Dropped Gun Discharge!

[Thundarstick]

I was just reading an article, where a 1911 MK4 fell out of a man's pocket at a Craker Barrel, discharged, and wounded two bystanders.
How does a 1911 accidentally discharge from a drop?

[Lakehouse2012]

There is just too little information there to determine if this is an unintentional discharge or a defect of the gun....


Carried in pocket- was it in a holster?

If no, the he could have a coin or keys or other object against the trigger....

Was the trigger spring worn or modified?

Many other options as well

Sent from my SM-A526U using Tapatalk

[NC_JEFF]

Is their a handgun anywhere with more safeties, internal and external, than a 1911. I'm always skeptical of these kind of reports. A coin or knife can lodge in the trigger but can it move the trigger enough to allow a discharge, this means its also had to land on the grip safety and depress it enough to allow a discharge. A gun is only made to fire a bullet so when that happens it is "normal" , I know anything is possible but I've never experienced an accidental discharge from a dropped handgun. Alec Baldwin didnt pull the trigger either, remember?

[JimB..]

From a guy close to the investigation, it fired into a hard surface and a couple folks nearby were hit by splatter. Injuries were treated with band-aides. Owner was from Ohio, no concealed carry permit required so issue as NC still requires one, he was issued a citation. No charges filed as the man didn’t discharge the weapon. I haven’t heard that it was a MK4.

A 1911 can fire if dropped directly on the muzzle from a height above about 5’, but there isn’t enough info to figure out why his fired from a lesser height.

Local article is poorly written, it didn’t fire when he was picking it up per investigators.
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article274828706.html

[45_Colt]

If the thumb safety is off the sear can easily be jarred off the hammer hooks. More so if it has a light trigger. The half cock notch (or shelf) should catch the hammer. But who knows when a gun is bouncing around.

The grip safety only prevents the trigger from contacting and pushing on the disconnector/sear.

45_Colt

[JimB..]

As I understand history, the grip safety was to prevent injury or death to a horse or rider. The US Mil concern at the time was that a gun dropped by a mounted soldier would land muzzle up and fire. The risk is presumably due to momentum of the trigger, although I’ve never seen that in print.

Grip safety prevents this.

[Rapier]

Been a 1911 armorer for 50+ years. Never seen a 1911 with the thumb safety engaged and the grip safety extended, on safe, fire by being dropped, even out the door of an aircraft from 1200 feet.
This is why the 1911 is safe to carry loaded, cocked and locked. It takes 3 movements to fire it, only one on a DA revolver, it was designed by John Browning to replace the DA revolver
The 1911 was designed to replace the DA Army revolver, the automatic pistol was adopted in 1911, it was not designed to make horses safe or anything else safe, except to serve as a military sidearm, with stopping power in excess of the then current issue.

Without proof otherwise the LEOs must take the man's word, but an AD by dropping, no. More than likely cleared the mag, forgot he had a round in the chamber, and boom. Seen it done at a show by a dealer, he was immediately tossed out. He claimed a lot of stuff on his way to the parking lot.

[725]

Never say never; too little information to conclude a definitive answer. Assumptions as to the engagement of the safety, working condition of the grip safety, etc. all open up the possibility of an AD. I agree if all is as it should be, the 1911 is a very safe gun. The real world has a way of gumming things up and allowing the unintended to occur.

[1Hawkeye]

I agree with rapier ,something the owner did set it off and if I remember right a mk 4 is a series 80 which means it has a firing pin block that doesn't let the pin move until the trigger is pulled.

[Larry Gibson]

"I didn't fire it, the gun fired after falling out of my pocket".....

Kinda sounds like another we've heard recently ....."I didn't pull the trigger".......

[Thundarstick]

Link to what I read. I've heard of striker fired guns discharging, but not a 1911.

https://www.kktv.com/2023/05/08/police-gun-goes-off-cracker-barrel-after-diner-drops-it-2-injured/

[MUSTANG]

Years ago in the USMC we had 1911's issued from the armory for guard duty that were so worn that going to the range it was not uncommon while aiming at the target to tilt slightly left and slightly right to "Center" the slide on the frame before firing to keep them on the target. These were 1911's that were originally fielded in the 1930's & 1940's - frames exceptionally loose because of the decades of firing they had been through.

On guard duty; the 1911's were "Safety Wired" with a very thin piece of copper wire, round in the chamber - cocked and locked. This was done because of the numerous what we called back then "Illegal Discharges". The problem was 1911's at times were firing when the slide safety was dropped. Back then - never heard of an Illegal Discharge occurring other than that process. Some commands; it was an office hour event to break the safety wire unless a valid Armed Response where weapon was readied for use/used occurred.

I have had one "Unintended Discharge" in my life. 8 years old and my dad was teaching to hunt quail - Remington Model 11 "HumpBack", and after I shot a quail I was so excited I still had my finger on the trigger and fired a round off in the air. Memory is as fresh today as those many years ago; setting the stage for a life of check/double check/triple check and then be sure to now at all times where that muzzle is pointed.

I have numerous 1911's and carry with them often. Dropping one takes an extreme level of inattention and firearm control in my opinion.

[Hickok]

" fumbled to pick up the gun he had dropped...a bullet fired into the wall......"

Safety off, round in the chamber, gripped the pistol, pulled the trigger...in the embarrassment, adrenaline rush, and excitement of the moment, he defeated all the safety mechanisms built into the 1911.

Watch anyone who is not properly trained when they pick up or hold a handgun. They always grip the gun and put their finger on the trigger! Either the safety was off, or he mindlessly thumbed it off when gripping the pistol.

[HumptyDumpty]

Barring a defect or unsafe modification to the firearm, I do not believe such claims about the 1911. Perhaps if it had a floating firing pin, but overcoming that spring requires significant inertia. This man's tests seem to confirm my suspicion: https://sightm1911.com/lib/tech/inertial_discharge.htm

Reader's Digest version: Repeated muzzle-first drops onto asphalt, from up-to fifteen feet, failed to ignite the primer.

A friend of mine got a box full of 1911 parts a while back (all the leftovers from decades of amateur gunsmiths projects). If he still has them, perhaps I can cobble something together.

[barnetmill]

From a guy close to the investigation, it fired into a hard surface and a couple folks nearby were hit by splatter. Injuries were treated with band-aides. Owner was from Ohio, no concealed carry permit required so issue as NC still requires one, he was issued a citation. No charges filed as the man didn’t discharge the weapon. I haven’t heard that it was a MK4.

A 1911 can fire if dropped directly on the muzzle from a height above about 5’, but there isn’t enough info to figure out why his fired from a lesser height.


Local article is poorly written, it didn’t fire when he was picking it up per investigators.
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article274828706.html
The height at which 1911 without a firing pin block will discharge when dropped on the end of barrel will depend on several factors. One will be the the strength of the coil spring that is around the firing pin. The stronger the spring, the more force it will take for the firing pin to go forward and strike the primer sufficiently to detonate it.
A GI spec spring is routinely cut to remove coil(s) at the same time that coils are cut from the hammer mainspring. It is called balancing the springs.
The series 80s have a trigger actuated firing pin block as one finds in glocks.
https://sightm1911.com/images/series80fpblock-300x262.jpg

[JimB..]

" fumbled to pick up the gun he had dropped...a bullet fired into the wall......"

Safety off, round in the chamber, gripped the pistol, pulled the trigger...in the embarrassment, adrenaline rush, and excitement of the moment, he defeated all the safety mechanisms built into the 1911.

Watch anyone who is not properly trained when they pick up or hold a handgun. They always grip the gun and put their finger on the trigger! Either the safety was off, or he mindlessly thumbed it off when gripping the pistol.

This is why I asked, the answer was quite clear. But I’m not entirely convinced, but don’t have facts.

[JimB..]

The height at which 1911 without a firing pin block will discharge when dropped on the end of barrel will depend on several factors. One will be the the strength of the coil spring that is around the firing pin. The stronger the spring, the more force it will take for the firing pin to go forward and strike the primer sufficiently to detonate it.
A GI spec spring is routinely cut to remove coil(s) at the same time that coils are cut from the hammer mainspring. It is called balancing the springs.
The series 80s have a trigger actuated firing pin block as one finds in glocks.
https://sightm1911.com/images/series80fpblock-300x262.jpg

Height, surface, angle of impact, mass of the firing pin and strength of the firing pin spring are I think the critical factors. Old gunsmith around here did some testing with an old slide and was popping primers at 5 or 6 feet, but I don’t know anything about his setup. I think most folks use a firing pin spring that’s heavier than GI spec, I consider it like adding a recoil buffer, but I don’t judge.

[JimB..]

A friend of mine got a box full of 1911 parts a while back (all the leftovers from decades of amateur gunsmiths projects). If he still has them, perhaps I can cobble something together.

Please do, I’d have done it but don’t have a slide or barrel that I feel like boogering up.

[Thundarstick]

" fumbled to pick up the gun he had dropped...a bullet fired into the wall......"

Safety off, round in the chamber, gripped the pistol, pulled the trigger...in the embarrassment, adrenaline rush, and excitement of the moment, he defeated all the safety mechanisms built into the 1911.

Watch anyone who is not properly trained when they pick up or hold a handgun. They always grip the gun and put their finger on the trigger! Either the safety was off, or he mindlessly thumbed it off when gripping the pistol.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that the trigger was pulled! I just don't see it happening with a seated pocket, or even falling from a jacket pocket while putting it on. I'm of the opinion that pocket guns need to be in a pocket holster as well.

[varmintpopper]

Never say never; too little information to conclude a definitive answer. Assumptions as to the engagement of the safety, working condition of the grip safety, etc. all open up the possibility of an AD. I agree if all is as it should be, the 1911 is a very safe gun. The real world has a way of gumming things up and allowing the unintended to occur.

Read The Safety/function checks.
www.m1911.org//technic23.htm

[45_Colt]

Having watched a .45 1911 being tossed some 20 feet down range, it didn't discharge. It was locked & loaded. I don't know if it had the S 80 firing pin block or not.

45_Colt

[deltaenterprizes]

A 1911 pre Series 80 without a firing pin block can fire if there is a round in the chamber and the hammer is down resting on the firing pin.
This is the incorrect way to carry a 1911 but a lot of people carry it this way thinking that they will have time to cock the hammer.
I personally know a gentleman that is walking around with a 380ACP bullet in his ankle because he had a Browning 380 with the same design go off when it fell out of his back pocket.
It was Federal ammunition and I saw the fired case. It had a small dent like you see when you eject a router from an AR-15 but it was enough to make the cartridge fire.
The bullet ricocheted off the pavement and lodged in his ankle and is there till this day.

[45_Colt]

A 1911 pre Series 80 without a firing pin block can fire if there is a round in the chamber and the hammer is down resting on the firing pin.

I don't believe that this is correct. A hammer down condition pushes the firing pin in, but it can't reach the primer. The 1911 uses an inertia firing pin, IOW, when the hammer strikes it, it then extends far enough to strike the primer.

45_Colt

[HumptyDumpty]

I don't believe that this is correct. A hammer down condition pushes the firing pin in, but it can't reach the primer. The 1911 uses an inertia firing pin, IOW, when the hammer strikes it, it then extends far enough to strike the primer.

45_Colt

That is correct, the firing pin is not in contact with the primer when the hammer is down.

[deltaenterprizes]

I don't believe that this is correct. A hammer down condition pushes the firing pin in, but it can't reach the primer. The 1911 uses an inertia firing pin, IOW, when the hammer strikes it, it then extends far enough to strike the primer.

45_Colt
Correct, it is not in contact but is much closer so it doesn’t need to travel very far to make contact!
This is not a here say story, I am very well acquainted with him, I worked with him for 20 years.
A lot of older semiautomatic pistols with safeties that block the firing pin like my S&W Model 39 if it is carried with a round in the chamber and the safety off and the hammer down it can fire if it is dropped and the muzzle hits the ground.
That is why Colt came up with the firing pin block in the Series 80!

[varmintpopper]

Point the gun straight down and perform grip safety check by pulling the trigger without depressing the safety. Hammer should not fall. If it does, the right leaf of the sear spring is allowing the safety to disengage by gravity and should be fixed. Holding the gun parallel to the floor doesn't give you a true test of the grip safety because the gun isn't carried that way.

[deltaenterprizes]

Inertia is what makes the firing pin continue moving forward when the gun hits the ground on the muzzle!
With the hammer down on a chambered round it only takes a small amount of movement of the firing pin.
The frame stops moving but the firing pin continues forward.
It is like in a car wreck the car hits a tree at stops but the people inside continue moving forward and can be ejected through the windshield jig they are not wearing a seat belt.
Even with a seat belt they continue moving forward slightly.

[rintinglen]

Without examining the gun, I am hesitant to attempt to categorically identify a cause of this event. Other than, of course, clumsiness in dropping the weapon in the first place. But having seen 1911's machine-gun, watching a hammer drop when the safety was pushed off and observing a dented primer from a dropped pistol, I won't totally discount the possibility of a weapon's malfunction. I don't know who has been monkeying with that gun or what they did to it, nor how much use and or neglect that gun has undergone. Assuming it was in proper functioning order, it shouldn't have gone bang. But it did. The cause was either mechanical failure or human error.

My experience in investigating industrial accidents makes me willing to put 9-1 odds on it being human error versus mechanical failure.

[HumptyDumpty]

With a primed cased in the chamber, and the slide zip-tied into battery, I drop a commander slide straight down onto my driveway. Results as follows:
10 feet, directly onto the concrete- Popped primer
5 feet, onto a piece of hard wood- No detonation of the primer
5 feet, directly onto the concrete- Popped primer
3 feet, onto a piece of hard wood- No detonation
3 feet, directly onto concrete- No detonation
313946
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[HumptyDumpty]

I concede that it is technically possible, but still believe that it is incredibly unlikely in day-to-day scenarios.

[elmacgyver0]

I don't believe that this is correct. A hammer down condition pushes the firing pin in, but it can't reach the primer. The 1911 uses an inertia firing pin, IOW, when the hammer strikes it, it then extends far enough to strike the primer.

45_Colt

Evidently you have never seen the gadget that has a row of steel balls suspended by wires.
You lift a ball on one end and release it, it hits the next ball and the far ball on the other end moves.
Works the same way with the hammer next to the firing pin on a gun without the firing pin block.
That is why they added the block, to cover the clowns who carry with the hammer down.

[deltaenterprizes]

Evidently you have never seen the gadget that has a row of steel balls suspended by wires.
You lift a ball on one end and release it, it hits the next ball and the far ball on the other end moves.
Works the same way with the hammer next to the firing pin on a gun without the firing pin block.
That is why they added the block, to cover the clowns who carry with the hammer down.
Excellent illustration!

[JimB..]

I concede that it is technically possible, but still believe that it is incredibly unlikely in day-to-day scenarios.
Thanks for running the test, and I agree that it is unlikely.

[beshears]

One major safety rule We stress at matches is if You drop Your firearm do NOT try to catch it. Let the range officer pick it up. Grabbing it in the air no telling what you are going to grab.

[45_Colt]

Evidently you have never seen the gadget that has a row of steel balls suspended by wires.
You lift a ball on one end and release it, it hits the next ball and the far ball on the other end moves.
Works the same way with the hammer next to the firing pin on a gun without the firing pin block.
That is why they added the block, to cover the clowns who carry with the hammer down.

I have, and have one here. But that is different from striking the back of the hammer. Most of the hammer is against the firing pin stop. Along with a gap between the firing pin and primer. Of which the firing pin also has a spring to hold it back.

Unlike the early SA revolvers where the firing pin with a hammer down actually resting on the primer. Which is what my post was regarding.

Besides, deltaenterprizes was talking about the abrupt stop of the pistol, muzzle down, on a hard surface. Imparting enough inertia to the firing pin to set off the primer. And even with the hammer down, yes, the firing pin is closer to the primer, but the firing pin return spring is also compressed more imparting more force in the rearward direction.

Which according to HD'y tests, needs at least a 5' drop. Which is on par with other tests I've seen..

Note that a good/new firing pin spring along with a titanium firing pin would go a long way to eliminating/reducing the chance of a dropped gun discharge. If one is worried about it.

45_Colt

[Duckiller]

You need to buy your guns from California. Every handgun but single action revolvers must pass a DOJ drop test. If it drops and goes bang then it isn't sold in Cal. SAA is exempt because some older legislators had Colts that they knew would go bang. They didn't want to give up guns that had been in the family for years so they exempted them from the law. Didn't want to play favorites so they exempted all single action revolvers, even Rugers. Do manufactures really make special guns for California or do they just don't sell gun that can't be safely dropped in Cal?

[GregLaROCHE]

All the safeties were to keep the trigger from being pulled. A sharp impact on the hammer could have caused it to discharge.

[725]

Agree varmint popper. Who's to say the actual condition of the 1911 in question. If this story is even true, at all.

"...if all is as it should be, the 1911 is a very safe gun."

[45_Colt]

All the safeties were to keep the trigger from being pulled. A sharp impact on the hammer could have caused it to discharge.

On a 1911, neither of these statements are true.

45_Colt

[Spooksar]

When I shot 3 gun we had people they would plan the grip safety thinking it would make the shot faster. The rules in our local 3 gun association allowed this and I strongly disagreed with it.

[firefly1957]

The 1911 as originally designed has an inertial firing pin that is why it is safe to carry with hammer down safety off . The firing pin is shorter then the passage it rides in the hammer sends it fast enough to fire the primer after it has left contact with the hammer . I have heard of a couple accidental discharges when a 1911 is dropped on a hard surface from 3 feet or more muzzle first causing a discharge into the floor/hard surface.
Some guns do have a firing pin block if the trigger is not pulled I do not know which ones . Another fix is a lightweight firing pin rather then the original firing pin. Also carry with the hammer down allows less firing pin travel when the gun is dropped on the muzzle making discharge less likely .

[JRD]

There is some nuance in the particulars on 1911 firing pins and drop safety, however there is no disputing the fact that a mil-spec 1911 can absolutely fire when dropped muzzle first on a hard surface. Safety on, grip safety engaged, and the hammer staying cocked are irrelevant. The inertia of the firing pin itself is enough to set the primer off.

It's not just drops either. A GI 1911 in the hands of a criminal who laid the gun on the ground when directed, and then a cop moves in to cuff the bad guy and kicks the 1911 out of the way across the floor, where the 1911 hits perfectly muzzle first against the wall and discharged was the specific example cited to me by the designer of the Colt Series 80 firing pin plunger. 1911's dropped on the steel deck of a ship are another example.
You could drop a 1911 out of a plane or off a building and it won't go off if it doesn't land on the muzzle. But drop it from shoulder height exactly muzzle first onto concrete or steel and its darned likely to fire.

Note that mil-spec 45 firing pins are a fat tip diameter, while the 38 supers were a smaller diameter. Most modern 1911's have standardized on the smaller 38 super diameter firing pins now and most have either adopted a titanium pin to reduce weight or incorporated some type of firing pin block. The smaller tips are better for preventing primer flow and have the added benefit of being lighter.

We don't know the specifics of the gun in this example, but assuming no mechanical firing pin block, it's entirely plausible the gun fired from hitting the floor if it landed just right (or wrong).
Dropping perfectly good guns on a hard floor to see if they will fire is not something most shooters have any experience with, but according to my contacts in the industry, all the major manufacturers profusely drop test their products to prevent instances such as this.