30-30 bullet oal ?

[ericg]

To start I hope this is in the right spot. I'm trying to load for my marlin 336 30-30 and im having issues with the oal of the bullet and not being able to close the lever. I'm using winchester brass trimmed to 2.029. bullets are lyman 311291 cast of wheel weights. and oal of 2.550 will not close the lever. I tried seating the bullet deeper and the only way it closes is to get the bullet oal down to 2.380. I'm just not sure if this would be safe to shoot or not? I did try to force the lever closed with the 2.550 round and it wasn't a good idea. I'm ordering a new lever. lesson learned. does anyone have any ideas or input on my situation or atleast tell me what I'm doing wrong. thanks I took a photo of the round I forced in

[Fitz]

Looks like the nose of the bullet is too big buy the engraving of the riflings marks .

[ericg]

I forgot to mention I did slug the barrell at .308 and the bullets are sized at .310 .

[Rockingkj]

Hornady lists the max overall length of a loaded cartridge at 2.550, that does not mean the loaded round has to be that. With that bullet seated as you pictured ,you’re way too long. Seat deeper just off the lands “lands is the groves you see on the bullet”. That should be a 170 gr bullet and suitable for 30-30. I am sure there will be additional advice for you here. I would expect your seating and crimp would be at that 1st grove at the nose of the bullet.

[ericg]

so I have searched and the minimum for coal is 2.450. would it be safe to shoot them at the 2.380 length.

[Rockingkj]

I just measured factory (Hornady) loaded rounds and they are 2.380 length. Measured some hand loaded with similar to your bullet profile j-word bullets and overall length was also 2.380.

[RickinTN]

Cartridge Overall length has nothing to do with it. The nose of your bullet is larger than your rifle's bore. Thats evident from "reading" the bullet.
Good Luck!
Rick

[D.Bullets]

Will the action close on a factory round? Personaly I would take it back and see if the chamber was cut correctly. Sounds like it was NOT.

So you are saying 2.380 is the bullets Jam point. That is outside of SAAMI specs.Specs are on line. Shortest OAL is 2.450 or you start changing Pressures to much.

http://www.castpics.net/subsite/SAAMI/default.html Page 57
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[Rockingkj]

Cartridge Overall length has nothing to do with it. The nose of your bullet is larger than your rifle's bore. Thats evident from "reading" the bullet.
Good Luck!
Rick

I believe the ring we see on the nose of the bullet is caused by the seater. Bet that was there before the round was attempted to be chambered.

[ulav8r]

Bought my Glenfield #30 in 1974 from a coworker. It was 2-3 years old. When I loaded Lee 150 grain bullets to the crimping groove the action would not close and the rifling marks on the bullet extended to within 1/8 inch of the brass. Took it in to CST and one of the upperclassmen re-cut the throat so the bullet no longer jammed into the rifling and loaded rounds would eject easily. One of the instructors explained that marlins usually had very short throats, they worked well with jacketed bullets but seldom with cast.

[ericg]

I have had this gun for over 15 years. always shot jacketed bullets threw it. rockingkj is correct the ring is from the seating from my rcbs dies.

[Rockingkj]

The profile of the bullet is pretty straight sided so engaging the lands closer to the tip. Short of seating deeper only other option is to get a different bullet with more curve to the profile of course still with round nose since it’s being used in a leaver gun.

[metricmonkeywrench]

So I will go a different direction rather than blaming the gun. I also have a JM 336. According to the Lyman Manuals the OAL for the -291 should be 2.521 which puts you over .030 to start with.

I had a similar issue with the -291's and the culprit turned out to be either in the sizing or loading step along with the chosen lead. I was working with some softer lead and only size/lube what I intend to load/shoot so there was no way to ID the real culprit. Problem place one- During sizing i may have been a bit to aggressive on the sizer or working with some cold lube while seating the gas check and bumped the nose (squished the top) of the bullet a bit or Problem place 2- I did not initially at first have the 31L M die to expand the case to accept a .311 sized bullet which took more force then "normal" to seat the bullet (your evidence if the seat die making a ring on the bullet) may also be bumping the nose of the bullet during seating. Once I got a heater under the 450 with the lyman 311 size die and added the 31L (sizes to .310) M die all my diameter issues seemed to go away in my rifle.

Measure the bullet diameter below the ogive as cast (allow a couple days after casting for the alloy to settle) then measure after sizing and finally after loading to see if there is any change and if you have nay bad actors in your process.

[ericg]

thank you to all that has responded and after reading everyone's input I checked a cast boolit before sizing and after sizing and the bullet is gaining .002-.004 in size at the tip. so should I try a different alloy or should I try a different boolit mold

[Rockingkj]

Might try a Lee size die. That die goes in your reloading press and is pushed thru the die by the base. Additionaly might consider a slightly larger expander. Looks like you’re using quite a bit of force to seat the bullet. RCBS “cowboy” dies have a larger expander for cast bullets.

[metricmonkeywrench]

thank you to all that has responded and after reading everyone's input I checked a cast boolit before sizing and after sizing and the bullet is gaining .002-.004 in size at the tip. so should I try a different alloy or should I try a different boolit mold

That doesn’t sound too-too bad as far as bumping the nose but could be a contributing factor after the OAL. What lube are you using and do you heat it? Also is there another bump when you seat the bullet? One of the clues is still the ring on the nose from the seat die. Also what alloy are you using.

The -291 and the -041 bullets are the go to standard bullets for 30-30 so you should be fine there.

[popper]

bullet is gaining .002-.004 Alloy is soft. Try a different mold or eat deeper. A proper neck expander would help, jacketed expander botton is too small. Neck tension sizes the base of the bullet down and skrunches the nose to a larger diameter.

[243winxb]

The Lyman 311291 should look like one in chart/photo? Did Lyman change the design & keep the same number?

The bullet i cast years ago, fit my Win M94. The bullet body was sized to .309" or .310"? The nose diameter was a lot smaller.

What does your "as cast" bullet measure? Nose & body? Ty.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/castbullets_20090207_001.495/full

[ericg]

I'm using rcbs rifle lube. I do not heat my lube. The ring is coming from seating the bullet.
There is no indent or marking from sizing.

[ericg]

314650314651314652314653


this boolit is right out of the mold little over a week ago. there doesn't seem to be a taper till right at the nose

[RickinTN]

The nose of the bullet is too fat. Look at the deep marks where the Micro-groove lands are engraving the nose of your bullet. It's easy to see.
Good Luck,
Rick

[243winxb]

My as cast nose is .298" compared to your .300"

My as cast body is .312" compared to you huge .316"

A high percent of antimony makes as cast bullets larger in diameter.

Things to try

1. Seat bullet deeper. Leave about 1/8" of the .310" diameter above the case mouth.

2. Add pure lead to alloy to get a smaller diameter, less antimony. Softer is never a good idea.
What is the weight of your as cast bullets? Lighter means a high percent of antimony.

3. Size the nose of the bullets, like a bore rider type. I have not done it.

4. Modify guns chamber. Not what i would do.

I would not make the COL shorter then case mouth @ red mark.

A bent lever needs fitted at factory. It controls headspace. A hunter brought one in. Needed 2nd shot. Buck Fever. Gun jammed. He cut 30-30 shell in half. Bent lever. I had to send it back to Marlin for fitting.

[metricmonkeywrench]

from the Midway Product Overview of the RCBS Rifle Lube:

RCBS bullet lubes eliminate leading and improve the accuracy of cast bullets. The Rifle Lube is a traditional Alox formula consisting of 50% Alox and 50% Beeswax. These hollow sticks measure 1" x 4" and have a melting point of 115 degrees Fahrenheit. A lube heater is recommended for best results.

Features: Works with bench mounted lubri-sizers that accept 1" x 4" lube sticks
Notes:

Lube heater is recommended for best results
(Not recommended for use at indoor ranges)

A stiff lube can require more force on the nose of the bullet in the sizer and may be a contributing factor, as a start a standard hair dryer or heatgun may aid in softening up the lube a bit and easing the sizing process. Your measured sizes don't seem too bad at first glance, if my brain cells connect Ill get some measurements off what I have cast

[Bazoo]

I'd try a different bullet, like the 31141.

I have a winchester 94, and have the same issues with the 311291. The RCBS 30-180-FN also had similar issues, but it would at least chamber in my gun...with resistance.

The lyman 31141 cures the issue for me, not to mention it is a pretty accurate bullet in my gun. I get about 1 3/8" at 70 yards.

I had a lee 309-150-F that worked fine in my gun when the bullets were traditionally lubed, but when powder coated exhibited the same problems because the coating made the nose just a couple thousands larger.

You can have your gun throated if you want it to accept bullets with a fatter nose. I'd source a different mould.

[243winxb]

Brass trim length can be as short as 2.020" ((SAAMI). Then - 1. Seat bullet deeper. Leave about 1/16" of the .310" diameter above the case mouth. May help getting a shorter COL that will fit the chamner.

The COL needs to be short enough to chamber, what ever that COL becomes.


A Lyman M die expander should be used to open the case mouth, before seating any cast bullet.

[marshall623]

Like MMwrench mentioned , Try warming your lube sizer up a bit . I had the same issue with the 130lee 7mm bullet , it was is my Savage Striker with the factory barrel which had a short throat. I was getting the same rifling marks ,but it turns out excessive force applied durning sizing was the issue .Mine was done seating gas checks as well as sizing , it was smashing the bullet and making it fatter . I use 2500+ lube and during summer when it's warm to hot in the garage it runs easy with no heat . Spring and fall it still flows but I'm putting more force on the handle to push the bullet down into the sizers . Now spring and fall it get a heat lamp put on it to warm it up , bullets take less force to size them .

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

[FergusonTO35]

Might try a Lee size die. That die goes in your reloading press and is pushed thru the die by the base. Additionaly might consider a slightly larger expander. Looks like you’re using quite a bit of force to seat the bullet. RCBS “cowboy” dies have a larger expander for cast bullets.

This 100%. Any amount of extra force on the nose can fatten it just enough and Marlins tend to have tight throats. My Marlins do great with the Lee 170 and RCBS 150, both flat nose.

[Griff]

How do the measurements of your "as cast" and seated bullet compare. If the nose of your bullet is actually .300" as shown on your caliper, it should easily seat. I have two questions, 1 - is your lubri-sizer shortening the nose length due to the softness of your alloy? And 2 - how confident are you in the accuracy of your calipers? I don't trust electronic calipers unless they've been verified correct. Those two answers will lead to more questions, such as: What diameter is your sizer die? What size expander are you using in the reloading set. Or, are you simply using a standard two die set? Are you experiencing any nose deflection during the sizing process? Next as a statement, get the correct seater plunger for that nose profile. BTW, that's a gas check design, are you using one? Another statement of advice... use a harder alloy, that bullet should be able to chamber at a loaded length of 2.550"... IF your nose is actually .300" as shown in your measurement of the as cast bullet. I suspect that either the sizing or seating process is deforming your bullet nose... OR, your calipers are not accurate.

As to whether you can seat that bullet down to a OAL of 2.380", it DEPENDS... Not on whether you wear them, but, rather what powder and charge weight are you using.

[pipehand]

I had the same problem with my marlins when I used a Saeco sizer. It would fatten the nose. Once i switched to using the Star, the fat nose problem went away.

[braddock]

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This is an image of all the boolits I currently load for my win 94, 58 vintage. I've tried to position them so the top groove of each is in the same plane as I invariably crimp them in that top groove with a lee factory crimper.
If you look at the gc ones you can see a little deformation, they all go through the lee sizer and come out 0.309" some get swaged more than others as the heaviest and lightest 2 are cast at 0.312" and swaged down to 309.
You can see the difference that the various sizes will have on the overall length, I'm not worried about that, I'm more concerned with the blunt end, the more it protrudes into the boiler-room of the case the greater effect it will have on pressure, especially when the load density is over 90%.
FWIW the 117, 122, 173 plain base and 175 gc were all designed without the rebate for the gaschecks, I bought slightly oversized alloy ones from Sage outdoors and pushed em through the lee sizer.
The biggest worry I have is that on the longer bullets where the gas check is inside the case as opposed to supported by the neck it's possible that the thing will come off in the transition of the gc into the neck. Can cause leading.
Just Saying.
PSI omitted to include the speer 1/2 jacket 100 grain plinker that I load, the lee 2nd edition 2016 reprint lists the 30/30 oal as 2.345", which is real short but even at this length, I crimp on the end of the 1/2 jacket, they feed fine.

[indian joe]

To start I hope this is in the right spot. I'm trying to load for my marlin 336 30-30 and im having issues with the oal of the bullet and not being able to close the lever. I'm using winchester brass trimmed to 2.029. bullets are lyman 311291 cast of wheel weights. and oal of 2.550 will not close the lever. I tried seating the bullet deeper and the only way it closes is to get the bullet oal down to 2.380. I'm just not sure if this would be safe to shoot or not? I did try to force the lever closed with the 2.550 round and it wasn't a good idea. I'm ordering a new lever. lesson learned. does anyone have any ideas or input on my situation or atleast tell me what I'm doing wrong. thanks I took a photo of the round I forced in

Its not really the OAL ----that boolit nose profile is just wrong (too blunt) for the throat in your rifle --you will get there by shortening the round but then can you get a crimp that will hold up under recoil ? If the boolits push down into the case you have a worse problem.

[Tall]

I forgot to mention I did slug the barrell at .308 and the bullets are sized at .310 .

Sounds like the bullet diameter is the problem. Compare what you are doing to the SAAMI specs for 30 WCF ammunition.

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/ANSI-SAAMI-Z299.4-CFR-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

[buckshotshoey]

The COL is misleading. A bullet with a slow taper can be seated much longer then one with a short fast taper. Measure to the ogive... not the bullet tip. Easy to do with ogive gauges. If you measure a factory round COL, then measure your loaded cast boolits COL, you will find that the measurement to the ogive be vastly different. Which by the way is the measurement you need to know anyway.

Using jacketed bullets as an example....
When shooting service rifle competitively, I used 80 grain Sierra's Matchkings for slow fire. The COL was so long, they couldn't be loaded into a magazine. They had to be single loaded directly into the chamber (which was fine because you have to single load in slow fire stages anyway). But the 69 grain Matchkings were much shorter and fit the magazine. When you measured to the ogive on both, they were identical. I seated my bullet ogives so they were .005 off of the lands.

Do yourselves a favor and get ogive gauges. And the bullet seating gauge is a time-saver too.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Go easy on the sizing, a sizer that pushes from the base, Lee, NOE will not affect nose diameter. Lyman or RCBS Lubri-sizers CAN affect bullet nose if TOO MUCH pressure is used against the nose of the bullet when pushed into the sizing die. I ran into this long ago with a Lyman 311041 in a Lyman 45 lubri-sizer. Fixed by not pushing so hard when sizing, but the Lee push through sizer eliminates it completely.

[atr]

Sounds like the bullet diameter is the problem.

I agree....if the slug is too large in diameter it pushes out the case walls which makes a tight or no fit in the chamber. Brass itself may also be part or the problem as some makes of brass have thicker walls. Try sizing to 0.309 and not .310
best
atr

[Kai]

That ring on the nose of the bullet says you used excessive pressure when sizing the bullet. You may have actually squashed the bullet when sizing and the deformity is causing the sticking

[ericg]

thank you all for the answers. and sorry for the delay I got real busy with other things. so I got a new mold ohaus 30-170-f and the boolits it drops chamber flawlessly. I also changed my alloy mix to lyman #2 for the 311291. I made a few test rounds to check for fitment and they do not chamber either. I'm thinking this mold just drops oversized boolits. these boolits won't chamber in my 300 win mag either