WW-296 in 38 Special data?

[Chill Wills]

I hope to find a safe load for a 200grn Lyman cast bullet in 38 Special using WW-296.

I have looked through all my loading books with no luck finding it. I think I saw it somewhere....

[BK7saum]

I seriously doubt that you will find 296/110 data for 38 special. 296/110 is a top end magnum pistol powder and the 38 is NOT a magnum cartridge. Bullseye, 231, unique and similar are all good powders for the 38. H110 is not.

[Chill Wills]

I am well aware. Thanks.
Still looking.

[243winxb]

180 gr is listed- CCI-550 Primer
W-296 From 9.1 grains to 10.1 grains in 38 special. @ Steves Pages.


200 gr lead in 357 mag makes the 38 starting load seem ok to me?? Watch for squibs. https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/357-magnum.2913/full

Lead vs jacketed data- https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/albums/load-data-lead-vs-jacketed-bullets.265/

[shooting on a shoestring]

Some thoughts from me.

First, there’s not data available because W296 in 38 Special (even with heavy 200 grain boolits) gives poor results. Probably very high swings in velocity due to poor ignition. Or the pressure envelope for combusting W296 exceeds the pressure limit 38 Special.

Second, I saw on the internet (Bahahahah) that someone said there was an old copy of a Sierra manual that had a 38 Special load for W296 that was dropped in the next edition. Hmmm……

Third, the SEE (secondary explosive effect) followers believe low pressure loads of W296 are a tool you use to turn a swing out cylinder into a blowout cylinder.

Fourth, how about you do the experiments? Maybe start with a 357 revolver and load it with your 38 case full of W296, ransom rest, long string, chronograph. You probably couldn’t say much about the pressure it generates but you might see if it works good enough to suit you. Might not want to put that in a 38 Special revolver.

I assume you’re not the first guy ever to consider using W296 in 38 Special. There is definitely some reason(s) it’s not commonly done and no one has published data on it now days. Maybe that reason is it’s just not efficient. Maybe there’s more reasons than that. I’m curious too. If you do try it, I’d love to know your results.

[243winxb]

Comparing Hodgdon case capacity in 300 aac blackout & 38 special, show 1 gr less of water in 38 special? Do double check this data.

Hodgdon sub-load data for the 300 black is 9.2 grs, 296, 1060 fps, 22,700PSI. 208 gr Hornady A-Max.

Test at your own risk, but should be doable? Note that SAAMI 38 Spec +P is 20,000 PSI average working pressure.

Bad things can happen- https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/albums/kaboom.24/

[Teddy (punchie)]

Make sure it's in a good solid pistol. Maybe start in a 357 and see how the recoil is.

[TomAM]

Surprisingly, Loaddata.com has lots of data listed for standard pressure 38 Special.

[TomAM]

Using 296.

[FergusonTO35]

I doubt I'll ever buy H110/296 again. I never shoot top end magnum loads and it isn't good for anything else. Strangely enough Hodgdon does list it for standard pressure .32-40 loads, which seems to make about as much sense as using Retumbo.

[reddog81]

Comparing Hodgdon case capacity in 300 aac blackout & 38 special, show 1 gr less of water in 38 special? Do double check this data.

Hodgdon sub-load data for the 300 black is 9.2 grs, 296, 1060 fps, 22,700PSI. 208 gr Hornady A-Max.

Test at your own risk, but should be doable? Note that SAAMI 38 Spec +P is 20,000 PSI average working pressure.

Bad things can happen- https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/albums/kaboom.24/

I use 38 Special and 357 Mag data for coming up with loads in my 300 BLK bolt action. It's easy to come up with conservative loads given that 38 Special is about 1/3rd the pressure and 357 Mag is 20,000 PSI off max 300 blackout loads. Using 300 blackout load data for creating 38 Special loads might work but I wouldn't do it.

There is limited data for 200 grain bullets in 38 special because it's not an ideal combo using any powder. Using W296 and 200 grain bullets in 38 special is just not a good idea. What are you trying to accomplish with this? What guns will be used?

[Chill Wills]

I doubt I'll ever buy H110/296 again. I never shoot top end magnum loads and it isn't good for anything else. Strangely enough Hodgdon does list it for standard pressure .32-40 loads, which seems to make about as much sense as using Retumbo.

Yep. Me too. Thanks for the reply. That sums up where I am on it as well.
I ended up with a bunch of WW-296 and no longer like to shoot magnum level loads.

I have seen published data but don't remember where. I would like to be able to use up my stock of 296 using tested safe loads. The condescending replies I could have written myself and can do without.
Okay, ...grumpy mode over.

The powder as I understand it, was developed for 30 carbine. It is NOT a great fit for the 38 Special or other handgun cartridges of this type. Most of us that have been around a while understand. That does not mean I would not or should not burn up my stocks in a tested, safe published load, assuming I remember right that I had seen one.

Trading it is an option.

[shooting on a shoestring]

“ The condescending replies I could have written myself and can do without.”

Sorry! I hate it when people think I’m being condescending when I really am. Ha!

But ok, so some ideas on how to use W296 without being magnum loads.

How about reciprocators? 9mm and 40 S&W share the same SAAMI pressure as 357 & 44 magnums. 10mm is about 2kpsi higher. I regularly use milsurp WC620 in 10mm with a little kicker of AA5. It works without the AA5 but gets tighter SDEVs and a bit more velocity with it. The 9 & 40 probably wouldn’t get very much velocity but I’ll bet it would work better than 38 Special.

Also, you might have good results with deep seating in 357 to reduce case capacity/velocity/recoil but still keep the pressure high enough to burn well.

I know you’re hoping for published, tested loads and what I’m mentioning is not that. But, I’m in a similar situation with an abundance of 300MP and find it to works very well with a little kicker of AA5 in off menu loadings. It’s not touchy to load a full case, back off a grain and add back a grain of AA5. I’ve found that usually somewhere between 1-2 grains of AA5 added will get clean combustion, even ignition, good pressure and happiness.

[Recycled bullet]

I load and shoot Winchester 296 in 38 Special brass compressed under Elmer Keith bullets in a 4 and 5/8 Ruger Blackhawk and it's extremely accurate but I make no pretense of that being even remotely safe to fire in a 38 Special chambered gun.

If you are stuck on the idea of using a slow powder for this hand loading project you have I propose you may have better results with something like IMR 4227 or 2400.

There might not even be enough case capacity in 38 Special with a 200 grain bullet to where you would create an extremely unsafe condition with 4227, to do load development with a 357 gun.

Then just back the powder charge off until the group's open up and if you have a chronograph try to verify velocity and compare targets for average mean group size.

I have shot a bunch of 150 grain bullets with 10 grains of 4227 and 38 Special Taurus 82- that's the most accurate load for that gun yet. The only downside is I have to periodically clean the extractor star with a brush due to carbon granules collecting and causing issues with rotation of the cylinder after about 4 or 5 cylinders have been fired. (It is dirty in low pressure loads, the full power 357 loads are clean and nice but those 357 loadings are not safe in the 82 so it's beside the point anyways I don't mind a little scrubbing if it comes with accuracy).

2400 is kind of spicy unobtainium lately and 296 behaves poorly in my experience when case fill isn't at least 90%.

What kind of gun are you shooting this out of?

Whatever you choose to do this is an interesting subject. I wish you good luck with this and shoot safe and that you have good results.

[MT Gianni]

180 gr is listed- CCI-550 Primer
W-296 From 9.1 grains to 10.1 grains in 38 special. @ Steves Pages.


200 gr lead in 357 mag makes the 38 starting load seem ok to me?? Watch for squibs. https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/357-magnum.2913/full

Lead vs jacketed data- https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/albums/load-data-lead-vs-jacketed-bullets.265/
The 296 loads listed here are over 35,000 CUP. You are advised to never go below the start loads with this powder and the MFG says to never go below 3% of maximum load data. + P data for 38 special is under 20,000 CUP. As others have said, "You can't get there from here".

[Texas by God]

I used to use H110/W296 for the .30 Carbine,.300 BO, and .41 magnum. It is great in those.
Now I only use it in .30 Carbine and .410 shotgun because my tastes have changed.
I wouldn’t use it for .38 Special.


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[Kosh75287]

There's probably data for 200 gr. projectiles, using Alliant (back when it was Hercules) 2400 in .38 Spl.

[243winxb]

There's probably data for 200 gr. projectiles, using Alliant (back when it was Hercules) 2400 in .38 Spl.

Yes. 38 spec & +P Here is +P maximums. 3.3 Bullseye. 2.9 Red Dot., 3.2 Green Dot. 3.7 Unique. 4.0 Herco. 5.5 Blue Dot. and 7.1 2400.

From 1999 Alliant data. 200 gr LRN, Fed 100 primer. Barrel length 5.6"

Lyman 45 has a 195 gr listed. 2400 @ 9.5 grs. 38 Special & others.

No help if you want to burm up a ton of 296/H110.

[Chill Wills]

Yes. 38 spec & +P Here is +P maximums. 3.3 Bullseye. 2.9 Red Dot., 3.2 Green Dot. 3.7 Unique. 4.0 Herco. 5.5 Blue Dot. and 7.1 2400.

From 1999 Alliant data. 200 gr LRN, Fed 100 primer. Barrel length 5.6"

Lyman 45 has a 195 gr listed. 2400 @ 9.5 grs. 38 Special & others.

No help if you want to burm up a ton of 296/H110.

Yes! Thanks! I have that 2400 data and have used it. The 7.1 grain load is very mild and pleasant to shoot in my 38's. I have a S&W m-10, M-67 and M-36. The Lyman 45 manual has me loading 9 plus grains of 2400 and I have only tried it (38 special cases) in a 357 revolver. But as you say - no help if 296 is the goal.
My small supply of 2400 is saved for other uses.
I am going to look around a little more for WW-296 data but most likely just try to trade it off to someone who will be happy to have it. Full magnums don't give me the joy they once did. My kids think I am old!!! I guess they are right. I am not sure when that happened?

I have enough WW-231, Red Dot and 700X. I am good to go. I was just trying to remember where I saw the 38 Special - WW-296 - 200gr data. ....Moving on. Thanks all, for the help.

[45DUDE]

I am using 2400 with a 200 grain Lyman in 38 special. The old Winchester book had 200 grain data but I think it was 231. I will check my book for 296 and 38 special. 2400 is very accurate and I haven't tried 231 yet with a 200.

[ddixie884]

I have seen data for 296 and H110 at around 9 or 10 gr But of course I can’t remember where.

[derek45]

The solution.......is to get a 300blk or 30carbine.

You'll be out of w296 in no time

:drinks:

[dverna]

Yes! Thanks! I have that 2400 data and have used it. The 7.1 grain load is very mild and pleasant to shoot in my 38's. I have a S&W m-10, M-67 and M-36. The Lyman 45 manual has me loading 9 plus grains of 2400 and I have only tried it (38 special cases) in a 357 revolver. But as you say - no help if 296 is the goal.
My small supply of 2400 is saved for other uses.
I am going to look around a little more for WW-296 data but most likely just try to trade it off to someone who will be happy to have it. Full magnums don't give me the joy they once did. My kids think I am old!!! I guess they are right. I am not sure when that happened?

I have enough WW-231, Red Dot and 700X. I am good to go. I was just trying to remember where I saw the 38 Special - WW-296 - 200gr data. ....Moving on. Thanks all, for the help.

You might be getting both old and smart!!! It is no fun to getting pounded with recoil. Some guys might feel the need to "prove they are a man". You know better.

Good solution to trade it off to a "real man"...LOL

[rintinglen]

The only data I have seen for 296 in 38 Special is in a discredited 1985 Sierra manual, and that was for 158, 170, and 180 grain jacketed bullets. However, I emphatically do not recommend any of that data and will not post it. There were too many errors in the first printing, so they discarded the initial editions (one of which I have), revised it and released another printing. A 308 load they suggested gave me self-ejecting primers and swollen primer pockets, 2 grains below max.

[Chill Wills]

The only data I have seen for 296 in 38 Special is in a discredited 1985 Sierra manual, and that was for 158, 170, and 180 grain jacketed bullets. However, I emphatically do not recommend any of that data and will not post it. There were too many errors in the first printing, so they discarded the initial editions (one of which I have), revised it and released another printing. A 308 load they suggested gave me self-ejecting primers and swollen primer pockets, 2 grains below max.

You prompted my memory, thank you. Yes, I think this was where I saw it and went back and got out that old Sierra second edition loading manual. Just like you say, the WW-296 is listed in purported standard pressure loads. It shows some very fast velocity out a 5" S&W K frame, not only with WW-296 but AL-7 and 4227. As I said in an earlier post. I am done with the idea of loading the 38 Special with 296 and moving on.
Can you imagine the ear splitting muzzle blast fireball with some of these loads???

[Recycled bullet]

Ear piercing muzzle blasthttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230612/35d3b1e4a29775a8fc2d22df93435345.jpg and blinding flash is correct yes sir[emoji16]

[smkummer]

I had 2 8lb jugs of military surplus WC820 which was 30 carbine powder. Sold 1 to a friend who also has a 30 carbine plus a 300 Blackhawk. He likes it. Then I inherited my late mothers 410 bolt action Mossberg shotgun. I am using that powder up now.
Long story but maybe you could post a want to sell at your local trap range to sell that powder or trade? I too seldom shoot full power 44 magnum or 357. And my 30 carbine ammo is currently all loaded.
I have loaded and fired that 195 grain bullet with 2400 data from the Lyman 45th. It’s a thumper in my revolvers on steel plate but it really shined in my Marlin 1894C. Very accurate and “clangs” steel out 100 yards instead of “ting”.

[ACC]

I hope to find a safe load for a 200grn Lyman cast bullet in 38 Special using WW-296.

I have looked through all my loading books with no luck finding it. I think I saw it somewhere....

Like others have said H110/296 is not for 38 special. What I use in my 38's is CFE Pistol. Clean shooting and I can get an honest 1000 fps with no +P.

ACC

[Rapier]

Hope you can read, here is some words and a color picture.

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/77/1241/elmer-keiths-sw-3844-outdoorsman-test-revolver
Note, that picture is not of a 357, it is a 38 Spl heavy frame Outdoorsman, a Smith and Wesson, the actual Elmer Keith 38 Spl gun used to develop the 357 Mag.

[Chill Wills]

Like others have said H110/296 is not for 38 special. What I use in my 38's is CFE Pistol. Clean shooting and I can get an honest 1000 fps with no +P.

ACC

???????????

I don't have a surplus (or any) of that powder. I think you missed the point. Two of them in fact.
Thank you for the reply.

Respectfully, Chill

[fecmech]

Chill--Any skeet shooters in your area?? In the .410 296 is a favorite powder.