.416 accuracy woes

[Planeguy]

I need some ideas on how to proceed. I cast a bunch of boolits for my .416 Ruger Alaskan. My boolits are gas checked 350 grainers from an NOE mould. The weight variation is quite low for a beginner. Boolits are water dropped and sized to .417. Using W-748 for powder, weighed each charge. I beat myself up shooting 25 of these beauties at the range. This load doesn't kick like jacketed bullet loads but it's no cup cake either. I didn't get anything you could call a group. Boolits landed everywhere except in the vicinity of each other. This rifle will shoot Swift A-frames into an inch and a half at 100 yards all day. Any ideas? I am an experienced shooter and handloader but new to casting.
Thanks,
Howard (planeguy)

[pworley1]

There many many variables that go in to getting a good cast load. The place to start is to slug your bore. .417 may be just what you need but you will probably need at least .418. All the following will affect the accuracy once you find the right diameter bullet. The bullet weight, the powder type, the amount of powder, the lube you use or powder coating, gas checked or not, the over all length of your bullets. A small change in powder charge can really change the size of your groups. Good luck with your efforts.

[rp85]

good evening;

shooting both 375Wby & 375h&h rifles but hate recoil. both rifles were bought to shoot only cast at paper.

suggest think slow, suggest think Red Dot powder, suggest think 5744 if you can find it, or imr 3031 with a filler. suggestions worked wonders with recoil and accuracy in both rifles. slow = 1400 -1950 fps.

rp

[Larry Gibson]

Lyman's CBH #4 has Ruger 416 loads using a 350 gr cast bullet including with 748. You don't mention the load of 748 you're using?

[stubshaft]

I presume that there is absolutely NO copper fouling in the barrel. I've had pretty good success in my 375 H&H and 458 WM using Unique (love that stuff).

[Planeguy]

I am using loads from the Lyman book 65 gr. of 748 is the last one I tried. I'm not sensitive to recoil, looking for hunting loads not just paper punching. However, enough .416 shooting will wear on you.
Haven't has this much trouble with accuracy since I started working with a Ruger no.1 in .257 wby.

[Planeguy]

I started this process by doing a thorough cleaning of the bore including copper removal so I dont think that's a problem. Bullet lube is canuba red.

[waksupi]

I suspect your bullets are undersized.

[Tatume]

... looking for hunting loads not just paper punching. . . .

If by this you mean you're planning to hunt African dangerous game or brown bears with hard cast bullets, then by all means continue experimenting until you have what you need. But if you are hunting deer, you can drop the muzzle velocity to a comfortable level and still have plenty of power. Softer bullets might be appropriate too.

[Planeguy]

I will slug the bore and see where that leads. My goal is African game but thats a couple years away. Still planning everything out. With the state the world is in who knows if it will be doable. I hunt hogs with the .416 just to be intimately familiar with its ways when the time comes. Shooting at the range is no substitute for real world hunting practice in my book.

Howard

[Larry Gibson]

Size the bullets to a tight slip fit in the chamber throat not barrel groove diameter.

What GCs?

[Planeguy]

I'm using Gator gas checks

[waksupi]

I will slug the bore and see where that leads. My goal is African game but thats a couple years away. Still planning everything out. With the state the world is in who knows if it will be doable. I hunt hogs with the .416 just to be intimately familiar with its ways when the time comes. Shooting at the range is no substitute for real world hunting practice in my book.

Howard

You want a bullet diameter that will slip into a fired case with a slight bit of resistance. That will fit the throat.

[Planeguy]

Thank you for that tip

[Larry Gibson]

Let me rephrase the question, what size GCs as in diameter and thickness?

[Planeguy]

I guess I bought a sack of .416 gas checks from NOE that are Gator brand. I didn't think to measure them

[Larry Gibson]

I guess I bought a sack of .416 gas checks from NOE that are Gator brand. I didn't think to measure them

Do they fit the bullet shank and size to .417?

[Planeguy]

They seem to fit the bullet shank. I have no problem running them through a lube/size die and they have a slightly swaged appearanceas though they are sizing correctly. I found a fired boolit in the sand berm at the range. Gas check still in place so I'm thinkinking they crimp on well.

[Planeguy]

I tried a sized boolit in an unsized, fired case. It took a bit of force to get the boolit into the case, but it went with hand pressure.

[Larry Gibson]

I am using loads from the Lyman book 65 gr. of 748 is the last one I tried. I'm not sensitive to recoil, looking for hunting loads not just paper punching. However, enough .416 shooting will wear on you.
Haven't has this much trouble with accuracy since I started working with a Ruger no.1 in .257 wby.

GCs, lube and sizing should not be the problem. Suggest dropping down to 60 gr of 748 to see if accuracy improves around 2000 fps. If so you can work up until just before accuracy goes south. If that doesn't work, I'd look at a different powder, an extruded powder such as IMR 4895. Might keep in mind a 350 gr .416 caliber bullet at 2000 fps or more isn't exactly for "paper punching". It'll kill anything on this continent.

[Planeguy]

Ok will do. I will be headed to the range Tuesday weather permitting. I gave the bore another thorough cleaning just to be certain it was free of fouling. If I could get this combo accurate enough for hogs and black bears with a lighter load I would call it a win. Just looking for the satisfaction of bagging something with my own boolits.

[Planeguy]

I have a good bit of IMR-4895 I can work up loads with as well as the748. Would Varget be a possible option?

[TurnipEaterDown]

The "front end" of a 416 Ruger chamber looks like it doesn't have any notably "bad" characteristics for cast bullets.

314274


I don't have a 416 Ruger, but do have a 416 Taylor, so maybe comments on that would be of use in solving your issue.

I tried 11 different powders for velocities in my 416 Taylor under a 375 gr cast bullet (Accurate 42-360C mold, my alloy lubed & checked 375 gr, sized 0.417", water quenched likely brinell ~ 20 as I tested other bullets w/ similar alloy mix).
I used this bullet for powder evaluations (selection of powder to use under this & other bullets as well) and also for groups for something "cheap(er)".

I had good luck w/ stick powders IMR 3031, 4895 & 4064 for groups (5 shots, generally 1.25" - 1.875", 100 yds) when velocity was ~ 1900 fps. Above that, accuracy went south. I didn't weight sort bullets, just looked them over before finishing in sizer. I didn't try to maximize velocity for groups w/ cast (i.e. I didn't tinker w/ sizing & alloy), I just switch to Jacketed for max performance.

Didn't really like the behavior of ball H335, W748 or W760 in the 416 Taylor. Energy progression against charge weight was not smooth.
I did not shoot groups with these powders due to this behavior and the fact that I usually get better accuracy w/ cast using stick than ball (multiple other cartridges, but extrapolating that could just be my bias).

I didn't shoot Varget for groups, did for velocity, but (in the Taylor) it cracked a primer in velocity tests before I reached target energy (happened at 4000 ft*lb, I target max at 4600 ft*lb).

I liked the behavior of RL 17 in this cartridge and the 35 Whelen Improved, which I think many would scoff at. Would not dismiss trying it in the 416 Ruger. One of my favorites in that 35, and it gave very predictable behavior in Taylor w/ nice fill ratio.

[Planeguy]

That's good info. I have also not weight sorted but weighed random samples of my boolits. They generally came out very close in weight after I figured out how to cast consistently with no wrinkles or other defects. Others have also suggested to keep the velocity down a bit. This is my first real attempt at load development with cast boolits. The Taylor is similar enough to the Ruger that some sources use the same data for both. Thank you,

Howard

[BABore]

Search for "Hardcast416taylor" on this forum. He is no longer with us, but has a lot of good information on the 416 Taylor. I designed and built one of the original boolit designs he used. I now own his rifle and got it just before he passed. I'm using the same 400 grain GC boolit that I designed. Sized 0.418. Running it full velocity with IMR 3031. Looked it up. I was using 64 grains of IMR 3031 for 2,250 fps.

[Planeguy]

Loaded 10 rounds with 60.5 grains of IMR 4895. Results were not encouraging. The problem still eludes me. After digging out my notes on the W 748 test loads the results with 4895 were actually a little worse. 10 rounds landed on a 6 inch circle at 100 yards but thats about all I can say. The bolt closes a slight bit hard. Are my boolits oversized?

[BABore]

You said you were going to slug the barrel. Did you?

You can run a boolit diameter as big as will fit into a preferably once fired case irregardless of groove diameter. Slugging the bore will tell you how much oversize the boolit will be. The barrel makes an excellent sizer. In rare cases, because of brass neck thickness and/or chamber neck dimensions, you can't chamber a boolit big enough for the barrel.

Bottom line is YOU need to know these dimensions. Nobody here can tell you if your boolit is too big or too small without them.

[MostlyOnThePaper]

Did you actually measure the size bullet or are you assuming it's diameter based on what the sizer die is marked? That could bite your butt too, especially if it's a Lee push through. The "Precision" in their name can be optimistic at times.

[dverna]

There is no advantage in using cast bullets for serious work in the modern CF rifle. I suppose if you need to stroke your ego and kill something with a bullet you cast, feeding one of the deadly sins (pride) serves as justification.

I will not even use cast bullets to harvest deer as they are so inferior for how I hunt.

If I was planning to invest in an African adventure, I would select the best bullets available. A $1.50 a shot for a jacketed bullet seems like a minuscule added cost to hunt Africa.

[Planeguy]

Very helpful

[Planeguy]

Back to the topic at hand, namely a new boolit caster trying to improve accuracy. I have not yet slugged my barrel. I consider everything you gentlemen say seriously, it will be my next step. I have an rcbs lube/sizer with their dies. I will also measure my boolits for actual dimension instead of relying on the size stamped on the die, I had not really thought of that as an issue.

[414gates]

I found velocity is critical with lead bullets in my big bores. I get the best results when I keep the velocity to under 2100 fps. Beyond that the bullets seems to strip in the rifling, and harder lead doesn't make any difference.

Unless it's paper patched - I've taken my .375H&H to 2400 with 245 grain paper patched cast.

For my .416 Ruger, I had a custom mould made. It drops 420 grains at .426. I size down in two passes, .421 then a .417 push through sizer.

Powder coat, no gas check, and lead is BHN 16. Accuracy for me is a clay pigeon at 30 meters.

https://ysterhout.net/images/big-bore-casting/sized-416.jpg

[Planeguy]

I got my best accuracy so far with the highest velocity load I tried. Slowing it down really spread out the pattern. Mind you this was with 2 different powders so more variables involved. My next shooting session I will take the chronograph and get a better flavor for how velocities are really running. This is a lot of info. I am inclined to change 1 thing at a time and see what happens. Will measure actual boolit diameter next

[Good Cheer]

If it was me I'd try a powder so slow that there were unburned granules left in the bore.
And I'd be very calculating about the width of the lands versus the grooves and how much lead I could stick up the bore.

[414gates]

I have a good bit of IMR-4895 I can work up loads with as well as the748. Would Varget be a possible option?

Yes, Varget is the burn rate that works in the .416 Ruger. I've used IMR 4166 which is very close to Varget.


Loaded 10 rounds with 60.5 grains of IMR 4895. Results were not encouraging. The problem still eludes me. After digging out my notes on the W 748 test loads the results with 4895 were actually a little worse. 10 rounds landed on a 6 inch circle at 100 yards but thats about all I can say. The bolt closes a slight bit hard. Are my boolits oversized?

4895 is a little quick, IMO, retry that load with Varget for a lower pressure curve. 748 seems to be a Varget equivalent, but I have no experience with it.

You're not saying if you're shooting off-hand, iron sights or scope, or bench.

10 rounds into 6 MOA is not bad for the caliber at 100, especially off-hand. 10 rounds one after the other is great recoil management.

The Alaskan is capable of sub-moa with jacketed bullets and a scope off a bench, pretty much any relevant bullet / powder combination.

https://ysterhout.net/images/416Ruger/245_S355_group.png

[Planeguy]

Rifle has a 1-6 X VariX6 HD leuo on it. Fired off of a lead sled rest. Jacketed bullets are no problem but thats another issue. Varget is my next plan for powder. Still need to establish actual bore diameter.

[Planeguy]

My boolits measure at .418 will be slugging the barrel as soon as I can find some soft lead.

[dverna]

I love Varget but it is not easy to get. I am saving mine for loads that matter.

Another powder that is similar to Varget is 4064. It is a tad faster. One of my criteria for a powder is that it not be temperature sensitive as I can be shooting in -20 to 95 degree conditions. 4064 exhibits a 20 fps variation over a temperature difference of 100 degress.

Might another option for you and it should be a bit cheaper and easier to get.