there are other things that affect accuracy other than bullet fit to throat, bore & grove diameter, muzzle perpendicularity, indexing of the cylinder throat centerline to bore/forcing cone C-L, etc.
But my small test on my own gun controlled all of this outside of cylinder.

I have to think that the individual chamber diameter probably matters (I don't have tools to measure mine), and I suspect that the taper from chamber to throat and the condition of that likely matters as well (as some have pointed out, this taper is really a sizing die for bullets bigger than throat).
I also strongly believe that indexing of the centerlines (chamber/throat to Bore/forcing cone) matters a lot, and I really don't have any tooling that would even hint at that. Part of the control of that is pawl to pawl receiving groove on cylinder fit, and positional machining of that groove or pocket on the cylinder.

One thing I did find in my own loading set up:
If using bullets larger that 0.430" I can get drag and damage on the front band of cast bullets from the roll crimp feature in my seating die.
This may be mucking up bullet for band overall diameter and uniformity of form ("circularity"?).
So, when using larger bullets for assessing group size results, it is probably useful to check for this.

So, there are other things at play here that may trump raw fit of bullet OD to throat ID.


On the offset of centerlines from cylinder/throat to bore/forcing cone: When using jacketed bullets where we rarely hear of fit fit fit, it may actually be desirable w/ jacketed bullets to have a somewhat loose fit of bullet to throat. This would tend to lessen the tendency of the bullet being overconstrained when passing through the cylinder gap and having body OD trying to be controlled by both barrel and cylinder.
No one comments on gas cutting of jacketed bullets, as there is no exposed lead.
I do know from recovering lots of 44 bullets, and even finding some 300 Noslers w/ cupped bases after firing, that sufficient pressure exists to obturate a jacketed pistol bullet in this pressure range of cartridge. Shouldn't be a surprise, as I made noses of many 44 cal 300 Noslers take on the shape of the seating dies when loading over heavily compressed W296, and it wasn't just the exposed lead that was reformed.

[marshall623]

I have a update , look what was in the mailbox today . I'll have to get it ready and cast some this weekend . https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230623/eaeaacd10070032e41679d9d3b2b53b4.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230623/a1646b8fbf55e67ffcecad0151c24c63.jpg

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[murf205]

Marshall, I looked long and hard at that mold and you might just have the best all around 44 boolit mold. Please give us some pics when you pour these boolits. I just shot my SRH yesterday with .431 Lyman 429421's ahead of 16.7 gr of 2400 and it performed boringly accurate. It is also a .432 gun with a .4295 groove diameter. I had some .430 of the same load and it shot the same with 'nary a trace of lead. 30 rounds w/conventional lube, no lead on the patch either when I got home. These big guns love cast.

[marshall623]

I got around to pouring some this evening , just a little bit to figure what it likes but once we got there , this is one sweet mold . I picked up a couple different diameters but I believe it was pot temp fluctuations. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230623/bda51167358913c96f15ace446e45873.jpg

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[murf205]

Keep us posted on how that Ruger likes this boolit. Good looking mold and boolit.

[marshall623]

Well made it to the range this afternoon , these are the first cast to go down the barrel of this gun . These were at 25yd with my wrist supported . I run 34 rds through it all with AA#9 16.5 gr - 18.0 gr . The barrel just had some Grey haze , no visible leading . 17.5 grs the group was opening up . The first shots at 16.5gr , I had to get the sights adjusted. I didn't realize that the wind wa s gently swinging my target like a pendulum till 1/2 way through the 17 gr group . Im guessing thats where the vertical stringing came from .https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230717/309094f9f01a1edc8d1a95e9b7ff3073.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230717/8c63dabce33a4be285f1fd15d2d4e337.jpg

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[contender1]

You might try a different way of shooting. The "just my wrist supported" isn't the best way to shoot.
If from a bench, placing the gun in a cradle of the shooting bag, with the frame cradled,, (not the barrel,) and placing your hands on a firm, yet padded rest, under the gun, can allow it to recoil more naturally, and will likely tighten up your groups.