Need advice

[Hook]

I have a problem that is more of a rifle issue than a boolit issue. My 30 caliber stash was running low, so I went on a casting spree and cast a bunch of my favorites, the Lee 170 FP and RCBS 180 FP. This time I decided to soften the alloy up and wanted to make sure the loads still shot the same. Turns out that the POIs stayed the same, but I was reminded that my 03A3 always throws the first cold barrel shot 2" to 3" to the left. After that first shot they all go into the group even if allowed to cool down at the range while shooting other rifles. If I wait a few hours and then go back to my range, the first shot is left!

The rifle is a sporterized Remington 03A3 from WWII with the original barrel. Someone cut it back to 20", shortened the stock, and installed target front aperture sight and a receiver sight. I assumed it was intended as a target/competition rifle for a youth or female. I put it in an old sporter stock, probably a Fagen, and put a scope on it. The barrel is free floated and I think the bedding is good. The load for both bullets is 24gr/4227 and they are powder coated and gas checked.

Here is a typical target (RCBS 180) with a cold bore first shot:

https://i.imgur.com/3mhfoSel.jpg


Here is a typical target from a warm barrel. In this case I just shot up the remainder of my 170 gr hunting loads from last year. These 9 shots were fired at a steady rate of probably a shot every 30 seconds or so:

https://i.imgur.com/nIAXK97l.jpg

Any ideas about why the cold barrel shot is off and any possible solutions would be appreciated. I deer hunt with these bullets and I really don't want to zero the scope for the cold bore shot and then have to worry about any possible follow upshots (or vice versa).

[Mk42gunner]

That is a puzzler to me. Does it also throw a first shot flier with jacketed? If it does, is it in the same location?

Robert

[gwpercle]

Those first shot fliers have always been head-scratchers .
At NRA matches you are allowed fouling shots so you will not be shooting from a cold - first shot barrel .
It May be barrel harmonics or it may be the first shot is in an oiled barrel and the following are from fouled barrel . I remember my Dad would shoot his rifle before a hunt and not clean it ...it may be the day before or a week before the hunt but he believed the clean barrel with oil etc. , was what flung that first shot wide ... so when hunting he had fired the gun and was hunting with a fouled barrel .

Try a fouling shot before hunting ... maybe the old man was right about it or try placing a plastic shim under the fore end tip to put some upward pressure on the barrel ... I've heard of this helping with the first shot . It doesn't have to be a lot of pressure , just enought to affect barrel vibrations . A section (strip) of credit card thick plastic is commonly used .
Let us know what works ,
Gary

[Hook]

I have not shot this rifle so much recently and cannot really remember it pulling the first shot like this before. I plan to take it across the creek in the morning (blessed to have my own 100 yd range with covered bench) and shoot it again with jacketed. I did find a few old targets and more than one showed a distinct shot to the left out of the group...not so bad as above but noticeable. Trouble is, I have no idea whether those groups were fired from a cold barrel.

I put together 3 different loads to try this morning. The first shot fired was at least 3 inches left and then the groups settled into a more round pattern. None of the loads really pleased me so I went back to the shop and loaded 5 more rounds and fired the above target. Total elapsed time between the two range visits was about 2 hours and still the first round went wide left. The 9 shot group was fired immediately after and is nice and round. Apparently, all it takes is a total barrel cool down, whether 2 hours or 2 months, to get a cold barrel flier. I don't think the average deer will allow me to take fouling shot in the air and then shoot at him for score.

As stated, I will shoot it again in the morning with jacketed just to see what it does, but it doesn't make much difference because I plan for it to be a dedicated cast rifle from now on. Unless someone points out other potential causes, I think I'll bed the first inch or two of the barrel in front of the receiver. Right now, it is floated for the full length of the barrel. It could be that the recoil lug is moving sideways a little when everything heats up from the first shot.

If necessary, I'll live with it and just apply a little Kentucky windage when hunting. I won't be shooting very far at deer, so it shouldn't cause too many problems. But dang it, I just don't like not knowing for sure where the POI will be. The rifle is accurate enuf that shouldn't be an issue.

[Bigslug]

Put the rifle in a cradle upside down with nothing touching the barrel.

Hang a 3-5 pound weight off the barrel.

Fill the gap between the barrel and nose of the stock with card stock until the gap is closed. Remove the weight and test fire. If it helps, you can make it permanent by fixing the saddle with epoxy. Bedding the action, recoil lug area, and rear of the barrel to roughly the length of the chamber while you're at it can only help.

This upward pressure will basically duplicate what Remington did on 700 sporters since day one and also what the British did on the full run of Enfields from the SMLE through the P14 and No. 4. Free-floating is not necessarily all that and a bag of chips. While it's true that wood is a variable material, you're probably seeing the reality that a mass-produced and not stress-relieved barrel can be a variable material too. The one can be used to stabilize the other.

[gwpercle]

If bedding the barrel an inch or two in front of the receiver doesn't work try :
An inch or two of bedding under the barrel at the fore end tip , and if that doesent solve the problem ... apply some pressure at the tip with a shim of credit card plastic to put some upward pressure at that point and disrupt the wonky barrel harmonic vibration that's messing with your groups .
I have a 1903-A3 sporter also ( I built it in the 1960's) but it has a two-groove barrel and is fully bedded from receiver to fore end tip with a strip of credit card under the bbl at the tip .
It doesn't fling cold / first shots ...but I just got lucky ... I was 16 and had no idea what I was doing .
Gary

[BLAHUT]

I have a 30/06 that does similar, so I just sight it in, so first shot is point of aim, if I use it for deer hunting, a second shot is rarely needed.

[Hook]

Shot it again this morning with full power loads. The cold barrel issue showed up in spades....much more pronounced than with mild cast loads. Pic shows movement after each shot. I only took 5 rounds, but I think if I'd kept shooting the rest would have clustered around shots 3, 4, and 5. This rifle has seldom thrown shots around this bad. I'm gonna start from scratch and check everything. Bedding, scope mounting, scope, and anything else that comes to mind. I appreciate everyone's thoughts and input.

https://i.imgur.com/IWeTsk5l.jpg

[Mk42gunner]

I've never done a Springfield, but have bedded plenty of Mauser's, both 96 and 98. Since a Springfield is basically a Mauser derivative the following may help:

I typically bed the whole action; including the trigger guard, with a steel spacer for the rear screw. I also bed the first couple of inches of the barrel, then free float the rest with a couple of layers of electrical tape.

I have not had to go back and add a pressure point yet. Now watch the next one I do I will.

I like AccraGlas gel.

Remember release agent is your friend.

Robert

[oconeedan]

I think Bigslug has a good point. The barrel may be stressed (or unstressed), and actually warps as it heats up. Either warps or gets straight. You get my point, barrel may actually curve as it is heated.

[Hook]

Well, there's not much I can do if it's a stressed barrel. It certainly isn't worth sending off to be cryogenically treated. At least the cold barrel issue isn't as big a deal with mild cast loads. If the bedding correction doesn't work I'll just have to live with it.

Again, I really appreciate y'all's input!

[Randy Bohannon]

I would just “Kentucky Windage” the first shot and put in the group since it consistently puts the first shot in the same place.

[TD1886]

I built a 260 Remington on a Type 38 Arisaka good number of years ago. Bedded action and first one inch of the barrel out of the receiver and free floated the rest. It walked the bullets to right in a perfect horizonatl line. I could win bets with it doing that. So then I placed business cards under the forend area and viola! She started shooting. So then I bedded that area. The rest was history, nice round groups. BTW I use Devcon steel putty for my bedding. Alway have and always will.

If you didn't have the barrel walking I'd almost say change lubes.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

That first shot from a cold barrel out of the group is fairly common. There are many ways that have been tried to resolve the problem. Sometimes it only happens from a cold clean barrel - leaving the barrel fouled solves that one. Using moly or hex boron coating provides some help with jacketed bullets. Some powders leave a dirty film that can throw a shot or two from a cold fouled barrel (BL-C2 comes to mind, maybe it has changed) then settling in after a couple shots. Colder temperatures seem to affect that first shot more than on warmer days. Skinny barrels seem to be more affected than heavier barrels. Some barrels put all their shots into the same place. Various bullet lubes can affect performance from cold to warmed barrels. Various powders can also be affected by both external temperatures and the heat within the barrel. The temperature rise of the barrel steel internally for the first shot is usually quite a bit greater than for following shots. The rifles that put all their shots together in most conditions are to be favored. Lots of variables, barrel condition, temperatures, barrel bedding, powder, fouling in barrel, oil/solvent/dry internal barrel surface to be considered. Of course, the greater the distance and the smaller the group, the more that first shot is noticed.

[frankmissing]

I also think putting a plastic shim under the fore end tip to put some upward pressure on the barrel ... You need to test different options somewhere there is the right solution!

[kungfustyle]

What MostlyLeverGuns said. If you clean the bbl and the first shot on a clean bbl is off? That is pretty standard for some rifles, especially if letting it cool doesn't affect poi. That's why they let you take a few fouling shots before the games begin.

[D.Bullets]

I had one like that. I Pillar Bedded the action and the recoil lug along with the first 3/4 inch of barrel making sure the rest was free floating. Worked up a new load. 1st Flyer went away and group shrunk. It will now shoot several loads equal to my previous best.

[Hook]

Update for those interested:

I found I had very little Acraglass, but went ahead and bedded a thin strip (about 1/4" wide) in a full semicircle just in front of the action. Took it out this morning and got this cold barrel group:

https://i.imgur.com/pJ93giZl.jpg


I then shot a little with another rifle. After that I tried a second three shot group:


https://i.imgur.com/GEZAnXWl.jpg

This indicated that my first shot blues were caused by poor bedding. I'll go ahead and gouge out the little bit I put in and do a better, wider strip around the bbl when I get some more bedding material. I don't expect further woes with first shots.

Some here may be interested in the other rifle I was shooting. It is a wildly bubba'ized Model 1917 that has been ground down and bedded into a 1903 stock of all things. A Stith scope mounting system was installed with an old Weaver 330 M8. The Weaver was almost too milky to see thru so I got it refurbished. It's now nice and clear and has a post reticle.

I had a few loads left over from last year that have the RCBS 180 FP bullets used in the 03A3 above. However, they were cast of a different alloy and I wanted to see how the newer cast bullets compared. Because I am now using a softer alloy, the nose diameter was just enuf different that I had to change the seating depth a tad. This is what I got from the two different loads:

https://i.imgur.com/wXv20jgl.jpg



As you can see, the point of impact went down 3" with the newer alloy. Didn't expect that at all, so I'll have to allow for that going forward until the old bullets are used up. I know my M 1917 is really ugly rifle, but it has grown on me. Not to mention that it shoots purt good for what it is. Here is a pic of the poor, abused old soldier:


https://i.imgur.com/jz0eIW1l.jpg

[Mk42gunner]

While it may not win any beauty contests, it doesn't seem to shoot that bad.

And no I don't want to see the other contestants if it were to win.

Robert

[Gewehr-Guy]

Glad you found out your first shot flier was a bedding problem. Now I'll tell why I think some other rifles have a changing impact problem. Recently I was cutting some pieces off a demilled drill rifle barrel, to use in making straight line bullet seaters, and I noticed one barrel's bore was off center by .030 of an inch !! That much barrel side wall difference is easily spotted by eye, and I can't believe it wasn't spotted when turning on a lathe.

I'm not sure how many barrels like that are out there, but when heated during a string of shots, it would about have too change the POI. So if you have a rifle doing strange stuff, it could be an off center bore.

[charlie b]

A lot of barrels are installed and shipped with some internal stresses remaining as well. Part of many barrel mfg processes is to take a barrel fresh from rifling and check the bore for being straight. If it is not, they bend the barrel until it is. I suspect a barrel that is bent "a lot" will change POI pretty dramatically as it heats up.

[Hook]

and I noticed one barrel's bore was off center by .030 of an inch !! That much barrel side wall difference is easily spotted by eye

You mean like this?

https://i.imgur.com/Ea0TtQEl.jpg

One side is 0.025" thinner than the other. I'm ashamed to admit how I found this. Just say that after 30 odd years of reloading, a series of accumulative blunders caused me to blow up the barrel on a Marlin M36 I'd had rebored to 38-55 by JES.

It was light cast loads with Unique and apparently one had no powder. I chose to work thru some tough family issues by spending some down time on my range. Because I had my head tucked firmly up my rectum due to those issues, I failed to take proper notice of a click instead of a bang. I can only surmise that back somewhere in my addled brain I thought I'd rechambered a fired round, so I loaded another and fired it. The primer must have sent the bullet most of the way through the barrel and stuck. This is what happened from firing the next round.

https://i.imgur.com/PyIdKT0l.jpg

The only good result (other than me not being hurt and only the barrel being hurt on the rifle) was the bulge was close enuf to the end of the bbl that I could whack it off at just over 16" and keep it legal without rebarreling. Before the blow up, that M36 was the most accurate cast bullet shooter I'd ever owned except for a phenomenal Stevens 44 1/2 also in 38-55. After bobbing the barrel, accuracy was barely OK for hunting. At any rate, the off center bore was NEVER an issue before the bobbing. That Marlin would stack'em all day long!

Since that day I never seat a bullet into a case without checking the powder level both visually and with a stick insert if the powder charge is small enuf not to be able to visually see the level in the case. I also bend over backward to stay alert and aware of anything out of the ordinary whenever I'm shooting. It's very embarrassing to admit to doing such a stupid thing but if I can keep anyone else from such a mistake, I'll live with it.

That cut off piece of barrel is mounted on the wall directly in front of my reloading press to serve as permanent reminder. Everyone who comes into my shop to learn to load or to use my equipment to load their own ammo (and there are several who do so) is shown that piece of barrel and is told the story. They have to follow my procedures to load even their own ammo.

[Gewehr-Guy]

Yes, that's exactly what my 03a3 barrel looks like. It's interesting that your barrel shot so well before shortening, and then suffered in accuracy after. Barrel harmonics must be a complicated subject, with no set rules !

[Hook]

Yes, that's exactly what my 03a3 barrel looks like. It's interesting that your barrel shot so well before shortening, and then suffered in accuracy after. Barrel harmonics must be a complicated subject, with no set rules !

My thoughts exactly!

[elmacgyver0]

Your rifle looks fine to me, but that chair.
I guess beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

[Hook]

Yup, kinda like my bubba'ed up old 1917. That chair has a history, too!

[D.Bullets]

Yep!! Looks familiar. You are on the path to having an impressive shooting rifle.
If that’s just a sample of some bedding.
I hope you share the results of the full bedded action.