Flaring cases for cast boolits

[Mike Langlois]

So I am studying, melting and reloading probably faster than I should. A question about flaring for cast boolits has intruded on my consciousness. Whilst preparing my first S&W 460 loads with Cast Boolits, I did notice that these boolits got shaved worse during seating, unlike the jacketed bullets I normally load. I do pay attention and I caught this on the first load and increased the flare on all the cases. While reading "From Ingot to Target: A Cast Bullet Guide for Handgunners" I noticed that it specifically stated that I should not be able to feel the Lube Grooves while moving the boolit in and out of the case by hand. I just wanted to check in on this one and get some input from the community. I normally use a minimal flare to seat Plated Boat Tail Rifle bullets and flaring to get a bullet nearly loose in the case seems a bit excessive.
Manic Mike

[44MAG#1]

You flare enough to prevent shaving the bullets. What else could you do? That is what I do and have never had a problem. There will be many who will answer. Still you will need to flare enough to prevent shaving.

[Randy Bohannon]

Buffalo Arms Expanding Dies, actually expand the brass and not “flare” the case mouth. The flaring die in die sets are for jacketed bullets that only need minimal flaring since they are smaller than what is needed for cast bullets.

[Mike Langlois]

I did flare the cases enough to stop any shaving, but an expanding die seems to make more sense than a flaring die for these new boolits I have discovered. The responses are really appreciated, I'm researching as fast as I can and it seems that I have more and more questions!
Manic Mike

[Sig]

Are you seating & crimping in separate steps? I find I can get away with seating & crimping in the same step with jacketed but not with cast.

[Shopdog]

Mike,look at a Lyman M die. Not saying buy/use it..... saying,go study up on it. NOE makes a similar(IIRC) setup.

It may help you visualize,and possibly move your process's towards a positive direction.

"Normally"... as the cast bullet gets longer/skinnier, the need to have the "straight" part of the case neck,which the two diameter M die produces.... increases. So,short squat'y handgun bullets aren't as sensitive in this area. Cast represents challenges in the seating op because of their very sticky,grabby nature. If a long skinny bullet isn't started dang near perfectly inline with case.... even a well fitted seater stem,it hangs onto the stem's guidance and results in bad run out. This isn't nearly as big of a concern with handgun ammo. So,even though your ? isn't about,long/skinny bullets... or M dies. It can be helpful to understand some of the logic involved with selecting tools and techniques. Good luck with your project.

[Czech_too]

[SIZE=3]When you say that you are flaring the brass, what kind of die are you using? A Lee universal, Lyman 'M', NOE expander?
With cast bullets, since they are larger in diameter than jacketed, the case neck has to be opened up enough to that the bullet isn't shaved upon seating, as you've experienced. Personally, I prefer to use the NOE expander plugs along with the Lee universal die body. I do have some Lyman 'M' dies though. I'm not familiar with the .460 S&W but see that it takes a jacketed bullet of .452 diameter. Depending on what you're sizing the cast at I would look into using the appropriate expander plug.
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/product-category/bullet-casting-reloading/expanders/expander-plug-pistol/page/2/
You want the one portion of the plug to expand the brass to the necessary size. You have to have tension here so that would be slightly smaller than the bullet diameter.
The other part of the plug opens up the case mouth larger to eliminate the shaving.SIZE]

[georgerkahn]

I pretty much (99.999%) concur with prior seven posts, and will add a related note. To wit, in my Bullseye shooting years I reloaded a zillion or so .38 S&W Specials, and -- to insure no bullet shaving of my cast bullets while also making sure they were seated "straight" -- I had the flare such that it was just under the maximum flare allowed by die. The process was great, BUT it really shortened brass life. The "bending back and forth" from the flaring for seating to the crimping for bullet retention really had a toll, again, on case life. Kind of a "danged if you do, danged if you don't" ;). Just something you may wish to add to your thoughts....
geo

[44MAG#1]

I use Hornady dies, RCBS dies and Lyman dies and Lee dies.
Unless something is wrong with the expanding/flaring die you should be able to load cast with any of them
Many answers but one simple answer. Flare as much as needed to seat cast without scraping the bullet
Seat, crimp and go shoot.
Simple

[ascast]

Case length can be an issue. A simple flaring tool may work fine but if some cases are shorter they wont get enough flare. So you set to short cases and now get over flare and chambering issues.
I think the Lyman M style is better in that it steps out the size in a pocket, if you will. It can be adjusted to accommodate long, short whatever with no over flaring and subsequent feeding problems.

[Randy Bohannon]

Not true at all.

I use Hornady dies, RCBS dies and Lyman dies and Lee dies.
Unless something is wrong with the expanding/flaring die you should be able to load cast with any of them

[44MAG#1]

Not true at all.

I use Hornady dies, RCBS dies and Lyman dies and Lee dies.
Unless something is wrong with the expanding/flaring die you should be able to load cast with any of them

What is not true. I use cast with all of those dies. Loading for 52 years. Used cast long, long, long before I started casting. Tell me where I am wrong.

[Dusty Bannister]

While reading "From Ingot to Target: A Cast Bullet Guide for Handgunners" I noticed that it specifically stated that I should not be able to feel the Lube Grooves while moving the boolit in and out of the case by hand.
--------
I suspect that what is meant is that when seating the bullet in the case, you should feel a smooth entry, not a bumpy entry because the case mouth is hitting the edge of a lube groove.


I normally use a minimal flare to seat Plated Boat Tail Rifle bullets and flaring to get a bullet nearly loose in the case seems a bit excessive.
--------------
Jacketed bullets are different, rifle bullets are different. Cast bullets are a whole different set of needs. Sometimes a minimal flare on cast bullets will work, but if you fail to start the bullet square or if it tilts a little you will get sheared drive bands. Early on, it seemed that the expander plug had too abrupt a flare angle. Exacerbated by case length variations. This will continue to be an issue with mixed cases and why many will prefer to match head stamps. Not a for sure thing, but likely closer than random case length. The expander plug for many pistol calibers is intended for the smaller diameter of the jacketed bullets. If you are using cast bullets larger than the standard jacketed bullet, you may want to consider a plug specific to the diameter of the bullet, but small enough to still have neck tension. Do not jam the expander plug as far as it will go into the case as that will result in a badly deformed case and the bullet will have no tension.

Jacketed bullets are hard shelled and smooth so will generally seat with less issue. Cast bullets are just not the same so the rules change and you need to adapt to the different practices. Good luck, you will get there, just stay patient.

[pworley1]

When just using just a flaring die you will be able to seat your bullets without shaving any lead, but if you use the correct diameter m-type die you will also be able to seat your bullets without any shaving and also without any sizing down of your bullets by forcing them into an under size case.

[243winxb]

The S&W 460 needs lots of neck tension/bullet hold. Forget this-
From Ingot to Target

The outside diameter of the case should expand .002" "minimum", after bullet seating, for enough neck tension.

Shaving lead- Use a Lyman M expander die. Dies are designed for jacketed bullet diameter. When a larger diameter cast bullet is used, the seat crimp die may remove the case bell to soon. This results in lead shaving. At times, the only fix is modifing the seating dies inside diameter, so die does not remove the bell to soon.

The newer RCBS pistol die sets seem to come with an M type expander.

[44MAG#1]

Flare the case enough to keep from scraping the bullet. Take some loads out to the range and let the target be the arbiter of the results.
Again I have loaded from the 38 Special to the 500 S&W.
45/70 to 458 Win and the 458 Lott.
Simple things first. Until it is proven the simple things are wrong.

[dtknowles]

I think some measuring is needed and some also just for info.

Also, flare just enough to not shave but no more or you will have short brass life or need to do frequent annealing.

Important measurements. I mean measurements not what is marked on the dies or boxes.

Bullet diameter.
Expander plug diameter.
Expanded but not flared case ID (Inside Diameter) could be OD (Outside diameter) minus 2x Wall thickness.

Too much mismatch in these measurements will cause issues. Case ID should be 0.001" to 0.002" smaller than bullet diameter.

Info only measurements

Sized case ID could be OD minus 2x Wall thickness.
Fired case ID/OD
Cylinder throat ID

This does not make a difference in your current issue but is important for full understanding on dies, gun, ammo, accuracy and brass life.

How hard are your bullets and are they gas checked. 460 can be a hot cartridge and need hard bullets/gas checks if loaded hot but softer bullets if loaded mild.
Hot loads need a stiff crimp, mild loads with soft bullets should not be crimped.
Bullets should not be loose in the case.

Does the seating stem match the bullet shape? Getting the bullet started straight when seating is important, and the wrong shape seating stem will make this hard.

Some setups have a lot of play/wobble when seating bullets. The case holder is often not tight, and the seating die body might not be a close fit to the case. When this is the situation then nothing is keeping things aligned when the bullet is being seated except the fit of the bullet base in the case mouth.

I hate to have to do this as it breaks the first rule about not flaring the case mouth more than necessary but if you flare the case mouth so it drags a little in the seating die it will keep the case from tilting when seating the bullet.

Tim

[405grain]

I use a Lee universal expander to flare the mouths on all my cases. This flare should only be enough that 1/2 the length of a gas check will enter the case mouth. This will be enough to prevent shaving lead on both rifle and pistol cast loads. You can use a Lyman M die, or even the case mouth expanding die (on 3 die sets) to do this as well. There should be at least .002" of neck tension while seating the bullet into the case. (This means that the inside diameter of the case neck should be at least .002" smaller in diameter than the diameter of the bullet) A cartridge can have more neck tension than this, so long as it's reasonable, but consistency in that all the cases have the same tension is important for accuracy.

There are two other things to consider while on this topic: deburring the case mouth, and crimping the case mouth. Many brand new cases have a rather sharp edge to the opening of the case mouth. I've had sharp edged cases shave material from even jacketed bullets while seating the projectile. This is easily prevented by gently removing this sharp edge with a case deburring tool. There's an inexpensive one listed on Amazon under the title "Reloading Chamfer Deburring Tool" (the actual https link is like a whole page long, so I won't attach it here) It only takes about 3 quick & light twists of the wrist to put a tiny bevel on the inside of the case mouth.

The next thing to consider is crimping. When you shave lead off the side of a bullet it destroys it's accuracy potential. Also, if it's a powder coated bullet, shaving lead also removes a section of the powder coat. It is common practice when loading jacketed bullets to have the seating die set so that it seats and crimps the bullet in one stroke. This usually works fine with jacketed bullets, but with cast bullets can cause the case mouth to shave off a ring of lead. Because of the mechanics involved, the bullet is still being pushed down into the case as the mouth of the case comes into contact with the crimping shoulder inside the die. Sometimes this can cause the rim of the case mouth to bite into the bullet before the mouth reaches the bullet's crimping groove, which will shave off lead. The answer to this problem is to do the seating and crimping as two separate operations. First, back the seating die off enough that the crimping shoulder doesn't contact the mouth of the case. Then seat all the bullets into their case normally. After the bullets have been seated back the seating stem out so that it can't contact the bullet. Then screw in the die body until the die is putting a good crimp on your cases, and then run all your cartridges back through the die. This should give you finished cartridges that are seated and crimped properly, and are free of shaved lead.

Note: It is important to have a good roll crimp on revolver cartridges. Under recoil your pistol will act like an inertia bullet puller and will try to extract the bullets from the cases of the cartridges in the cylinder. If you don't have a good crimp, after a few shots the nose of the bullets might start projecting out from the cylinder face. If this happens, the bullet noses will hit against the frame preventing the cylinder from rotating. This is an extra strength pain in a single action, because if you can't rotate the cylinder you're not able to empty the gun without removing the entire cylinder from the gun. All this drama can be avoided by having a decent crimp on your ammo (semi-autos & taper crimps are a whole other can of worms)

[TD1886]

Where you are wrong saying that all brand dies will expand and flare the case is wrong. Simple put rifle dies do expand the case neck, they don't flare the mouth. Okay, first off all your cases SHOULD be the same correct length. Next you should expand your necks (area where the bullet will be seated) according to the size of the cast bullets you're using. Not sized as for jacketed. I'm going to tell you what is wrong with the Lyman M expander. It excessively works the case mouth and if you're crimping it's harder to crimp in as well as if the case mouth was just flared. That goes for any dies that copy Lyman. In my opinion the best exander/flare die is the RCBS. I know many will disagree.

[Bazoo]

For plain based cast bullets, you want the expander to be .002 smaller than the bullets you intend to use. Unless very hard bullets are used, the brass will swage down the base of the bullet with any smaller of an expander. This can cause inaccuracy and leading, especially if the entire base driving band is reduced in diameter.

For jacketed bullets, a smaller expander is okay since they cannot be swaged down by the brass.

Likewise, if you use a gas checked bullet, you can get away with a smaller expander because the gas check resists being swaged by the force of the brass case pressing against it from all sides. I use a lee 432-265-RF that is longer than any expander I have, that falls into this category. It shoots darn good though.


An M die or stepped expander has a short step just before the flared portion and creates a slight step inside the case about 1/10" tall. This step is generally .002 larger than the intended bullet diameter to be used.

Stepped expanders make seating bullets easier as they create a sort of funnel at the top of the case. When placed in the case, the bullet sets on a small ledge, keeping it aligned perfectly for the seating stem. They work well for not only cast bullets but for plain based jacketed bullets as well.

[TD1886]

For plain based cast bullets, you want the expander to be .002 smaller than the bullets you intend to use. Unless very hard bullets are used, the brass will swage down the base of the bullet with any smaller of an expander. This can cause inaccuracy and leading, especially if the entire base driving band is reduced in diameter.

For jacketed bullets, a smaller expander is okay since they cannot be swaged down by the brass.

Likewise, if you use a gas checked bullet, you can get away with a smaller expander because the gas check resists being swaged by the force of the brass case pressing against it from all sides. I use a lee 432-265-RF that is longer than any expander I have, that falls into this category. It shoots darn good though.


An M die or stepped expander has a short step just before the flared portion and creates a slight step inside the case about 1/10" tall. This step is generally .002 larger than the intended bullet diameter to be used.

Stepped expanders make seating bullets easier as they create a sort of funnel at the top of the case. When placed in the case, the bullet sets on a small ledge, keeping it aligned perfectly for the seating stem. They work well for not only cast bullets but for plain based jacketed bullets as well.

....and you said the key words there, Stepped expanders make seating the easier as they create a sort of funnel at the top of the case.

That is what lures and fools cast reloaders into thinking that M die is the holy grail and it really is not for the reasons I've explained. Hey when loading jacketed rifle bullets I love boat tail bullets as they set in the case mouths nice after you charged the case with powder. Or look at the sides divided over bevel base cast pistol/revolver bullets. Everyone is always looking for the easiest way out with necessarilly isn't the best way. Sorry for the rant, but the myth that the M die is the best must be stopped!

[mdi]

Just my experience; I reloaded my cast bullets for many years before I got an expander (Lyman M die). I just flared the case mouth. I used common flaring/powder through dies, home made tapered brass rods, chisel heads even 30-06 dases and a few other things to put a flare in a case mouth. My BHN ran from 10 to about 15 depending on caliber and use, and I rarely seated any crooked, shaved any nor swaged down any of my cast bullets. I have told newer casters to use as much flare as needed now, and worry about case life later and the flare is removed by the crimp die.

Seems like today the forums are recommending more and more complicated methods and more tools and more warnings to a new caster that complicate the whole process. I'm a K.I.S.S. kinda guy and only been casting since 1990 and some of my guns have not seen a jacketed bullet as long as they have been in my possession...

Eazy does it.

[justindad]

Measure your boolits, seat them in your brass, pulls the boolits out, then remeasure. If the measured diameter has shrunken and is now smaller than what is ideal for your setup, then you need a bigger expander. I imagine you’re shooting some pretty hard lead out of the 460, so you might not need an expander.

[TD1886]

I use RCBS expanders that also flare (I make many myself on my lathe) and expand around 1 1/2 thousands under my cast bullet size as mentioned cast bullets, especially the softer alloys, are delicate and the case mouth can actually size them down. The bullet diamter plays an important role when it's traversing from the case mouth into the chamber throat and leade, which is important to centering the bullet in the bore.

[44MAG#1]

While all comments from the simple things to the complicated is great advice.
Try the simple things first and let the target be the arbiter of the results unless one just wants to do the more complicated just to feel good about what they do.
Occams Razor then proceed from there.

[jimb16]

When I flare the case mouth, I flare only enough that the flat base barely clears the inside edge of the case mouth and goes in to a depth of 1-2 hundredths. That is normally sufficient to allow the bullet to seat without shaving any lead. It also allows for a slight roll crimp without shaving. It has worked for me for the past 53 years and I'm not going to change now. Plain base bullets are all I shoot and I have no problems with bulged crimps or bullet movement due to recoil, not even in my lever actions.

[44MAG#1]

Glad to see someone that likes simple.

[TD1886]

Glad to see someone that likes simple.

Here's simple for you. Size your case, expand/flare it with RCBS expander, prime it, charge it with powder, seat bullet....viola your finished.

[44MAG#1]

Here's simple for you. Size your case, expand/flare it with RCBS expander, prime it, charge it with powder, seat bullet....viola your finished.

That is simple. I've used RCBS dies for many years.
Occams Razor.
Also have Hornady dies that work splendidly and Lee with no problems. Also Lyman.
Simple is as simple does.