Why use over powder wad?

[dtknowles]

Why do people use an over powder wad? Seems unnecessary. I don't use one in a muzzleloader. Why would I put one in a cartridge? Waste of space, added component and more useless weight to be propelled out the barrel.
Tim

[38-72]

Short answer: Because my gun is more accurate when I use a wad.

[Harter66]

It derives from BP and shot shells .
In BP it keeps the lube out of the powder and provides a buffer between lube cookies bullet and powder .
It's part of the wad stack in shot shells and likely in it's original form the same as in BP .

For some users it's seal , spacer , filler , and possibly even a gas check . If I had the right hole punches it would be a base card for paper patch rolled inside the patch .

[indian joe]

Short answer: Because my gun is more accurate when I use a wad.

this !!!!!!

[freakonaleash]

Keeps gas from cutting the base of your bullet and leading your barrel. I only use a card in rifle cartridges. Doesn't seem to make much difference in revolvers. I often shoot gas checks instead of using a card If I have a mold and get good black powder results.

[William Yanda]

Yeah, but I cross my fingers, stand on one foot, put my thumb on my nose, all in pursuit of of some unnamed goal.

[dogrunner]

And just what's wrong with puttin' your thumb on your nose ??

[dtknowles]

Short answer: Because my gun is more accurate when I use a wad.

Yeah, I can get with that. So, do you start without the wad and then add it if you don't get good accuracy or do you just use a wad and assume it helps. Seems like a lot of testing. I have been using a wad with my 450 BPE but going without the wad in 12.7x44R and have acceptable accuracy but then I am not shooting matches. These guns have express sights, you know the folding leaves type with no adjustment except drifting in the dovetails.

Somebody mentioned grease cookie. I have not use them. I guess that is to control fouling. Again, not something I used in a muzzleloader. Again, not shooting matches so fouling is not really an issue either. Except for testing most I would expect to shoot in action would be 2 or three down each barrel. Locally the rolling block qualifies as primitive so old muzzleloading seasons and rules apply.

[indian joe]

Yeah, I can get with that. So, do you start without the wad and then add it if you don't get good accuracy or do you just use a wad and assume it helps. Seems like a lot of testing. I have been using a wad with my 450 BPE but going without the wad in 12.7x44R and have acceptable accuracy but then I am not shooting matches. These guns have express sights, you know the folding leaves type with no adjustment except drifting in the dovetails.

Somebody mentioned grease cookie. I have not use them. I guess that is to control fouling. Again, not something I used in a muzzleloader. Again, not shooting matches so fouling is not really an issue either. Except for testing most I would expect to shoot in action would be 2 or three down each barrel. Locally the rolling block qualifies as primitive so old muzzleloading seasons and rules apply.

I started without wads - shot that way for a good while - then one day some SA told me you can never get a cowboy gun to shoot good enough to be competitive at longrange - he might have been right but that got up my nose anyway. I started to get serious with a Uberti 1876. Once I had a load sorted out overpowder wads took it from shooting 3inch groups at 100yards to 2 inch or a tad better (if I did my bit which wasnt always!)

Really I doubt you will pick it with open leaf sights (I couldnt anyway) I have a good tang sight and a tunnel front sight with target inserts on that gun.

Lube cookies ? they are a substitute for a poor choice in boolits = a design that does not carry enough grease to do the job properly in the first place. I refuse to use em - they are a PITA - lube bleeds into the powder - wads stick to the boolit base - go get a decent boolit !!!

Something you might need to pay attention to - where does the first shot (clean barrel) go in relation to the next couple (follow up shots) I would put two targets up side by side and let those three rip just like if you were hunting, first shot into one target then rip the follow up shots into the second target - some guns wont be much different others might put that cold, clean bore shot 4 to 6 inches away from the follow up - need to know this I reckon.

[missionary5155]

And a cereal box wad takes care of issues in our 50-95-350 down to a 44 Wesson.
We strive to cast a "perfect / square" base, then explode / slam hard BP grains into it ?

[country gent]

One that hasnt been mentioned is before shooting.I put the heavy wad in before I compress the charge, it seems to give a better compression and surface for the bullet to sit on.

[DAVIDMAGNUM]

To reiterate. Let your rifle tell you if it wants a wad or not. I only shoot the 44WCF and out to a maximum of 200 meters. I tried wads of a few different materials and thicknesses. No wad was always more accurate. This is with my rifle, Swiss 2f and a charge of 37gr (more or less). I know that 45-70 and other big bore rifle cartridges are a different animal. So take my info with a grain of salt.

[indian joe]

To reiterate. Let your rifle tell you if it wants a wad or not. I only shoot the 44WCF and out to a maximum of 200 meters. I tried wads of a few different materials and thicknesses. No wad was always more accurate. This is with my rifle, Swiss 2f and a charge of 37gr (more or less). I know that 45-70 and other big bore rifle cartridges are a different animal. So take my info with a grain of salt.

maybe its the shorter cases? - I never saw an advantage with 44/40 or 38/40 but definitely yes with bigger stuff (45/70 - 45/75)

[dtknowles]

Thanks for all the interest and advice. I think I will stick with wads in the 450 BPE (big case, lots of room and higher velocity). I think the jury is still out on the 12.7x44R, I might do some comparisons with and without. I will be checking clean bore first shot point of impact vs. follow up shots. I don't understand why use two targets, I guess you are thinking no time to spot the first shot before shooting the second one.

Tim

[FrankJD]

Most may find that a .060" LDPE wad will improve accuracy ... it did for me and PPBs.

[indian joe]

Thanks for all the interest and advice. I think I will stick with wads in the 450 BPE (big case, lots of room and higher velocity). I think the jury is still out on the 12.7x44R, I might do some comparisons with and without. I will be checking clean bore first shot point of impact vs. follow up shots. I don't understand why use two targets, I guess you are thinking no time to spot the first shot before shooting the second one.

Tim

yep! let em rip just like ya would in the field then go look. It might not make a difference - but ..........it might . I have a .54 muzzleloader I load hard and it does it every time clean and cold is about 4 inches out of the group - could be a number of things - one into the mound cures the problem. If I was hunting with it I would take the trouble to sight it in for the first shot and correct for the follow up.

[indian joe]

Most may find that a .060" LDPE wad will improve accuracy ... it did for me and PPBs.

I'm using .045 HDPE (salvage from water containers) cant find the low density stuff locally.

[Drydock]

In a muzzleloader, you want the powder ignition to distort the bullet into the rifling. In a cartridge gun, with the bullet already at groove diameter, you want the powder ignition to distort the bullet as little as possible for best accuracy. The larger the powder charge, the more critical this becomes.

[GregLaROCHE]

I like to use a grease cookie so I always use a card on top of the BP before compressing it. Even without a grease cookie, I would use a card if loading greased boolit’s. Maybe you wouldn’t need one if you used PCed boolits.

[Hahndorf1874]

A mate shooting a big barrelled front loader 40 cal, uses a LDP wad on the powder, 40/1 greaser, last time out was shooting sub MOA 100 yds. It one of those under hammer monsters not sure of the brand. Cheers Mal in au.

[Gobeyond]

I used two milk carton discs. One over powder one to free the bullet. The second was really to keep lube cookie off base.

[tmanbuckhunter]

A wad in BPCR serves many purposes. It allows one to compress the powder evenly, it keeps lube out of the powder, it can take up extra space if need be, but it seems most of you don't understand the primary purpose for a wad.

The primary purpose of it, at least for those of us in the competitive long range game, is the wad protects the base of the bullet. It acts as a gas check to stop gas cutting, and it also keeps the base of the bullet from getting deformed by granules of powder, or that kick in the behind when powder is ignited. We cast bullets. It's what this whole entire forum is about, so we should all know that the base of the bullet is the most important part of it. You're not going to win anything unless you make every effort possible to have perfect bases, and protect the bases of those bullets.

[jednorris]

I am a bit confused, if you want your gun to be legal for Muzzleloader season, how can you use a cartridge Rifle?

[dtknowles]

I am a bit confused, if you want your gun to be legal for Muzzleloader season, how can you use a cartridge Rifle?

Locally, the season is called primitive and allows cartridge single shot rifles more than 45 caliber and must have an external hammer.
Tim

[indian joe]

Locally, the season is called primitive and allows cartridge single shot rifles more than 45 caliber and must have an external hammer.
Tim

thats proly more in the spirit of the game than the fake sabot shooting so called muzzleloaders.........................

[freakonaleash]

Can't argue with that! Iowa now allows rifles with straight sided cartridges in their shotgun season. Has to be .35 to.50. Sounds like an excellent time to deer hunt again. One of my old lever guns will kill again!

[dirtball]

Can't argue with that! Iowa now allows rifles with straight sided cartridges in their shotgun season. Has to be .35 to.50. Sounds like an excellent time to deer hunt again. One of my old lever guns will kill again!

So, the old 40-82 Winchester which has a slight bottle neck would NOT be legal, but the 40-82 Rhodes (both formed from 45-90 brass) which has no bottle neck WOULD be legal. That makes NO sence.

[tmanbuckhunter]

So, the old 40-82 Winchester which has a slight bottle neck would NOT be legal, but the 40-82 Rhodes (both formed from 45-90 brass) which has no bottle neck WOULD be legal. That makes NO sence.

For some reason I doubt the average game warden knows very much about original BPC's. To the untrained eye a 40/82 looks like a straightwall case.

[freakonaleash]

I hope you're right!

[gunther]

The Ky game wardens I used to deal with would give you an opinion if you showed them the cartridge (40-82) if you asked them, and didn't want it in writing. Official opinions can get complicated. The officer you will see in the woods is the one you want to get to know.

[Castaway]

You could always explain the 40-82 Win is straight walled except for the part the grips the bullet and that has to be parallel. You’d definitely be complying with the spirit of the law

[SoonerEd]

dtknowles,

I think you got a typo...35 cal and above in LA.

[Funky]

Thanks everyone, I was wondering the same, now one more thing that I don't know. Good Luck and Good Shooting Chris

[Scrounge]

Why do people use an over powder wad? Seems unnecessary. I don't use one in a muzzleloader. Why would I put one in a cartridge? Waste of space, added component and more useless weight to be propelled out the barrel.
Tim

Unless you're using bulky powders, the powder spreads out in the cartridge, and ignition is more variable. And over powder wad confines the powder to a smaller volume of space so you get a more consistent burn. You can see it easily in a transparent pill bottle that's not full. Stand it on the base, and all the pills are on the bottom, where the primer is in a cartridge. Lay the bottle on it's side, and rattle it about a bit, and they spread all down the side of the cartridge. Take the same bottle of pills, and put a wad of cotton in it. At least most of the pills will remain in the bottom of the bottle when it's on its side.

More consistent ignition gets you more consistent pressures, which get you more consistent velocities, which gets you better accuracy.

HTH!

Bill

[Scrounge]

A wad in BPCR serves many purposes. It allows one to compress the powder evenly, it keeps lube out of the powder, it can take up extra space if need be, but it seems most of you don't understand the primary purpose for a wad.

The primary purpose of it, at least for those of us in the competitive long range game, is the wad protects the base of the bullet. It acts as a gas check to stop gas cutting, and it also keeps the base of the bullet from getting deformed by granules of powder, or that kick in the behind when powder is ignited. We cast bullets. It's what this whole entire forum is about, so we should all know that the base of the bullet is the most important part of it. You're not going to win anything unless you make every effort possible to have perfect bases, and protect the bases of those bullets.

Yes, and all that, too!

[Dave T]

So, the old 40-82 Winchester which has a slight bottle neck would NOT be legal, but the 40-82 Rhodes (both formed from 45-90 brass) which has no bottle neck WOULD be legal. That makes NO sence.

You're dealing with a government agency. They don't have to make sense, in fact they usually don't.

Dave

[dtknowles]

Unless you're using bulky powders, the powder spreads out in the cartridge, and ignition is more variable. And over powder wad confines the powder to a smaller volume of space so you get a more consistent burn. You can see it easily in a transparent pill bottle that's not full. Stand it on the base, and all the pills are on the bottom, where the primer is in a cartridge. Lay the bottle on it's side, and rattle it about a bit, and they spread all down the side of the cartridge. Take the same bottle of pills, and put a wad of cotton in it. At least most of the pills will remain in the bottom of the bottle when it's on its side.

More consistent ignition gets you more consistent pressures, which get you more consistent velocities, which gets you better accuracy.

HTH!

Bill

This was originally a black powder cartridge thread.

Tim

[dtknowles]

dtknowles,

I think you got a typo...35 cal and above in LA.

I will not claim it was a typo, it was my ignorance. I really thought it was 45 and up.

Tim

[414gates]

When you have a large amount of powder, you want it to ignite where it's put.

If a column of powder gets pushed out to the middle of the barrel before complete ignition, I expect life can get interesting.

A wad can keep the powder 'together' for longer.

[freakonaleash]

My black powder always stays where it's supposed to. I think it probably would if I didn't use a wad too. I wouldn't use a wad with smokeless. I have found AA 5744 doesn't need it. Or IMR 4198 if we're going to switch over to talking about smokeless on the black powder cartridge forum.

[Gobeyond]

In a muzzleloader, you want the powder ignition to distort the bullet into the rifling. In a cartridge gun, with the bullet already at groove diameter, you want the powder ignition to distort the bullet as little as possible for best accuracy. The larger the powder charge, the more critical this becomes.

Is that true about distorting a cartridge bullet less? That’s why your using 16:1! I was trying to use 40:1 or pure in the 43 Mauser with smallish bullets. So in other calibers it’s different?

[tmanbuckhunter]

Is that true about distorting a cartridge bullet less? That’s why your using 16:1! I was trying to use 40:1 or pure in the 43 Mauser with smallish bullets. So in other calibers it’s different?

That's the main point of a wad, protecting the base of the bullet. It's the most important part. Without it you will never see the type of accuracy you expect, past 300 yards anyways.

[indian joe]

That's the main point of a wad, protecting the base of the bullet. It's the most important part. Without it you will never see the type of accuracy you expect, past 300 yards anyways.

Its pretty simple really - expect an improvement in accuracy - if ya dont see it -dont do it

I use wads in the longer cases 38/55, 45/70, 45/75
dont bother with the shorter stuff 38/40, 44/40 dont try as hard or expect as much of those either (all blackpowder)

[tmanbuckhunter]

Its pretty simple really - expect an improvement in accuracy - if ya dont see it -dont do it

I use wads in the longer cases 38/55, 45/70, 45/75
dont bother with the shorter stuff 38/40, 44/40 dont try as hard or expect as much of those either (all blackpowder)

Same. 45 colt and 38/40, I just fill it up, cram a bullet on top, and go shoot.

[Lead pot]

Here is what a PP bullet cast with 1/16 alloy looks like shot with 2F black powder without using a wad. The right is with a .06" fiber wad. Even the folded paper leaves its mark on the bullet base. :D


315590

[indian joe]

Here is what a PP bullet cast with 1/16 alloy looks like shot with 2F black powder without using a wad. The right is with a .06" fiber wad. Even the folded paper leaves its mark on the bullet base. :D


315590

wow ! how do you collect these in such good shape ?

[Lead pot]

wow ! how do you collect these in such good shape ?

:D something you guys might not get get down your way, but in these parts it's called snow or some other words sometimes :D :D

315636

[38-72]

but in these parts it's called snow or some other words sometimes :D :D

315636[/QUOTE]
In these parts, it most call by those other words all the time.

[Bigslug]

A wad in BPCR serves many purposes. It allows one to compress the powder evenly, it keeps lube out of the powder, it can take up extra space if need be, but it seems most of you don't understand the primary purpose for a wad.

The primary purpose of it, at least for those of us in the competitive long range game, is the wad protects the base of the bullet. It acts as a gas check to stop gas cutting, and it also keeps the base of the bullet from getting deformed by granules of powder, or that kick in the behind when powder is ignited. We cast bullets. It's what this whole entire forum is about, so we should all know that the base of the bullet is the most important part of it. You're not going to win anything unless you make every effort possible to have perfect bases, and protect the bases of those bullets.

Some additional insight from the smokeless realm. . .

20+ years ago, one of the writers in Precision Shooting Magazine was discussing the theoretical advantages of sharp-shouldered, Ackley-style cartridges over their more tapered counterparts. One of these was that the sharper shoulder angle tended to "bunch up" the combusting & compressing powder at the front of the shoulder, where the tapered case would tend to act as a funnel, allowing the still-to-burn powder granules more easy passage into the bore. The first gain was more consistent ignition of the powder in that tighter space, but a second (more relevant to this thread) was that it limited the amount of "sandblasting" those powder granules were doing to the throat of your barrel.

In the context of black powder and lead projectiles, the pressures are a lot less, but you still have those crunchy granules at the front of the stack getting slammed forward at something like 10,000-15,000 CUP - if the smokeless "trapdoor equivalent" loads are any guide.

Armoring the stern of your projectile against that just makes good sense, especially after all the collected wisdom around promoting the necessity of a sharp-edged, uniform base.

[indian joe]

:D something you guys might not get get down your way, but in these parts it's called snow or some other words sometimes :D :D

315636

I'm a flatlander (600feet elevation) never seen it here - parts of Aus where it snows proper is all national park - no gun totin allowed there - I got caught up in a for real blizzard in the Nebraska sandhills in 2005 - was kinda interesting.
Do ya dig the boolits out when ya shoot - if yes how far do they penetrate? or have to wait till it thaws down and find em?

[indian joe]

Some additional insight from the smokeless realm. . .

20+ years ago, one of the writers in Precision Shooting Magazine was discussing the theoretical advantages of sharp-shouldered, Ackley-style cartridges over their more tapered counterparts. One of these was that the sharper shoulder angle tended to "bunch up" the combusting & compressing powder at the front of the shoulder, where the tapered case would tend to act as a funnel, allowing the still-to-burn powder granules more easy passage into the bore. The first gain was more consistent ignition of the powder in that tighter space, but a second (more relevant to this thread) was that it limited the amount of "sandblasting" those powder granules were doing to the throat of your barrel.

In the context of black powder and lead projectiles, the pressures are a lot less, but you still have those crunchy granules at the front of the stack getting slammed forward at something like 10,000-15,000 CUP - if the smokeless "trapdoor equivalent" loads are any guide.

Armoring the stern of your projectile against that just makes good sense, especially after all the collected wisdom around promoting the necessity of a sharp-edged, uniform base.

Your sandblasting phrase is interesting
I am no expert - have retrieved several part rusted blackpowder barrels but only ever dealt with one wore out barrel. A blued barrel 22/250 (on a winchester model 70) its had about 4500 rounds near as I can figure - proly a third of those were factory ammo and the reloads mostly winchester 760 powder (early on I used Nobels rifle ? but its crap in a rotary measure)
ok - that barrel lost its edge - got to the point where best I could get was about a 2" group at 100 - yeah still shootable and useful, but it was gone for longer range work.
one day fooling around with an old ML barrel someone gave me as trashed - I use steel wool and brasso and plenty elbow grease - an old brass brush to hold the steel wool and tight as can be got in the barrel - soon as it gets easy to push wrap a little more steel wool - half an hour of that then I finish it with jewellers rouge on a soft patch - anyway why not try the same on that winchester 70 ? I got that thing back to as good as before (3 in my thumbnail at 100 yards) when I cleaned it for storage I put a light down it - surface was bright and shiny but in the bottom of the grooves was what looked like little hairline cracks in the surface - wiggly not straight - sandblasting ???? looked more like heat erosion to me. I dont expect my restoration job to last long but easy enough to do it again - the front end of the barrel is still good. Maybe if I can keep it smooth inside it will see me out? Dont shoot it much but still handy on occasion.

Realise this is out of place here but .................................

[Lead pot]

I'm a flatlander (600feet elevation) never seen it here - parts of Aus where it snows proper is all national park - no gun totin allowed there - I got caught up in a for real blizzard in the Nebraska sandhills in 2005 - was kinda interesting.
Do ya dig the boolits out when ya shoot - if yes how far do they penetrate? or have to wait till it thaws down and find em?

Joe,

The penetration runs from 6 feet to 12 feet depending if the snow fell on a cold windy day. The cold dry snow the bullet gets pretty deep and also depends on the calibre. The wet heavy the penetration is about 1/2 or better.
If I'm in a hurry to see what the alloy looked like I get out the Mine Lab metal detector.
[/ATTACH]315726This is some of the other word white stuff315727It makes it tough walking to the shed to get the tractor out with a 6' snow blower 315728
But we don't get the snow that we used to anymore.

[indian joe]

Joe,

The penetration runs from 6 feet to 12 feet depending if the snow fell on a cold windy day. The cold dry snow the bullet gets pretty deep and also depends on the calibre. The wet heavy the penetration is about 1/2 or better.
If I'm in a hurry to see what the alloy looked like I get out the Mine Lab metal detector.
[/ATTACH]315726This is some of the other word white stuff315727It makes it tough walking to the shed to get the tractor out with a 6' snow blower 315728
But we don't get the snow that we used to anymore.

Ha! never thought of a metal detector - never used one (son has a cheap one he goes lookin for gold with)
Thanks for posting the pics .................

[murf205]

I am aware that the over powder wad is reputed to increase accuracy. A few yrs back, I used to converse with Dave Scovill when he was editor of Handloader/Rifle magazine and mentioned my success with a smokeless powder load in a 45/70 using an over powder wad made from milk carton. He said that it was a BIG no-no and even had Mike Venturino email me to tell me that I was in danger of ringing my chamber. Needless to say, I stopped loading the wad over the charge, but I have to ask why it is such a sin to do that.

[martinibelgian]

You're creating a cylindrical space with the powder at a right angle to the bullet base. Now if that wad were a bit ahead if the powder and would it allow to slump a bit, no problem. But by putting the wad ON the powder, you've created the ideal scenario for chamber ringing, which is an overpressure scenario creating shockwaves between wad and powder column.
Worst case, it will burst the barrel. Best case, you risk ringing your chamber.

[martinibelgian]

Put that wad joff the powder with some space between, and no issue.

[uscra112]

You're creating a cylindrical space with the powder at a right angle to the bullet base. Now if that wad were a bit ahead if the powder and would it allow to slump a bit, no problem. But by putting the wad ON the powder, you've created the ideal scenario for chamber ringing, which is an overpressure scenario creating shockwaves between wad and powder column.
Worst case, it will burst the barrel. Best case, you risk ringing your chamber.

Not quite. What Charlie Dell showed is airspace between the wad and the bullet is what leads to ringing. The wad becomes a piston, driving the air column above it to such extreme pressure that it can deform the steel.

[martinibelgian]

You'll have to to reread I believe, especially the reference to Vieille and the ability to generate rings without a wad when the barrel is held vertically. Nothing piston and compression, otherwise most breechseating would be an issue.

[uscra112]

The Modern Schuetzen Rifle - Charlie Dell and Wayne Schwartz

Also https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?397416-Chamber-ringing

[murf205]

After referring to the 2020 thread above, it pics another question. Would card wads stacked on top of the charge all the way to the base of the boolit remove the effect of shoving the expanding gasses against base? Fillers must work and have for me in the past, but a soft puffy filler sounds like a chamber ringer waiting to happen, especially if not done correctly.

[LIMPINGJ]

Kynoch Nitro Express Wads - Size 2 .400-.500 NE x100
Kynoch
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SKU
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Unique case filling system developed and used by Kynoch on all their big game ammunition and now available to the home loader.
https://1967spud.com/media/catalog/product/cache/f8c2a003c36f768b48c7f6167b87bdfa/t/h/thumbnail-img-3321-2t4j.jpg
Looks like Kynoch Ammo uses something like backer rod to fill the space between powder and bullet base.

[martinibelgian]

The Modern Schuetzen Rifle - Charlie Dell and Wayne Schwartz

Also https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?397416-Chamber-ringing
I agree with the source, not with your interpretation. And that link mostly is interpretation.
Remember, this is Not new, just forgotten. The french scientist Vieille discovered the phenomenon and its cause late 19th century, we kinda forgot it...

[Huvius]

I use a card wad in my black powder rifle cartridges because in Eley did in the 19th Century and they knew more about the subject than I ever will!

That said, I believe they are to protect the base of the boolit as LedPots photos demonstrate.
An added benefit is when I knock over my cartridges or one of mine which use a slip fit loses it's boolit, all of the powder doesn't spill out!