38 spl wadcutter loads

[Gunslinger1911]

Just went through the "75,000 WC" post - still a great read !!

Concerning "wadcutter" brass :
1) Is the Starline 38 spl brass really cut deep for flush seating WC ?
2) Could a fella use an inside neck reamer of the correct size to deepen reg brass ?
3) If using a revolver, is there any reason to not just seat WC further out ? (I don't have a S&W 52 - YET !)
4) Using a Python actually, so can you seat flush in 357 brass ?

Thanks in advance for any insight.

[Winger Ed.]

I never knew there was a difference in wadcutter brass or regular for about 30 years.
If it makes a difference, I'm not smart enough or good enough of a shooter to tell.

The only reason I don't use the crimp groove on them that leaves a little sticking out is when I load for a S&W model 52 auto.
Unless they're seated flush with the case mouth, they don't want to feed.

For a revolver, use the published LOA, then go forth and sin no more.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

This might start a firestorm of controversy, but in my experience the reloading of wadcutter bullets into brass that was specifically designed for it, or into regular brass that had originally been factory loaded with something else proved inconsequential at PPC distances to 25 yds. A true .38 Spec. wadcutter bullet is 148 gr., hollow base or double ended, +/- 2.5 gr. of Bullseye and is not intended for longer range accuracy, although no doubt there are those who claim it to be the ideal 100 yd. deer cartridge. The importance of wadcutter-designed brass is an overblown controversy that has existed far too long and which had little to no validity to start with.

DG

[Thumbcocker]

I shot a LOT of 358495 button nose wadcutters in .357 brass crimped in the crimp groove. 4.5 to 5.0 of 231 worked well. Now I would probably substitute promo or red dot starting at 3.5 grains and working up or down listening to the gun.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Gunslinger1911]

OK. thanks guys. It's as I suspected, I'm over thinking it.

I shall do penance for my sin and try to catch up to 75,000 + rounds

[Driver man]

I use Starline brass 38 Special and shoot DEWC flush seated ok but not 38 Special +P as it tapers internally.

[MT Gianni]

I have had a ton of wc brass and think it made a slight difference. Being 13 months away from age 70 it makes little difference now.

[shooting on a shoestring]

Martin Luber has it right.
If you’re not bulging the case at the boolit base you’re fine.

If wadcutter brass makes a difference on your target, you’re not going to be the guy asking, but will be the guy that gets asked.

Seating depth…you can seat out as far as your revolver will chamber or as short as flush. I use both and lots of seating depths in between depending. Of course you’ll need to adjust the powder charge to suit the reduced or expanded case capacity.

I’ve played with deep seating wadcutters for a snubby to get the last bit of boolit base travel to get the last bit of velocity. And I’ve seated long to give as much case capacity for slow powder to get maximum velocity. And I’ve discovered it’s just plain easier to load the wadcutter boolits into 357 cases and revolvers and let the velocity rip!

[Mk42gunner]

A few years ago when I was getting started in loading .38 Special WC, I measured a lot of brass. All of the Starline I measured was 0.010" deep enough to seat a 148 WC.

Alas, my ancient RCBS expander wasn't up to the task with run of the mill "once fired" brass from a gun show. I purchased a Lyman M-die that fixed my problem. And a few months later I refound the set of Lyman .38/.357 dies that I had bought in a box of stuff at an auction.

Now the lonely M-die lives in the box with my .35 Remington dies.

Robert

[Tall]

Never had any "wadcutter" brass. I just load the brass I have. No issues. Lots of wadcutters loaded. Some hollow based, some double ended plated, some powder coated. All shot fine.

[tazman]

One of the fun things about seating solid base wadcutters in one of the grease grooves for revolver use is, you can use the same powder charge as a semiwadcutter boolit seated in it's crimp groove since the internal capacity will be the same. You do need to make sure the boolit is sized to fit into the throats on your cylinder.
I tried some this way. It was necessary to push them all the way into the cylinder since they were a tight fit in the throats of my revolver. No fast reloads with this setup but the accuracy was wonderful.
I found my accuracy was improved when using wadcutter brass for my target loads. I suspect this was due to having sorted and matched brass as much as anything else.
That was all quite some years ago. At age 71 now and developing cataracts and glaucoma, I no longer see any real differences in group size no matter how capable the guns and loads are.

[georgerkahn]

This might start a firestorm of controversy, but in my experience the reloading of wadcutter bullets into brass that was specifically designed for it, or into regular brass that had originally been factory loaded with something else proved inconsequential at PPC distances to 25 yds. A true .38 Spec. wadcutter bullet is 148 gr., hollow base or double ended, +/- 2.5 gr. of Bullseye and is not intended for longer range accuracy, although no doubt there are those who claim it to be the ideal 100 yd. deer cartridge. The importance of wadcutter-designed brass is an overblown controversy that has existed far too long and which had little to no validity to start with.

DG

Once again, Der Gebirgsjager is, imho, 101% right on! In my OCD Bullseye shooting years I loaded a zillion (give or take a very few) .38 S&W Special cases for my (no-dash) S & W Model 52, and while I only used CCI primers, 2.7 grains of Bullseye powder, and my cast H&G #527 mould bullets with a quality control criteria of +/- 1 grain -- I used any brass I could scrounge, take out of trash buckets at range, or even ;) purchase -- both new and quite, quite fired. The trophies I acquired were NOT for MY good shooting -- just that other guys were a tad less lucky than I was...
The only three things I really kind of paid attention to were the ability of brass to hold bullet; no splits; and, no "loose" primer pockets. This was before the new kid on the block -- wet, powder tumbling which really cleans cases -- became the thing to use. My brass generally spent several hours in my Thumler's Tumbler, where I'd have to sometimes pick media from primer pocket or inside cases...
geo

[Forrest r]

Why not load the wc bullets long???

Takes all the yay/nay case comparability out of play. Seating the wc's long will also aid in accuracy when using the 38spl cases in a 357mag.

[Gunslinger1911]

All great info guys - thanks !!!

Forrest; loading long was my thought for my Smith 27 and Python, but ........ my buddy has a Smith 52, he has to seat flush.
He has the classy gun, I get ease of loading.

[Kai]

I have no idea how much 38 spcl brass I have but it's probly in the neighborhood of a few thousand all in one big tub. No idea how many headstamps or number of firings. When it's time to load I grab a few handfuls, add 2.5gr bullseye, and stuff a lyman 35863 seated flush with a slight crimp. These are fired from s&w 52, 14, 19, 66, 27. No issues and accuracy is superb. I have several boxes of factory winchester midrange from back in the day. Only thing special about that brass is a canelure. No other difference from other 38spcl brass.

[uscra112]

I can't fathom NOT seating any revolver bullet far enough out so that part of the full diameter it is into the throat, this keeping it aligned concentrically. Same as I do for my cast bullet rifles. That said, the best load I ever had for my Officer's Model Colt was a semi-wadcutter, and from then on I stopped loading full wadcutters of any sort.

[jonp]

I've separated out WC brass which, I believe, are brass with 2 crimp lines. I've not noticed a difference in accuracy using target loads of Red Dot in my Target Masterpiece over other types of brass.

[gwpercle]

Typically , in revolvers , you will get a little better accuracy by Not loading the WC flush .
Leave the top driving band exposed and crimp in the crimp groove below the top driving band .
The theory is this centers the round in the chamber , the case is not slightly tilted down but parallel and more in line with the bore . I just read a Shooting Times Test and the more accurate load wasn't flush in the revolvers .

The winning powder charge was 2.7 grs. Bullseye !
Gary

[dverna]

An interesting discussion. There is accuracy and then there is ACCURACY.

Even when I was young and could shoot relatively well, when we wanted to determine ACCUACY, we used a Ransom Rest and 50 shot groups.

I was fortunate to shoot with some Master Class Bullseye shooters and I cannot remember anyone who did not use the Ransom Rest. They did their accuracy work at 50 yards.

I cannot answer the question posed. When I was shooting Bullseye, I had 2000 cases and they were all Dominion (CIL) wadcutter cases I got from a guy who gave me a good deal as he knew I was poor. All my testing was with that brass.

In practical terms, I doubt brass has much affect or at least enough of a difference to be seen by most pistol shooters. I no longer sort pistol brass. I have over 5000 cases and am too lazy to sort them. But I cannot shoot well enough for it to matter either. Getting old sucks.

[MT Gianni]

I've separated out WC brass which, I believe, are brass with 2 crimp lines. I've not noticed a difference in accuracy using target loads of Red Dot in my Target Masterpiece over other types of brass.

Winchester and Remington WC brass have the two cannelure grooves. Federal has a single cannelure about 1/3 of the way down. I have seen Hornaday WC brass but don't ever have enough of it to segregate it. Fiocchi is the same.

[metricmonkeywrench]

Older post discussing the brass with pix.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?400746-38-Special-Wadcutter-Brass

Just by my thinking the brass used would effect hollow based bullets less than a solid WC, the hollow base by design would swell to seal the throat/barrel. The solid bullet may be swaged a bit in the case and the base may not upset fully at WC pressures and velocity’s.

[jonp]

Winchester and Remington WC brass have the two cannelure grooves. Federal has a single cannelure about 1/3 of the way down. I have seen Hornaday WC brass but don't ever have enough of it to segregate it. Fiocchi is the same.

Yes, that is it. After reading a thread on here I separated them out. Seated to the top groove after triming the brass and weighing each charge. For me it was a waste of time

[Sam Sackett]

Getting old has its perks. We can blame our eyes, reflexes, etc, on our inability to shoot perfectly. It’s more fun to compete with me! I never lose!

Sam Sackett

[Daver7]

Getting old has its perks.Sam Sackett

Yes it does Sam. The older I get the better I was

[FergusonTO35]

I seat my Lymans in the top crimp groove so it looks like a really short SWC. Add 3 grains Bullseye and you have the perfect .38 Special round.

[The Kid]

I have an H&G wadcutter mold but not the more common #50. I’d have to look at the H&G history site again to be certain but I think it’s a #32. It has a full diameter driving band ahead of a tapered crimp groove and a bore ride section topped with a button nose. It gets about 3/16” of the bullet out of the case when crimped in the groove.

They give excellent accuracy out of all of my S&W revolvers, J,K, and N frames. My standard load is 3.5gr of 231 with any old primer I can get my hands on. At 20 yards if I’m not shooting a ragged one hole group it’s me and not the gun or the load. They also seem to stay stable further down range than other wadcutters I’ve used in the past. Hitting a 10” plate at 75 yards is no problem, mechanically anyway.

[35remington]

Actually wadcutter brass was designed to accommodate the HBWC by avoiding case bulging issues and preserving the skirt undamaged in seating. This is considered desirable. The HBWC seats notably deeper than a solid type with bullet surface ahead of the crimp groove given standard near flush seating with the HBWC.

[tazman]

I have an H&G wadcutter mold but not the more common #50. I’d have to look at the H&G history site again to be certain but I think it’s a #32. It has a full diameter driving band ahead of a tapered crimp groove and a bore ride section topped with a button nose. It gets about 3/16” of the bullet out of the case when crimped in the groove.

They give excellent accuracy out of all of my S&W revolvers, J,K, and N frames. My standard load is 3.5gr of 231 with any old primer I can get my hands on. At 20 yards if I’m not shooting a ragged one hole group it’s me and not the gun or the load. They also seem to stay stable further down range than other wadcutters I’ve used in the past. Hitting a 10” plate at 75 yards is no problem, mechanically anyway.

That sounds remarkably similar to the Lyman 358432 design. It also works well in a wide variety of revolvers.
The extra length in front of the case(when crimped in the crimp groove) enables the use of the same powder charges as normal 150 grain semiwadcutter boolits.
Excellent boolit design.

[The Kid]

That sounds remarkably similar to the Lyman 358432 design. It also works well in a wide variety of revolvers.
The extra length in front of the case(when crimped in the crimp groove) enables the use of the same powder charges as normal 150 grain semiwadcutter boolits.
Excellent boolit design.

It is very similar. In fact I believe the old catalog description I read mentioned it being “a button nosed wadcutter similar to the Lyman design”.

You often hear midrange wadcutters being recommended as snub gun SD loads. Since many loads often lack the speed out of 2” barrels to make bullets expand and you are assured of a full caliber hole, with the reduced recoil being another benefit for the small guns. I think this style wadcutter would have the advantage of being easier to use for making a fast reload with it not presenting a completely squared off case mouth that is harder to guide into the chambers. They can also be loaded to full power if so desired due to the trait you mention about base protrusion.

All adding up to a more versatile bullet that, in my experience, is just as accurate as other solid wadcutters.

[Forrest r]

I have an H&G wadcutter mold but not the more common #50. I’d have to look at the H&G history site again to be certain but I think it’s a #32. It has a full diameter driving band ahead of a tapered crimp groove and a bore ride section topped with a button nose. It gets about 3/16” of the bullet out of the case when crimped in the groove.

They give excellent accuracy out of all of my S&W revolvers, J,K, and N frames. My standard load is 3.5gr of 231 with any old primer I can get my hands on. At 20 yards if I’m not shooting a ragged one hole group it’s me and not the gun or the load. They also seem to stay stable further down range than other wadcutters I’ve used in the past. Hitting a 10” plate at 75 yards is no problem, mechanically anyway.

#36 perhaps

[jdgabbard]

If there is special "wadcutter" only brass, I'm unfamiliar with it. I've been shooting the 358495/H&G 50 over 3gr of Bullseye for a long time without ever experiencing anything but stellar accuracy out to the distances I'm able to see to - which is admittedly quite shorter today than it was years ago. If there is some type of special brasss for wadcutters, I couldn't see where it would be of any consequence to a mere mortal such as myself...

[The Kid]

#36 perhaps

I just checked and this is correct. I’ve shot up pounds of H&G 50s and I think I prefer the 36.

[Flying Anvil]

never knew that there is wadcutter brass?

what is the difference?

[tazman]

It is very similar. In fact I believe the old catalog description I read mentioned it being “a button nosed wadcutter similar to the Lyman design”.

You often hear midrange wadcutters being recommended as snub gun SD loads. Since many loads often lack the speed out of 2” barrels to make bullets expand and you are assured of a full caliber hole, with the reduced recoil being another benefit for the small guns. I think this style wadcutter would have the advantage of being easier to use for making a fast reload with it not presenting a completely squared off case mouth that is harder to guide into the chambers. They can also be loaded to full power if so desired due to the trait you mention about base protrusion.

All adding up to a more versatile bullet that, in my experience, is just as accurate as other solid wadcutters.

Since I am so much of a penny pincher, I use the Lyman 358432 at full power as the loads already in my self defense revolver. They shoot to point of aim and are very accurate. I use rnfp in the speedloaders for the speed of reloading. I copuld use a round nose design but I like the flat area that an rnfp gives me.
I have never had much luck getting good expansion from 38 Special loads even with jacketed bullets so I go with what shoots well for me.

As to the original question about the differences in brass. Wadcutter brass has been well described earlier in this thread aqnd elsewhere on this site. Solid base wadcutters don't really need wadcutter brass due to the difference in the length of the boolit. Due to the base being hollow, the hollow base wadcutter is significantly longer than a solid base wadcutter. That extra length and the more easily swaged, thin walled hollow base, make if necessary to have thin case walls further into the case than are needed for solid base wadcutters. Many get by just fine without the wadcutter brass by relying on the pressures to expand the base to fill the barrel.

Due to the boolit being seated so deeply into the case, depending on which powder you use, the pressures are nearly as high as standard self defense loads even though the velocity tends to be lower. Deep seated wadcutter boolits make very efficient use of powder.