Re, rooster red-super moly shoot off

[44man]

OK, guys, I went down and shot my .45 Vaquero today to show what happens and why 30 yd's is not the place to test from. It also shows nothing about group sizes, load preferences, lubes, primers or powder choices.
My first target is on the right and is the 335 gr LBT WLNGC, 21.5 gr's of 296, Fed 150 primer. The first 6 shots are in 9/16". after reloading, the last four (only had 10 of these) are higher due to a grip and rest change because it is hard to duplicate each little thing but they are still in 3/4".
I had a bunch of the Lyman 325 gr boolits that actually weigh 347 gr's. I shot 5 different loads from 19.5 to 21.5 gr's of 296. Factor in the different grip and rest changes between cylinder loadings and the load changes and I want you to point out what differences any of you can detect. Total group size was 1-3/4" for 30 shots. Most of you would think this would be fantastic for only one load! NO, not me, the first group would be my benchmark! Those 30 shots did not show me a thing. WHAT CHANGES WOULD YOU MAKE? Change the primer? Change the lube?
By the way the lube was Felix and I found no lead in the bore. The primers were Fed 150's. WHAT, no magnum primers with 296? Only if you want to triple group size! Only when I get to the .475 do I switch to Fed 155's.
The Lyman boolit will group as tight as the LBT but hits a little lower and to the right at all ranges but I don't have to hold different when deer hunting.

[Bass Ackward]

44,

I think you miss our point.

If you want to see how long 30 yards is, then quit .... cheating ( :grin: ) and put away those heavies. There is no sport there. Been there, done, that.

Anyone can get fair accuracy from a straight sided case once the bullet gets heavy enough to get consistent ignition. That is why you don't need magnum primers to get ignition with 296. If you have to use magnum primers above 475, then your bullets simply aren't heavy enough for the caliber, otherwise you could get away with standard primers there too.

It's all about ignition. More variables enter the equation and make it harder the lighter you go. I find more reloading skill is required to make light bullets work and work they will. It just depends on the game you want to play.

[44man]

That is a point I can differ with. In the .475 I use 400 to 440 gr boolits and I DO get tighter groups with the magnum primers. I have shot thousands of shots to prove it. However, in the .44 and .45 I do NOT, with any weight boolit from 240 gr's up to 347 gr's. All of my IHMSA loads used Fed 150's and 240 gr bullets with 296.
What I was trying to show after reading the other post about a lube test done at 30 yd's is that the distance is too close to prove a load, primer, lube or boolit. Most guys test a revolver at 25 yd's and I found it strange the fellow chose 30 yd's which is, I guess a little better then 25 yd's, but I would not shoot less then 50 yd's to see if anything works. I was merely showing that shooting at close range is next to useless. I can take the worst load I ever worked up and pack them in some very small groups at 25 yd's.
A lot of guys here are hunters and want to shoot out to 100 yd's. Why then, do they work at 25 yd's? I want to see tests and groups from 50 to 100 yd's and even out to 200 yd's.
You also leave out the twist rate when you say a light boolit will shoot good from such and such gun. For instance, the BFR .475 will NOT group with anything lighter then 400 gr's because it has a 1 in 15 twist. The Freedom .475 will NOT group with anything over 350 gr's because of it's 1 in 18 twist. I am talking GROUPS like the 5/8" 50 yd groups I got with my BFR at 50 yd's, not just hitting the big black spot.
Have you or anyone else here shot a Vaquero at 30 yd's, or 25 yd's and put the first six in 9/16"? Show me the meat! Post pictures!
Most guys believe what they read by the EXPERTS and will not go against what is printed. I am trying to get you to see for yourself that other things do work and work very well.
I would hate to show you what a .44 SRH can do at 400 meters, you would say I was cheating!

[MGySgt]

Yes - most of us are hunters and we use our pistols at times to hunt.

I for one won't shot at an animal much past 50. There is just too much room for error. A lot of Hunters do, I don't and won't.

The 'Test' you are talking about was done at 30 yards because that is what I picked to shoot - no other reason.

The concept of the test was - With a 'Plinking Round' where does the leading and lube cause the rounds not to group with the Standard load.

Which lube allowed for more shots between cleaning as this revolver is going to lead with this bullet.

This load while able to perform for most of my plinking/practice needs work. The load is accuracte in my 629, but that is scoped and I do not hunt with it. I would much rather hunt with my Sharps 45/90 and carry the SBH for, at least for me, a reasonable range - 50 yards or less.

Plus I like to shoot my SBH at 6X6 steel plates at 25 - 60 yards. For me it is enjoyable.

You read the test results - you don't like them, then conduct your own!

[44man]

Don't get me wrong, I don't like long shots for hunting either. I know your eyes are like mine and I had to wear my glasses to shoot those groups. I don't hunt with glasses. I wanted to show you what the guns are capable of even with open sights. How much worse a sight can you find then on the Vaquero? Those crummy sights have shot me some 1" groups at 75 yd's.
I am trying to convince you and all the other guys to move back and shoot at least 50 yd's to check components and loads. These are big bore revolvers and I regularly shoot at all distances out to 500 meters. I do shoot deer on occasion to 100 yd's because I have confidence in my loads and am used to shooting far.
I had to demonstrate that even with load changes, there is nothing to work from at close range. Even if I had shot six at a time on separate targets, the only thing I would see would be a difference in elevation and I would never be able to choose a load or see what a different lube or primer would actually do. Now shooting those same loads at 50 yd's would show drastic differences in groups.
I am not running anyone down either. I think if you shot farther, you would get more valid results and might start to rethink your loads to find what works better.
I really go off when I read all the magazines where a big bore is tested for accuracy, either a new gun or a bullet and see they were shot at 25 yd's and they state how super accurate it is.
A .22 or a packing pistol, yes, 25 yd's is OK. But why do they set a standard of 25 yd's for ALL handguns? Look at the new .460! It was designed to shoot flat to 200 yd's. Would any of you REALLY work loads at 25 yd's?
I want you to join me, not fight me. I want you to learn more and shoot better. I want you to try more things and not to rely on what some loading manual or magazine article says must be used or it will not work. ( my gig on the primer thing.)
So, don't get mad. I admit champing at the bit to get down and shoot so I could show you.

[Buckshot]

................I can see longer range pistol shooting as a viable thing to do as it magnifies all the little things into bigger more visible ques. There are a couple LRBP shooters who frequent our range and all their load development is done at 200 yards. To them that is the minimum range that proves anything. I see their point. Me? I shoot mostly at 50 yards for numerous reasons not germane to the thread.

I do all my pistol shooting at 25 yards for about the same reasons I shoot most of my rifles at 50 yards. For me, my pistols are short range propositions equiped as they are and with my eyes, equiped as THEY are. It's just a cast iron puppy mother of an ordeal to try and resolve the target and the sights (such as they are) at lengthlier ranges, and place the blame where it belongs.

Last Tuesday one of the Burrito bunch had gotten his new Khar (?) 9mm CCW carry peestol. He was shooting it at 7 yds and asked me if I'd like to try. Sure I says, and took the tiny little thing and put 5 rounds in 1.25" right there at 6 o'clock on the bull. I was plenty flabbergasted as I've shot several Titans, and similar pistols and had shots hit pretty much everywhere on the bull.

None of my handguns have scopes. For me to shoot at 50 yards would be a waste of components most likely 8). If I or someone else had scoped handguns I could surely see the utility.

I will admit to doing my share of popping off the last few rounds in a box at the 200 meter gong. Sometimes offhand, but that's just playing.

..................Buckshot

[Bass Ackward]

44,

Then you got my point about bullet weight. The 44 has a twist rate that supports a bullet weight that will produce the case volumes to work with standard primers and 296. It's a balance. But magnum primers can have a place if lighter bullets are used. That is why powder speeds are relative in how they burn and must be tried to see what works. Everything from case neck tension to crimp can mean the difference between why one guy swears by something and another says it burns dirty for him.

If the 475 will not perform with standard primers using that bullet weight, then a faster powder could be necessary if you want to establish that same cartridge / powder balance that you currently enjoy in the 44. Or you can use magnum primers to compensate. The hardest thing for most people to rationalize is that as case diameter (capacity) increases, they are getting closer to shotgun like ignition conditions where fairly fast powders, plastic shot covers and a stiff folded crimp are required to launch a heavy weight ( ounce and change) while producing consistent ignition. Who knows where that cut off actually is?

As far as my quoted distances, I shoot from the lounger on the deck using my knees which happens to be 30 yards from the back stop. Actual distance may be 31 or 32 yards but who cares. If I want closer or farther, I have to take off the slippers and put on shoes and it all get's to be a mess this time of year. :grin:

[44man]

OK, you have all made good sense and I respect that. The more you tell me the better I understand.
I just have this thing I guess, like shooting archery where I practice from 40 to 60 yd's but shoot at deer at 15 to 20 yd's. I do the same with handguns where I shoot to 500 meters but still try to limit deer shots to 20 yd's. Do I need the extreme accuracy I try for? Yes, because that's what it's all about and it's fun. If not for the 50 years of working with these wheel guns I would be extremely bored out of my skull. When I see what even a Ruger is capable of I want to pass it on. IHMSA is what turned my thinking around and made me spend years perfecting my loading techniques and it has paid off. If a gun can't be made to shoot and I can't fix it, I get rid of it.
I have to realize that most of you shoot for fun and pleasure and are very happy. My problem is that I am a nut with a never ending quest. I have a 200 yd range down in my woods and I can go from the bench to try something in a matter of minutes and I seem to spend every hour of the day thinking of things even to the point of making my own boolit moulds. The idea of a one inch group at 100 yd's from an off the shelf revolver has gotten very close, might not be possible but I keep trying.
So forgive me if you think I am trying to push you a little. Besides, I enjoy dickering with you guys.

[David R]

44 man

"in search of the holy grail"

[44man]

Praise the Lord!

[1Shirt]

:coffeecom As this thread goes, Buckshot speaks words of wisdom and common sense. While there are exceptions, handguns particularly short bbls (4" and under) are desighed to be short range propositins with (at least for me), 25 yds being about max. 15 yds is probably more reasonable for me with old eyes and less than steady hands. I carry a 357 when I am hunting, but only as a close range, or finisher proposition, and then only because I enjoy it. On the other hand it is extra weight if I am covering any distance on foot. Just my 2 cents on the subject.
1Shirt!

[Blackwater]

Guys, I'm just reading all this and wondering, "how much does expansion ratio" between calibers affect all this? I know how it generally works in rifles, but when you've got a .475" or .500" hole in the barrel, and the cylinder length limits case capacity, it looks to me, the uninitiated (mostly), like the .475's (particularly the shorter Ruger case) and .500's would HAVE to have a pretty low expansion ratio, and thus, would GENERALLY require a somewhat faster powder, at least when compared to a .44 or .41 or .357. Can anyone clue me in on all this? I know some stout loads are dished up with 296 and other slow powders. Is this at least a partial cause for the discrepancies noted???? Just wondering. I'd really like a Redhawk in .475, but just can't conjur up any real reason for something larger than the .44 for my use where I live .... other than just as a plaything, of course, and an "educational" tool.

[Bass Ackward]

Guys, I'm just reading all this and wondering, "how much does expansion ratio" between calibers affect all this? I know how it generally works in rifles, but when you've got a .475" or .500" hole in the barrel, and the cylinder length limits case capacity, it looks to me, the uninitiated (mostly), like the .475's (particularly the shorter Ruger case) and .500's would HAVE to have a pretty low expansion ratio, and thus, would GENERALLY require a somewhat faster powder, at least when compared to a .44 or .41 or .357. Can anyone clue me in on all this? I know some stout loads are dished up with 296 and other slow powders. Is this at least a partial cause for the discrepancies noted???? Just wondering. I'd really like a Redhawk in .475, but just can't conjur up any real reason for something larger than the .44 for my use where I live .... other than just as a plaything, of course, and an "educational" tool.


I would say that you got a pretty fair handle on it from my perspective.

[44man]

I have worked with some faster powders in the .475 Linebaugh. The very best for accuracy is 15 gr's of HS-6 with the 400 gr boolit. I didn't like any of the other powders because none showed good accuracy compared to HS-6 and 296. 296 gives me the highest velocity in both the Linebaugh and the .480 cases. I never load right to max after working loads because the most accurate is always a little below that. I go to the highest load and back down to the tightest grouping load.
The shorter .480 case might do all right with a faster powder but the highest velocity is still with the slow powders. I have found no difference in the way the larger bores work compared to the .44 and .45. In fact they have proven easier to work with and more consistant then the .44. I have shot boolits from 325 up to 440 gr's and never had poor groups, with one exception. The lighter boolits made the largest groups but were still in the acceptable range. The 1 in 15 twist of the BFR favors the 400 and up range. I can grab any heavy boolit, pick any load and it will shoot nice round groups at 50 yd's but by working loads, they will get exceptional. The only boolit that shot bad was the light, Keith type. Didn't shoot with anything. But the same weight boolit in the LBT style shot good.
There may be a whole range of fast powders that will work OK in them but I prefer to stick with the two that work the best for me. Can't beat results. The last five shot group I shot at 50 yd's with 296 went into 5/8". HS-6 has gone under an inch. I have made it a habit of shooting pop cans at 100 yd's with almost never a miss. Black walnuts at 50 yd's vaporize.
I find the .480 case in the Linebaugh is not as accurate as the longer case so I quit using them. Takes more pressure to get close to the accuracy from the heavy boolits and I can't reach the point the twist requires.
The .475 BFR will outshoot any revolver I have. One thing I notice about it is that the muzzle blast is not bad. I hunt without ear plugs and it does not hurt my ears for the few shots taken.
I think you would like the SRH .480. With a little slower twist, it should be very forgiving as to what you want to shoot.
You have to explain what discrepancies have been noted as I have found none, at least with the Linebaugh brass.
Sorry I can't explain anything about expansion ratios, I can only say how great they shoot.