2 questions

[RyanJames170]

Dose anyone have any clues where F, FF, FFF would fall on the burn rate chart, I know it has a lot less energy per volume then smoakless powder but I was curious how they compared to smoakless powders in terms of burn rate.

2nd question is anyone ever made a velocity calculator for BP in cartridge? I know there is one for muzzle loaders but I was curious on BP, I would like to play around with a few things before I buy some stuff

[veeman]

Black Powder, as I understand it, doesn't have a "burn rate" like smokeless powder. Black Powder is an explosive, smokeless burns.

[trapper9260]

BP burns fast the finer the grains are . 4 F burns faster then 1 F . then you have 2 F and 3 F .

[Castaway]

Ryan, what specifically do you want to play with before taking the plunge? Velocities of various cartridges loaded with black powder are easily found, including those not originally loaded with such. The empirical evidence for actual loads reflect reality and a calculator is an approximation. The variances in individual guns will also vary and are not programmable in the “calculator”.

[RyanJames170]

Ryan, what specifically do you want to play with before taking the plunge? Velocities of various cartridges loaded with black powder are easily found, including those not originally loaded with such. The empirical evidence for actual loads reflect reality and a calculator is an approximation. The variances in individual guns will also vary and are not programmable in the “calculator”.

45 colt family, ie 45 S&W upto 460 S&W and 45-70 government, and if Like to play with the barrel lengths to see the point to find the point it’s too short and the point adding a extra inch of length gained nothing as I know alot of rifle barrels are now cut to lengths that make sense for smoakless powder, this would be before I buy something
.

[martinibelgian]

The late DanT had an excel calculator for BP, think it was only for swiss powder though. Still, lots of ther variables out there.

[indian joe]

Black Powder, as I understand it, doesn't have a "burn rate" like smokeless powder. Black Powder is an explosive, smokeless burns.

We could argue about that - its categorised as a class 1 explosive = more easily lit by wayward sparks etc so its more of a transport issue - lots of politics mixed up here too.
If you confine the same quantity of smokeless and black in a blasting situation you get way more explosive action with smokeless than with black - been there done that one with some surplus pistol powder - shredded a little posthole gun that we had used for ages with blackpowder.

[indian joe]

45 colt family, ie 45 S&W upto 460 S&W and 45-70 government, and if Like to play with the barrel lengths to see the point to find the point it’s too short and the point adding a extra inch of length gained nothing as I know alot of rifle barrels are now cut to lengths that make sense for smoakless powder, this would be before I buy something
.

a bit of a hint - the mounted shooting people use blanks loaded with (coarse ish I would guess) blackpowder - there is sufficient unconsumed burning powder grains out of the barrel to take out balloons at several feet from the muzzle (pistol, rifle and shotgun) add a projectile and a long barrel and most of it burns in the barrel but still plenty left out front to singe yre whiskers

[FrankJD]

The burning powder and the "exploding" powder ......


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV1KO2Uj3y8

[Lead pot]

a bit of a hint - the mounted shooting people use blanks loaded with (coarse ish I would guess) blackpowder - there is sufficient unconsumed burning powder grains out of the barrel to take out balloons at several feet from the muzzle (pistol, rifle and shotgun) add a projectile and a long barrel and most of it burns in the barrel but still plenty left out front to singe yre whiskers

Not only from the muzzle but also from the flash hole from a flint lock. :D
I was shooting my Southern Mountain rifle when a fellow came from behind me, about three feet away to see what I was shooting and when the prime in the pan set the charge off and he still has a black dot tattoo on his left cheek where the powder buried it's self.

[Gobeyond]

I was wondering the grains per cc of Goex 3fg and 2fg. For ease of loading 45 colt with a dipper.

Rather the ccs per grain.

[RyanJames170]

I was wondering the grains per cc of Goex 3fg and 2fg. For ease of loading 45 colt with a dipper.

Rather the ccs per grain.

I would just weigh a half dozen charges that your dipper drops for weight, and go from there, you could take a average or use the high, BP can be measured via weight unlike the volume only ones like pyrodex

[indian joe]

Not only from the muzzle but also from the flash hole from a flint lock. :D
I was shooting my Southern Mountain rifle when a fellow came from behind me, about three feet away to see what I was shooting and when the prime in the pan set the charge off and he still has a black dot tattoo on his left cheek where the powder buried it's self.

Me too! guy is a wannabe smart ass - we shooting with flash deflectors on our flinters - mine had slipped down - I was doin good on the target and this dude moved in beside me (deliberate I reckon) bumped my elbow just as I was about to fire - I pulled a bad shot - he got tattooed - still whining about it last time I saw him - served the fool right I reckon.

[indian joe]

I was wondering the grains per cc of Goex 3fg and 2fg. For ease of loading 45 colt with a dipper.

Rather the ccs per grain.

figure out your load height then make a scoop measure from a fired case .

[MSGuy]

It was explained to me a long time ago (which made sense at least for me), cc’s or cubic centimeters is a unit of volume, and grains is a unit of weight. Following that logic a dipper measures volume not weight so the actual grain weight will vary depending on what is in the dipper, i.e. a dipper with 4FFG vs. the same dipper with 1FG will not weigh the same. Even using the same size dipper with the same granulation powder will vary when weighed. The only sure way to get the same weight of BP is to weigh it, a dipper will get you close but it’s not exact.

[Minerat]

For years I loaded my 54 TC Hawkins using a volume measure, under the presumption that you measured BP not weighted it. Then I got a Shiloh 45-90 and in my research found that the brass BP volume measure I used for years was actually based on a weight measurement (thanks Indian Joe).


Fill the measure to 80 gr - 2F BP and weigh it, the load come out to be ± 2 gr. So I now weigh my cartridge loads but still use volume for my front stuffer and ROA for loading in the field. I don't worry about the volume measure when using 2F or 3F but weigh 1F due to the larger grains. Just get one of these.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1002293823?pid=378444

In the long run you only need one tool not a bunch of dippers. JMO.

[indian joe]

For years I loaded my 54 TC Hawkins using a volume measure, under the presumption that you measured BP not weighted it. Then I got a Shiloh 45-90 and in my research found that the brass BP volume measure I used for years was actually based on a weight measurement (thanks Indian Joe).


Fill the measure to 80 gr - 2F BP and weigh it, the load come out to be ± 2 gr. So I now weigh my cartridge loads but still use volume for my front stuffer and ROA for loading in the field. I don't worry about the volume measure when using 2F or 3F but weigh 1F due to the larger grains. Just get one of these.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1002293823?pid=378444

In the long run you only need one tool not a bunch of dippers. JMO.

Heres my deal
weigh carefully for target loads in big cartridges 45/70 etc

measured is fine for front loaders - unless you running a tackhole slug gun

a scoop measure cut to correct dimension is good for short cases like 44/40, 45colt etc - simple and easy,

I establish the load - powder height in the case - then cut a measure to suit .....but ....if you ask me what the load is I tell it to you in grains weight for the brand of powder ....

[Castaway]

Back to the OP. Playing with a load calculator may be interesting, but the longest commercially available barrel length you’ll find in the calibers you listed won’t be long enough to optimize your black powder velocities. In other words; if you had a calculator that considered every variable and correctly predicted velocity for the particular caliber/load, you’ll run out of options in available barrel lengths in looking for the most velocity produced. Another way, the barrel lengths available in the calibers listed are too short to produce the best velocity.

[indian joe]

The burning powder and the "exploding" powder ......


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV1KO2Uj3y8

Frank - I had a comment but your utube video ended and up on the screen came some of my favourite cowboy singers --Don Edwards getting a standing ovation from the best of the old timers on the Country Roads show, Suzy Bogguss - the most underrated female country singer of all time, Suzy and Merle Haggard, Ashley Campbell.

ah yes - burn comparison - interesting that if we carried out that same test inside the barrel and under pressure we get an entirely different result - black is slow and smokeless fast. they are just different ..........................

[Knarley]

The weight/ volume is different from brand to brand. The size of the kernels, F FF FFG, is different from brand to brand. I would suspect even from batch to batch will differ. By the time you get it figured out, you'll have to start again.

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=Knarley;5581424]
The weight/ volume is different from brand to brand.
yep -----not a huge difference though -- and can be unrelated to the energy of the powder
(Wano weighs heavy compared to Goex or Swiss - but it shoots light = lower energy per grains)

The size of the kernels, F FF FFFG, is different from brand to brand.
definitely ---- does it matter ?

I would suspect even from batch to batch will differ.
that too - but again only small difference

By the time you get it figured out, you'll have to start again.
some fellers like to spend their lives figuring stuff out - others of us just like to go shoot!

[dtknowles]

Weigh charges for precision and measure them for convenience.

I load way more ammo with measured charges than I do with weighed charges, but I check my measures with a scale. Funny thing, some benchrest shooters use powder measures and not a scale.

Measured charges are almost always good enough.

Tim

[indian joe]

Weigh charges for precision and measure them for convenience.

I load way more ammo with measured charges than I do with weighed charges, but I check my measures with a scale. Funny thing, some benchrest shooters use powder measures and not a scale.

Measured charges are almost always good enough.

Tim

I was playing with a rotary measure and ungraphited blackpowder last night - after about twenty charges I got satisfactory consistency but it takes a lot more attention to technique than does smokeless powder - the black was running about + or - 4/10th grain, - smokeless ? about half that and easier to get ------ungraphited black makes the measure thing more difficult for sure.

[RyanJames170]

I was playing with a rotary measure and ungraphited blackpowder last night - after about twenty charges I got satisfactory consistency but it takes a lot more attention to technique than does smokeless powder - the black was running about + or - 4/10th grain, - smokeless ? about half that and easier to get ------ungraphited black makes the measure thing more difficult for sure.


What measure were you using?

[indian joe]

What measure were you using?

green one (Redding) cast iron body - looks to have a stainless drum - I replaced the (broken) plastic outlet piece with brass and added an 8 inch drop tube spout

[Lead pot]

Loading black powder, a couple /10's don't change the loads like smokeless does.

I use my old Redding for just busting the bowling pin hanging at 200 yards and even at the gong shoots when I have to reload at those matches when I run out of shells. This old powder drop has served me well since the maybe late 50's and it's well worn. It will drop very consistent within 2/10's if used properly.
But when I load for a match I will drop it in a pan and weigh the drop and I will sprinkle some like a pinch of salt with my fingers or take a pinch out of the pan :D it's like the blanky thing this little guy uses for security :D 314493

As far as the burn rate question.
Black has a burn rate it's just very fast and this is why they rate it as an explosive. The smaller and thinner the you spread it the slower it burns like a fuse. You pile it or confine it, it will blow. The larger the granulation the slower that burn rate
314492

[indian joe]

Loading black powder, a couple /10's don't change the loads like smokeless does.

I use my old Redding for just busting the bowling pin hanging at 200 yards and even at the gong shoots when I have to reload at those matches when I run out of shells. This old powder drop has served me well since the maybe late 50's and it's well worn. It will drop very consistent within 2/10's if used properly.
But when I load for a match I will drop it in a pan and weigh the drop and I will sprinkle some like a pinch of salt with my fingers or take a pinch out of the pan :D it's like the blanky thing this little guy uses for security :D 314493

As far as the burn rate question.
Black has a burn rate it's just very fast and this is why they rate it as an explosive. The smaller and thinner the you spread it the slower it burns like a fuse. You pile it or confine it, it will blow. The larger the granulation the slower that burn rate
314492

mine is later model (1980's at a guess) got the metering adjustment like a micrometer knob through the drum front to back - still playing with this (was given to me) --dunno that it will be any faster -- these plinker loads I just pour from a powder horn till the case is full up (homemade powder just compresses nice to load)