How much difference does 20 grains make

[Jevyod]

I am planning on starting to cast for my M&P 2.0 chambered in 10mm auto. I would like a load capable of bear defense. Seems like many guys say 200 grain is the minimum. Lee only makes a 180 grain mold and I plan on starting there. But will I want to also get a 200 grain mold for my bear loads? According to the numbers a 180 grain bullet at 1250 carries more energy than a 200 at 1150. Seems to me a 180 cast at 15 bhn and traveling at 1250 should give me the straight line penetration that I would need.

[Sasquatch-1]

I am planning on starting to cast for my M&P 2.0 chambered in 10mm auto. I would like a load capable of bear defense. Seems like many guys say 200 grain is the minimum. Lee only makes a 180 grain mold and I plan on starting there. But will I want to also get a 200 grain mold for my bear loads? According to the numbers a 180 grain bullet at 1250 carries more energy than a 200 at 1150. Seems to me a 180 cast at 15 bhn and traveling at 1250 should give me the straight line penetration that I would need.

I loaded up some .44 Mag loads a while back with what I thought was a 240 grain bullet and 9.2 grains of Titegroup. (This was the max load listed for the 240 grn. bullet.) Ended up that the bullet was a 250 Grain bullet. The load with the 240 grain bullet functioned fine. The load with the 250 grain bullet let the cases stuck in the cylinder. I had to drive the cases out with a squib rod. This was with a Ruger SRH so there was no damage to the revolver. Be careful when approaching max loads.

[44MAG#1]

I am planning on starting to cast for my M&P 2.0 chambered in 10mm auto. I would like a load capable of bear defense. Seems like many guys say 200 grain is the minimum. Lee only makes a 180 grain mold and I plan on starting there. But will I want to also get a 200 grain mold for my bear loads? According to the numbers a 180 grain bullet at 1250 carries more energy than a 200 at 1150. Seems to me a 180 cast at 15 bhn and traveling at 1250 should give me the straight line penetration that I would need.

You will need to prepare yourself for answers from those who have few firearms and shoot almost none to those that own more firearms than the US Army and shoot more than all the US Military put together and own almost no equipment to those that own thousands of dollars of equipment.
Myself I would experiment to my own satisfaction to try to determine the answer. Energy ISN'T the only factor.
In heavy bear loads offered by the custom ammo makers select 200 to 220 gr when they could load 180's just as easily and charge just as much money because it is custom ammo.
Just be prepared for many answers.

[405grain]

1. Try to avoid bears.
2. If a bear decides to eat you, penetration, rather than energy from a lighter & faster bullet, is your friend.
3. No matter what load you choose, it must cycle reliably in your firearm.
4. If you're going to be counting on a firearm to keep a bear from using one of your ribs as a toothpick, practice with it often so that you will be prepared if bad things happen.

[Winger Ed.]

The weight difference is more or less 10%.
Here, we often see guys drive their self crazy by over thinking, and splitting hairs on this sort of thing.

I'd be working and thinking along the lines of my own skills of boolit placement/accuracy and reliability more so than
the finer points of a 10% weight difference.

If that 10% difference for a 10mm is so critical---- get a bigger gun.
Whatever a 10mm can do to a bear, a .454 Casull or .500 S&W can do better.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

180 or 200 grain, an IT DEPENDS question. With a bullet of the same nose shape and hardness, you SHOULD get a little more penetration with the 200 grain. At handgun velocities, expansion is not a consideration, realistically, probably not much difference. Have NOT shot any charging bears, but quite a few elk, antelope and deer: after a while, it does not matter much, kind of like 308/270/30-06/358 or 150/165/180/200 grain, small differences yes, operationally significant, not really. Make haste slowly,carefully. Practice, Practice, Practice.

[Jevyod]

Part of what attracts me to the 180 is my mentor has one that I can use. I think I will cast a couple hundred with his mold and start sending lead downrange

[44MAG#1]

Part of what attracts me to the 180 is my mentor has one that I can use. I think I will cast a couple hundred with his mold and start sending lead downrange

While sending that lead downrange try to develope some testing methods to test the bullet to see if it will do as you want it to do.
Then try to get hold of some 200 gr bullets and try them.

[Nobade]

For practice and plinking use whatever you like. Shoot a lot and get really comfortable with your pistol. But if you're really afraid of encountering a bear, some good stout factory loads like the full power Norma stuff would probably be a better idea. And since most people never even see a bear, let alone have to shoot at one, a box of ammo should last forever.

[44MAG#1]

For practice and plinking use whatever you like. Shoot a lot and get really comfortable with your pistol. But if you're really afraid of encountering a bear, some good stout factory loads like the full power Norma stuff would probably be a better idea. And since most people never even see a bear, let alone have to shoot at one, a box of ammo should last forever.

What about a box of Underwood or Buffalo Bore?

[quilbilly]

You might want to weigh those Lee 180's. I have 200 gr Lee molds for 44 and 45 and they drop my alloy boolits at 213-216 gr. consistently.

[Kosh75287]

There's data on the Alliant Website which launches a 180 gr. JHP at just under 1300 f/s from a 5" barrel (probably in a universal receiver, but anyway...) using Blue Dot as a propellant. Using a cast flat point, with higher lubricity, I would be surprised if you could not get somewhere near that from your S&W.
Someone mentioned that penetration is your friend, around unfriendly bruins. I think this is right. So, firing your 180 gr. & 200 gr. handloads into one form or the other of penetration media and determining which drives deeper is important in the extreme. Whether you use ballistic gelatin or water-soaked newsprint, your medium may not exactly (perhaps not even closely) reflect its penetration performance in "agitated bear" medium, but one must start somewhere.

[44MAG#1]

People should remember that Speer used Wet Lap in testing their bullets years ago. Speer was always though pretty highly of in bullets.
Kinda like using wet newsprint in a way.
Old things become new when thought of by the younger generation.

[Nobade]

What about a box of Underwood or Buffalo Bore?

Sure, as long as they function 100% in that particular pistol.

[fredj338]

I am planning on starting to cast for my M&P 2.0 chambered in 10mm auto. I would like a load capable of bear defense. Seems like many guys say 200 grain is the minimum. Lee only makes a 180 grain mold and I plan on starting there. But will I want to also get a 200 grain mold for my bear loads? According to the numbers a 180 grain bullet at 1250 carries more energy than a 200 at 1150. Seems to me a 180 cast at 15 bhn and traveling at 1250 should give me the straight line penetration that I would need.

ITs not about the small increase in energy but the add'l mass for penetration. I am a 195-200gr guy for shooting big things, but a 180gr wnfp @ 1250fps isnt bouncing off yogi. A 200gr/10mm wnfp @ 1200fps will penetrate more than a 400gr/404jeff soft point & that is quite a lot.

[Bigslug]

314355
.32 caliber 130 grain at 1250 fps. Soft one stopped in three milk jugs, but the hard one did nine.

314356

230 grain .45 at 830 fps - also did nine.

314358
314359

135 grain 9mm at 1030 fps - it REALLY wanted to do ten, but plastic elasticity held it back.:lol:

These are all WFN profiles and something stupid-hard for the alloy in .45 and non-expanded .32; basically ACWW for the 9mm. Effectively six feet of water and 17 layers of jug plastic - 16 of those layers being the doubled boundaries. My thought is that if your Lee 180 grainer can duplicate this, you probably don't need a 200 grain mold.

[MT Gianni]

How big are the bears you expect to see?

[fredj338]

314355
.32 caliber 130 grain at 1250 fps. Soft one stopped in three milk jugs, but the hard one did nine.

314356

230 grain .45 at 830 fps - also did nine.

314358
314359

135 grain 9mm at 1030 fps - it REALLY wanted to do ten, but plastic elasticity held it back.:lol:

These are all WFN profiles and something stupid-hard for the alloy in .45 and non-expanded .32; basically ACWW for the 9mm. Effectively six feet of water and 17 layers of jug plastic - 16 of those layers being the doubled boundaries. My thought is that if your Lee 180 grainer can duplicate this, you probably don't need a 200 grain mold.

So SecDen with solids plays a roll as does nose width. So depending on nose width, the higher SD favors penetration. Why all your testing was about the same, though I am not a fan of water as a medium.
9/147 = 167
40/180 = 166
40/200 = 184
45/230 = 160

[billmc2]

Maybe a slight thread hijack but not to far afield. I've been following this thread with a nagging question in the back of my head.

In .45 I have a 230 gr Keith mold that I've been using for 45 ACP and 45 Colt. Using Accurate No 5 I'm able to get either cartridge to approximately 950 fps (although the larger Colt case requires more powder than the ACP). So I keep asking myself "what's the difference between the two?" Same bullet, same velocity. The answer I keep getting is "nothing". The only difference is the launching platform. Both guns I'm using are able to handle more if I choose to push them; but the question then arises "what am I actually gaining by doing that?". I'm using Lyman #2 that I bought from Roto metals.

I'm in the FL panhandle right next to AL. A friend, just across the state line, has video of a black bear just outside the porch at night, from 2 weeks ago. My house is down a dirt road out in the woods (no cell phone signal). My property backs up against a state wildlife management area. Another friend saw a cougar at the edge of his property about a week ago. The hogs are all over the place. Those are the three most likely dangerous critters I'm likely to come across (although I lost a 7 month old puppy to I believe a gator; I don't normally roam near the water.)

I'm fortunate to be able to step out the door and shoot in my yard. I've setup a little pistol range that'll go to about 50 yards.

I guess a more traditional load for the Colt would be a 250 or 255 gr bullet; would I really be gaining anything by doing that? Pro or Cons over choosing which platform to use? Suggestions welcome. ACP is 10+1, the Colt is 6. Thoughts?

[Jevyod]

How big are the bears you expect to see?

Most around here will come in the 200-300lb range

[Tatume]

My wife and I were out for a walk and I saw a black bear emerge from the trees to cross a field. He appeared to be in no hurry at all, just ambling along. Before I could point and say "look" he was gone.

We were in a New Jersey suburbs another day, and I saw what I thought was a statue of a bear next to a trash can. We were driving, so I stopped the car and we were discussing how life-like the statue was. Then the trash can exploded as if a stick of dynamite had gone off, and the "statue" bear ambled about eating bits and pieces. I was truly shocked at how quickly the bear demolished that trash can.

I've concluded that I'm not fast enough to draw, aim, and shoot a bear that ambushes me.

[MT Gianni]

Most around here will come in the 200-300lb range

180 gr will be all you need. I would feel OK with the 40 S&W and 180.

[44MAG#1]

180 gr will be all you need. I would feel OK with the 40 S&W and 180.

A 40 S&W with a 200 gr. cast FP around 20 BHN would give the warm fuzzies to me.

[charlie b]

....I guess a more traditional load for the Colt would be a 250 or 255 gr bullet; would I really be gaining anything by doing that? Pro or Cons over choosing which platform to use? Suggestions welcome. ACP is 10+1, the Colt is 6. Thoughts?

Probably should remember that the .45acp was meant to duplicate the .45LC but in an auto loader. Seems to do that well.

The modern .45LC pistols, like the Ruger BH, can push even harder if you choose to. With the normal increase in recoil.

So, which you choose is up to you. Which do you shoot better? Which is better at follow up shots? Which do you like to carry better?

FWIW, shooting/defending against animals on your property you can also consider setting a rifle or shotgun next to the door.

[Cast10]

I shoot the Lee 175 TC boolit in a Glock 20 and 16” carbine. By the time I powder coat and size, my alloy yields @ 180gr. My BHN is 11.3. It has stopped any hog/boar it has run in to out to 120 yards, so far.

That said, I would probably mix alloy to yield where you talking and then heat treat to get a bit harder. I don’t live in bear country, but I would imagine a hard pill for max penetration.

[GhostHawk]

I shot the Lee 1 75 gr boolit in my Hipoint Carbine in .40sw. Worked well.

I would say in lead 20 gr difference is not much.
In powder it can be a whole nother matter.

More important than the weight is bullet placement and keeping your cool.
Putting 3-4 shots in the neck/head in a nice tight group is going to have that critter feeling sick and looking for cover. Course Adrenalin can cover a lot.