Which Hardcast Caliber for Hunting Large Whitetail Deer?

[Danyo]

Hey guys,

I have been hunting deer with a shotgun for years, and have done a little bow hunting, but now I want to get into handgun hunting. I am in southern Minnesota, so we have quite large corn-fed deer. I am usually hunting on field edges or in thick woods, within a couple hundred yards of a property line. I can't decide which handgun I should use. I would like to shoot out to 40 yards, ideally.

Right now I have a 4.25" Smith and Wesson Model 69 44 Magnum and a 6" EAA Witness Hunter 10mm. I shoot them both equally well. I slightly prefer semiautos. I have done a bunch of milk jug testing, and no hollowpoint from either gun has gone further than the 5th jug. 10mm rounds advertised as jacketed soft points acted more like hollowpoints and only went into the 3rd jug. 44 magnum jacketed soft points did not expand and of course went through all 8 jugs that I had lined-up.

I think having an exit wound and a blood trail would be best, so I am convinced that hardcast is the way to go in my case. The wider the flat meplat the better, I would think. I have always been under the impression that handgun bullets just poke holes, there is no hydrostatic shock, so I figured velocity does not matter as much with hardcast in handguns. But lately I am finding that some folks say it works better at velocities 1300 fps and up. Is there any truth to that? I know its a complex topic and it is hard to predict exactly how a deer will react to being shot.

But, if you had to choose, which of the following options do you think would be the best for large deer? A 10mm 200 gr hardcast WFN with a 0.32 meplat, going 1300 fps? A 44 special/magnum 240-260 gr hardcast WFN with a 0.35 meplat , going 975-1000 fps? Anything much hotter makes me "flinchy" with this light weight revolver. Or, I always liked 1911s, why not shoot Montana Bullet Works's 45acp 230 gr hardcast LFN with a 0.335 meplat, loaded to 925 fps? It seems like a lot of 44 special hunters say to aim for 900-1100 fps, so this would be on the lower end but might still work.

So which route should I go? I'm guessing you guys will say to go with whatever I am most accurate with. I am probably overthinking it, but if a 250 pound buck walks in front of me, I don't want him to suffer any more than he has to, I want a blood trail, and I would rather not have him run onto my grumpy neighbor's property.

Thanks for any advice!

[huntinlever]

Great thread. Watching with interest.

[versa-06]

Hello Danyo & welcome aboard!! I really don't think that you will get as much meplat out of an auto. So I always prefer 50/50 ( Wheel Weight/ Pure Lead)+ tin for fill out, 220-265 grain bullets depending on caliber, & as large of a meplat as you have up to around 80-85% of the bullet caliber. But then again your 10mm pistol may cycle wide mouthed bullets. Good Luck with this adventure!!

[Wheelguns 1961]

Any of those setups should do fine. The main thing is to put the bullet in the right place. With hunting anything is possible. You won’t always get the perfect shot. You won’t always have a blood trail, even with an exit hole. My choice would be the 44 magnum because I shoot revolvers best. Check your state laws. While my state allows handgun hunting, there are rules on which handguns are legal.

[GregLaROCHE]

I say use the gun you are most comfortable with. Are you planning to put a scope on it? Welcome to the forum.

[stubshaft]

I've used my 44 Special with an LBT WFN for hogs and goats. Using Skeeters load (7.5 grs. Unique) just motoring along at around 1K fps. Being a traditional bowhunter myself, most of my shots are under 50 yards and to date I have NEVER been able to recover a bullet. They go coast to coast on all of the animals shot.

[Danyo]

Thanks guys! I have not run any wide mouthed hardcast through the 10mm yet, so yeah I would have to make sure it will feed. Shoulda done that before I posted. I ordered some from DoubleTap Ammo last week, though. So we will see! And no, I did not plan on putting a scope on these guns.

[reloader28]

Another fan of 50/50 alloy for hunting. Seems to me if your shooting that close of range and get into the fifth jug with a hollow point, thats what I would use. The rib cage of a big deer is no thicker than 3 jugs wide and it will make a bigger hole than a solid boolit

[sixshot]

Welcome to the world of hand gun hunting, you're going to feel a new excitement you haven't felt in a long time. Cast bullets will work great for you, I've been using them for over 50 years & taken quite a bit of game with the 3 big "4" calibers, 41, 44 & 45. Probably taken the most with the 41. In your 44 if you want to use HP's just take out both lungs, or a solid will do the same thing, I've taken many & they don't go very far. If you have to anchor them where they stand then break both shoulders with a high shoulder shot. It might not kill them instantly but they go down on the spot. I usually use 10 grs of Unique with the Keith bullet, probably recovered 6-7 bullets in the last 50 years on something like 100 deer, never kept track.
My heavier load has always been 21.0 grs of 2400 & the Keith bullet if I'm really mad, use the same load on elk & bears. A 250 gr bullet in a 41 or a 45 is going to give you the same results. Just took Kudu, Nyla & Gemsbok in Africa with those 2 calibers with the high shoulder shot, bullets are probably still going. Got one exit on my Cape Buffalo with the 45.
In your 10mm & that 200 gr bullet, if you are running 1100-1150 fps with a WFN you will be just fine, take the high shoulder shot or center punch the lungs depending on angle. I always try to cast my bullets as soft as I can and still maintain accuracy, why would you cast them any harder if accuracy is there? Not telling anyone else what to do, just saying that's how I've always done it. Deer aren't hard to kill, but sometimes they are hard to hit. Good luck on your hunt.

Dick

[Rapier]

The 44 Mag is notorious for no expansion and going through a deer like a freight train. I would use the 240gr SWC similar to the Lyman 240. With practice you can keep it in a 2" group at 50. I would prefer a 6" or 7 1/2" barrel, but the 4" will do the trick. I used a 7 to 7.5 gr Unique load in a 44 Blackhawk OM to shoot hogs with, killed 4 in one day, not one stopped the 240 grain. Welcome and good luck.

[1Papalote]

44. Practice out to 50 yards until you are proficient
I've taken 2 deer, 44m and 45C, 40&50 yards respectively. Rugers, SBH scoped And Bisley with factory sights.

[Harter66]

I've killed hogs at 5-47 yd with a 454424 and the NOE version at a paltry 1050 fps MV . 20-36" of penetration every time the measurements are so varied because the bullets ran out of hog .
They did this often breaking at least 1 but as many as 5 ribs .

I don't know why a 429421 wouldn't do the same .

[BLAHUT]

The biggest, softest, heaviest you can shoot accurately...

[megasupermagnum]

I really wouldn't worry about it. I understand grumpy neighbors are the worst, but Minnesota allows unarmed retrieval of game on other property, the way it should be. Everything you listed is perfectly suitable, and I've taken deer with both 10mm auto and 44 magnum, and I'd have nothing against 45 acp either.

You are way too worried about penetration with what you have. My only experience with 10mm auto was with 180gr XTP bullets at around 1300 fps, and they expand really well. Both deer shot with that round exited the far side, one was a pretty extreme angle too. Very effective round, nothing explosive, but it works good. I would definitely look into using a hollow point in 10mm auto if getting the deer down as fast as possible is the goal.

I've never used such a weak 44 magnum round. I've seen the results of a 240gr soft point, but those were blazing fast from a 10 5/8" barrel, probably over 1500 fps. It's effective for sure. It probably expanded, and yes it exited. I've seen a 41 magnum used with Federals cast core hardcast bullets which might be more comparable, but still I'm guessing they were much faster than you are planning. They zipped right on through leaving a bullet size hole. Nothing impressive, but it for sure killed the deer fine. At only 1000 fps, I think a solid non-expanding cast bullet is a good choice. I would still cast them very soft like 30:1 alloy though and hope the nose rivets at least a little.

I've never shot anything big with 45 acp, and I've not seen anyone do it yet. I've heard of people using hollow points on deer, and while they definately are lethal, I'm thinking this might be a case where you might not get an exit. For better or worse, nearly all hollow point bullets either jacketed or cast are designed for maximum expansion. They often expand to or over 3/4". That combined with the low velocity, I think you are definitely in the territory a solid cast bullet makes the best sense. They will definitely exit, and you should be able to feed bullets with a bigger flat nose than a 10mm. I'm surprised your 10mm will cycle with a .32" nose, many wont. That's pretty big for 10mm, and it's not small for 45 either. If you cast your own, I think the Accurate 45-210L will be a phenomenal hunting bullet for 45 acp, and it's one I will possibly use this fall.

Hydrostatic shock is mostly nonsense anyway, it may exist, but what most people perceive it to be is usually just misinterpretation anyway. Nothing magic happens at 1300 fps. Even the often touted 2000 fps for hydrostatic shock is nothing magic either. The main thing more velocity gets you in handguns is much more effective hollow point bullets. Below that and you run a really tight balance between bullets that don't expand at all, and those that expand way to much, such as most 45 acp's. Once you get up to that 1200-1300 fps range you can use bullet designs that are much more forgiving, and you can count on them to both expand, and penetrate all the way through.

One last thing, I've hunted deer in central and western MN since I was a little kid. I've shot 3 deer with a puny little 327 federal handgun, and all three exited. One was a coup-de-grace, one was a one and done shot with a hollow point, and one was two shots with a solid that did expand based on the massive hole it left. The second shot was not needed, but I will always send a second shot if given the chance. Neither deer made it 40 yards. If a 140 grain expanding bullet at 1250 fps exits full size MN deer, I'm quite confident anything you have listed will also exit. Don't worry so much about the water jugs, that 10mm auto and hollow points will also pass through. 5 milk jugs is pretty dang good. There's plenty of popular rifle rounds that won't do better than that. That's on par with what many people use with 308 and 30-06 for example.

[quilbilly]

The biggest, softest, heaviest you can shoot accurately...
Yes. Welcome to our group!!!

[Teddy (punchie)]

Hit the animal where the shoulder blade and the spine neck meet. Just at base of inside the ribs. Area where if animal is dressed out the throat, windpipe, veins and artery, pass and close to the spine. If you hit this area the animal will fall right there. The damage to spine alone will stop the animal. 2nd place I aim for.

Double shoulder shot should do a good job. Stopping the animal in its tracks. Lots of meat damage. I almost never aim for this spot.

Heart shot about animal may go 50 yards max. Hard for me to shoot the there, just not the spot for me.

Lungs ribs area behind shoulder animal may go 50 yds. to 150 yds. This is where I hit them only loose a few pounds of meat.

I would also say I shoot at running deer....moving deer. Have had to pass on a few where not able to pull the trigger, for lack of bullet placement and safety. Only ever lost one deer I hit, and that a long story. Missed a few easy shots that are also long stories darn trees. Most of my hunting is with a 150 grs. pill move at 3100 fps. or faster. Which is completely different then the pass through of a all lead bullet. I would have to only take the shot if everything was correct because of the past through; because aiming time and other reasons

Helped meat cutters and butchers cut deer (there is a difference). I would say some 2000 animals over the years. So all this said safety and bullet placement.

[Digital Dan]

Get the "hardcast" out of your thinking, it is unnecessary and counter-productive. I used 300 gr pure lead with a paper patch in the .44 Mag, not one critter took a second step after being shot.

[35 Rem]

I always read about how the large bore handguns will easily over penetrate a deer. Now I know that most are talking about higher velocity than the load I typically carry in my 45 Colt when deer hunting but I only carry it to finish off deer shot with a rifle. Never used it but one time over the years. The time I did use it, I had shot a doe at about 100 yards with my 35 Remington and hit high for a spine shot. The deer was unable to move but definitely not dead so I got right up to it and shot it in the side of the head right below and a bit behind the eye. Of course it expired immediately but I was shocked when I rolled it over and saw that the bullet didn't exit the head. The load was mild using the Lee 255-RFN bullet at 775 ft/sec verified with chronograph. That's definitely not a heavy load by any stretch of the definition but I would have bet it would exit. Alloy was air cooled WWs.

[versa-06]

35 Rem; That would have surprised me too, & would be glad I didn't have a bet riding on it.

[mnewcomb59]

With a 45 Colt and a light load, you probably lost 200 fps when pointing straight down at the deer's head. It might be 775 fps with a level barrel, but I bet it maybe breaks 600 when pointed down. This is a problem when shooting deer directly below your tree stand in large cases and light loads, or for coup de grace shots.

[RickinTN]

Get the "hardcast" out of your thinking, it is unnecessary and counter-productive. I used 300 gr pure lead with a paper patch in the .44 Mag, not one critter took a second step after being shot.

I agree with Digital Dan. Hardcast is not what you want. As soft as you can is best for expansion. I have never had anyone be able to tell me what hardcast is. I think you are referring to using cast bullets. The "hard" part should be left off.
Take care, and good luck!
Rick

[Danyo]

Wow thanks for all of the information, stories, and encouragement guys! Lots of great information here to think-over. I have been reading a ton of forum threads lately on this topic and this one has a lot of new info that I had not read about before. Thanks!

[35 Rem]

With a 45 Colt and a light load, you probably lost 200 fps when pointing straight down at the deer's head. It might be 775 fps with a level barrel, but I bet it maybe breaks 600 when pointed down. This is a problem when shooting deer directly below your tree stand in large cases and light loads, or for coup de grace shots.

That might be true with some powders but WW231 is not supposed to be position sensitive and that's what I used in those loads.

[hc18flyer]

I only have one whitetail with my .45 Colt. 275 grain wide flat nose at about 1050 fps, 15 yard shot. Hit high, close to the spine, needed a finishing shot, but didn't take another step. Fairly soft, 10.5 bhn bullet. Complete pass thru. Either of your choices will work fine. I am 64, so my eyesight isn't as good as I like, so I chose a red dot.
hc18flyer

[Bigslug]

For sake of a common milk jug reference:

Typical police duty auto hollowpoints will typically penetrate three. Sometimes you'll get four. Some of the more "pancakey" will stop in two.

I've had 70% meplat diameter 230gr. .45 and 135gr. 9mm a non+P speeds take nine jugs to stop.

Any of your listed options will do, but the revolver's lack of need to mechanically feed a round up a ramp will allow a more aggressive meplat, and possibly, a little faster bleed out as a result.

[Grayone]

Use the one that you shoot best with the loads you have. Make sure you have a good skinning knife and drag rope with you or a two wheel cart handy as you will need it. I highly doubt you will recover a bullet from either.

[ChristopherO]

My first thought when seeing the title of this thread is that hard cast is not needed. Looks like most of the other guys have answered that the same way. Good hunting and post pictures of your dead deer this Fall.

[Digital Dan]

300 grains pure lead, paper patched, .44 Mag at 1,600 fps at the muzzle
https://i.imgur.com/vKm8YMP.jpg

Two broken forelegs, 5 ribs and the heart cut in half.....flop 160# doe at 80 yards
https://i.imgur.com/RENinxM.jpg

[PHyrbird]

I do agree with the 45 kinda guys. Try the Lee 300g gc at about 1000-1200. My hits with 45 have been whap/crash, No step
Course this option won't work with most semi-autos. For that I suggest the 450BM, loveit.

[Digital Dan]

Wow thanks for all of the information, stories, and encouragement guys! Lots of great information here to think-over. I have been reading a ton of forum threads lately on this topic and this one has a lot of new info that I had not read about before. Thanks!

Take a little time and browse this website. http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

[gunseller]

Guess I will be odd guy in this. I cast out of straight WW. 260RNFP in 45Colt doing 1100, 240 SWC in 44 mag doing 1300and 210 also in 44 mag case doing 700. The long shot was with 45 at 200 yards. Broke shoulder going in and broke other shoulder going out. 30 inches of movement, down. Closest shot, kissing range, 240 in 44 in chest out backside about 6 steps. 210 in 44 was just over 100 yards. In left side hit heart out left side. Got a bout 20 yards for movement after shot. I have shot deer and pigs with harder and softer bullets with same results so it is easier to cast straight WW.

[Frank V]

429421 it’ll work for almost everything!:D

[Tripplebeards]

I sat 85 yards off my property line and shot three deer in a row with a “hard cast” boolit out of 44 mag Ruger 77/44 rifle at 1750 fps loaded with 263 grain cast hollow points. After two ran over a 100 yards with heart and lung shots I changed over to a 35 Rem using soft cast hollow points loaded at 2100 fps. Two out the three deer with the 44 mag rifle went over a 100 yards with little to no blood. Nine if the 44 mag Lyman devastator Boolits expanded. All were Double lung shots. Not impressed to say the least. The third deer dropped but kicked around for 2 minutes because I hit the top of the ribs. The ribs shattered and acted like a fragmenting jacked varmint bullet. It still wasn’t enough energy transfer to instantly kill it. The deer kicked around for 2min before expiring. I used a Lyman devastator with 15.4 BH alloy. None of the boolits ever expanded and acted like FMJs. If you need to drop a deer in the spot, or quickly, so it doesn’t go on the neighbors property imo first I wouldn’t suggest ANY pistol caliber jacketed or cast. Pistols just don’t shoot fast enough fir hydrostatic shock. Just asking for drama imo. If you really want/have to shoot a pistol I’d tell you use a jacketed XTP or similar hollow point. I switched over to a 7.5 BH alloy in my 77/44 and Lyman HP at 1600 fps but haven’t seen a deer to test it on. I’ve shot countless deer at 1900 fps out of my muzzleloaders using 44 and 45 cal pistol bullets and can tell you they ALL run 60 to 120 yards in average using 250 and 300 grain 44 and 45 cal bullets. The following year after my 77/44 three deer harvesting in row within seconds I switched over to a 200 grain hollow point casted at 10.5 bh loaded at 2100 fps out of my 35 Rem. Best thing I ever did! It drops deer where they stand. Imo if you want to drop deer quick first, imo, you need the softest alloy your gun will shoot accurately. Second, your boolit needs to be traveling around the 2000/2100fps mark for a good energy dump. Third, you need need to use the softest alloy you gun will shoot accurately. I know alot of 44 mag pistol users and even with soft expanding, fragmenting,energy dumping, jacked ammo deer normally run at after shot with poor blood trails. To each their own, but I won’t use a pistol on deer any more. IMO a pistol caliber in a rifle still doesn’t dump enough energy for quick kill for me with well placed heart and lung shots. Not enough to drop them to keep them off my neighbors property of which I’m not allowed on to recover my animals. Most pistol calibers just don’t go fast enough to dump energy and provide enough hydrostatic shock for a quick kill. Once in a while someone will get lucky and drop a deer quick. But imo that’s not the normal. If you accidentally backbone, head, or neck by accident then you’ll at least anchor it. If it’s your first go with cast on deer I’d tell you to start with SOFT alloys in a rifle and load around 2,00fps. Good luck, keep us posted on what you decide and how the hunt pans out.

Found my old post with photos. It was a valuable learning lesson fir me.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?373867-First-deer(s)-with-cast-boolits!-Used-my-devastators!!!

I’m sure you can probably find my 35 Rem hollow point with deer wound channels post if you look here on the forum.

[rickt300]

My first cast bullet use was the old 45 caliber Maxi ball made for muzzleloaders cast out of wheel weights and loaded on top of a over maximum load of I4227 in a 45 Long Colt Hawes Western Marshal. Probably getting 1200 fps. I crimped it directly into the front driving band. I used to do a lot of bow hunting from trees in the national forests and used the same stands during gun season. All shots were under 35 yards and placed high shoulder after a behind the shoulder shot doe got into the dewberries causing me a lot of extra work and scratches. She only ran 25 yards. That blunt bullet did a lot of damage. Blood was very present and an exit was guaranteed. This is the only load I have ever used that would tear a pop can in half with one shot. In my opinion either gun you have will do just fine. I would definitely shoot for bone.

[Anchorite]

With your choices, I’d go 44 all day, every day. A good 44 is as good as it gets, and there’s nothing in the lower 48 that a 44 can’t harvest - you doing your part, of course. Load that 240-280 gr hard cast with a 8.5-9.0 grains of Unique and you’re set. HS-6 and 2400 are also good powder choices. Work up loads in your gun.

[Kosh75287]

The old rules of thumb for handgunning deer were:
1.) Nothing smaller than .40 caliber.
2.) Nothing lighter than 200 gr.
3.) Nothing slower than 1000 f/s at the muzzle.

Ordinarily, any of the pistols you mentioned would work, though the .45 ACP load would be something of an exception. Since you hunt where white tail deer can get somewhat on the large side, MY inclination would be to increase the previously listed minimae by 10% at minimum.
This removes both the 10mm and .45 ACP from consideration, since such ballistics are not safely obtainable in either round. On the other hand, a .429" 220 gr. cast projectile at 1100 f/s from the muzzle of your .44 Mag. M69 S&W is likely entirely possible. You may also find that 220 gr. at 1100 f/s is less "flinchy" to shoot than a 240-250 gr. slug at 1000 f/s (or not, but don't rule it out).

[Danyo]

UPDATE: The EAA Witness Hunter (a CZ-75 "clone") feeds and functions 100% with the WFN Double Tap hardcast ammo. For those who may have been curious.

Thanks Digital Dan, I took a long look. And thanks everyone else.

So it sounds like some expansion would be best in my case, and complete penetration is not as important as I thought. So now I am thinking to use Underwood 200 gr. XTPs through my 10mm. Or man-up and use JSP 44 Magnums through the revolver. If I did use hardcast, shoot through the shoulders to drop the deer, or I may have a hard time finding it.

Oh, and I do not cast my own bullets! Haha, I should probably start if I am going to hang out here. The bullets in the OP I was talking about had a BHN of 21 or 22. That's pretty hard, right? These would be more suited for grizzly bear defense? I did not realize it, but the 45acp bullet I was talking about has a BHN of 15. Would that be soft enough to mushroom a bit at it's limited velocity of about 925 fps?

[hades]

21 or 22 is pretty hard.

15 is getting hard enough as well and won't do anything at 45 acp speeds.

10mm is a fun round though and deer hunting is the sole reason I bought one as well!

Naturally after I get mold(s) i haven't shot at a deer since... But I've killed a few with HPs.

[Danyo]

Man, the 44 was shooting well tonight. Any suggestions on cast lead hunting bullets for it that a guy can buy? The ones I am finding online seem to be pretty hard, as in BHN of 18.

[Messy bear]

Number 9 and 14 are pretty good posts.
I think you would be well served by some form of jacketed hollow point to start with in the 44. Load to 1150 and go hunting.
All the deer in all the years we used those HP’s even the super soft old hornady hollow point or the super expanding Rem scalloped HP never failed to exit broadside shots but definitely hit harder than non expanding. The Remingtons were soft enough to gut prairie dogs and send them spinning. We shot a lot of mule deer with them as well. Good all around load.

[Messy bear]

Have had very satisfactory results from cast as well. A Texas heart shot or through the differential with cast works well too. I don’t worry about meat loss with slow cast as they don’t grenade the area. If the rear end is out they won’t go anywhere

[vmthtr]

https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/44-mag-lbt-280gr-wfn-gc/
I would not hesitate to use these.

[Danyo]

Yep that's pretty much what I bought. You'd use them even though they are hard? Just go for a high shoulder shot?

[vmthtr]

Yep that's pretty much what I bought. You'd use them even though they are hard? Just go for a high shoulder shot?

Yep

[Indiana shooter]

I have taken 3 deer with a handgun, 2 with a .44 mag and 1 with a .357 mag. The .357 was a 4" S&W and I was using a 158gr XTP. The deer was directly below me, at maybe 5 yards. I'm not convinced that that bullet opened because of the small exit and minimum damage inside. I did, however, place the bullet where it needed to go and watched the deer drop after 3 minutes or so.

The second deer was with the .44 using a hand loaded 240gr XTP. This was about a 40 yard shot and the animal was only on her feet for a few seconds after the shot. The bad thing was that I found the expanded bullet in the ribs on the off side, the shot was only slightly quartering away angle.

My third deer was taken with a 265gr hardcast flat nose boolit cast of pure linotype, then heat treated. This shot was perfectly placed just over the heart at a distance of 30 yards. While the internal damage and exit was much larger than the XTP bullet out of the .357 it still took about 2 1/2 minutes to hear the crash. The biggest difference between the hardcast .44 and the HP out of the .357 was the blood trail. I had a nice, consistent blood trail from the shot location to the dead deer with the hardcast, and if I didn't see the deer fall with the XTP I'm not sure I would've been able to find her. Anecdotal at best, sometimes the deer just don't give up the ghost that easily.

I'm going to use my .44 solely this year to gun hunt. My load will be close to a 50/50 mix alloy with a 265gr RNFP over 23 gr of H-110.

As far as which gun or load you should choose, I'd choose whichever one you can place the shot where it needs to be best. If your answer for that is that you shoot both of them equally well then I'd choose the .44 mag with a heavy, big meplat boolit.

[Danyo]

Excellent, thanks for the info guys. Glad to hear you got a good blood trail with the hardcast. I'll spend hours looking for blood if I have to. I'm very surprised the 44 mag XTP didn't exit.

I did end up finding a roadkill deer last week, probably a 150 pound doe, and brought it to the farm for some testing. I tested a 44 magnum 180 grain soft point, 10mm Underwood 200 grain XTP, and 10mm Federal 200 grain Swift A-Frame. I shot it broadside with each load at 5 yards and at 30 yards. All exited. I found an A-Frame that expanded nicely. I found an XTP that expanded even more but lost it's jacket. The 44's zipped right through, I did not find those. On water jugs at 5 yards these 44's expanded to 0.491" and were caught in the 6th jug, and at 30 yards on water jugs it expanded the nose to about 0.35". Pretty interesting I thought. Oh, then I shot the deer carcass in the thickest part of the shoulders broadside with the 10mm XTP and while it had mushroomed nicely, it was stuck under the hide of the opposite side.

I recently shot some 44 mag 225 grain Barnes copper hollowpoint factory loads, and those did not recoil hard at all in the model 69. I might buy some 200 grain 44 mag XTP bullets, and work up a handload for those. As the Barnes factory load expanded to 0.8" in the milk jug test and was caught in only the 3rd jug. The XTPs may expand less and penetrate further I think, and still not recoil hard.

Also, since I do not cast my own bullets, and cannot find soft-ish cast bullets from a commercial caster, couldn't I buy 240 grain JSP bullets and launch them at 1000-1100 fps for deer hunting? They usually don't seem to have a sharp edge or super large meplat, but they may mushroom or rivet a little, even though they did not do that in my milk jug tests. They'd zip right through 8 jugs and be found with little to no deformation. These were factory loads rated at 1180 fps. But I suppose if you hit some hide and/or bone they may expand a little.

I don't know... At least I've been having some fun doing all this testing. I find it pretty fascinating.

[Indiana shooter]

Like I said it was a quartering away shot. The bullet entered about the 3rd or 4th rib up. I found the jacket just inside the body cavity leaving the mangled lead core to traverse through the liver, both lungs and coming to rest against a rib underneath the shoulder.

About the 200gr XTP, I loaded some for my kids H&R for deer when they were much younger. This was an 18" barrel and IIRC I was loading 8gr of Unique to produce a muzzle velocity of 1100fps. They killed 2 deer deer with this load. One was a passthrough behind the shoulder, the other broke the shoulder and lodged under the hide on the off side.

You can try to anneal the commercial cast. See if you can softer it. I know some companies use a heat treating process to get harder boolits. To do this, set the base of the boolit in a pan of water with the nose exposed. I would like the water line up to the crimping groove. Then heat the nose up with a blow torch until you see it get "shiny". Give it a few days before testing it

[Indiana shooter]

316405

I did that with this boolit that I tested out of muzzleloader at a velocity of 1600 fps. Higher velocity than we'll get out of a handgun, but you may get better riveting or expansion than none.

P.s. hopefully the pic uploads. It only seems to work sometimes for me.

[Danyo]

Interesting, sounds easy enough, I will give it a try!

[Rockindaddy]

Dan: I have shot the 240 gr Lyman Keith boolit for many years. I try for a 1-20 tin/lead alloy. No antimony at all. Have taken many deer with my 44Mags. Recently acquired an RCBS 2-cavity 429 300 gr that I shoot with 16.5 grs of Winchester 680 ball powder (have around 40 lbs of the stuff). This load is a freight train out of my Colt Annaconda. Good Bambi shoulder breaker! Hard cast usually pass through a deer. A soft boolit transfers most of its energy in the game. I skin em out and butcher my deer on my farm. I like finding the projectile just under the hide on the opposite side of the entry. Its rare to find a bullet in a shot deer though. Good luck experimenting!

[Hickok]

For sake of a common milk jug reference:

Typical police duty auto hollowpoints will typically penetrate three. Sometimes you'll get four. Some of the more "pancakey" will stop in two.

I've had 70% meplat diameter 230gr. .45 and 135gr. 9mm a non+P speeds take nine jugs to stop.

Any of your listed options will do, but the revolver's lack of need to mechanically feed a round up a ramp will allow a more aggressive meplat, and possibly, a little faster bleed out as a result.I agree with this. I was truly amazed at the penetration of the Lee .356-120-TC loaded in my 9mm pistols. My load clocks @ 1140 fps from a Glock 19x.

Decided to try this 9mm on water jugs. Gave up at 6 jugs, and still could not stop the 9mm Lee 120 T/C. Perfect straight line penetration.

9mm FMJ ball ammo curves and veers out of the jugs irregularly.

My .44 mag and .45 Colt loads from 900 to about 1250 fps all easily penetrate 6 jugs. They go through deer like they are made of tissue paper.

[brasshog]

I have a 4.25" Smith and Wesson Model 69 44 Magnum also. I prefer 245gr SWHP's for lighter skinned animals personally. I run them at about 1290 fps (stout) and the mold that I use also makes the flat point version of course.

Here's the data : https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?446717-44-Magnum-LSWC-HP

[atfsux]

As others have said here;...shot placement is king, all else follows. So while it may sound like heresy here where many argue incessantly about the best boolit for this or that purpose, terminal performance of the projectile on target is not as critical your ability to put it there. Therefor, my answer would be "whichever one you are most accurate with". If you are able to reliably place your boolit in that animal where it will do what needs to be done, the particular design and construction of that boolit ALMOST doesn't matter.

As the old gunfighter maxim goes, "a .22 in the eye is a lot better than a .44 in the big toe."

[DougGuy]

I'm gonna stick with old skool, tried and true. Take the S&W, load it with the Lee C430-310-RF cast in 50/50+2%, gas checked, soft lube even SPG works good for this load, 17.0gr 2400, WLP. This gets me 1180~1200fps from a 7 1/2" SBH. This load is also assembled with the boolit seated to the bottom crimp groove giving it the loner COA than seating in the top crimp groove. If you have to seat it in the upper crimp groove to use the shorter COA be advised you will need different load data than what I posted.

[Lloyd Smale]

some may argue my opinion but if it starts with at least a 4 youll be ok. 41mag/10mm will work but the 44 and 45s are where cast bullets really shine. some will tell you bigger is better but on thin skinned game ive really seen no difference between 44s and my linebaughs. when your talking something the size of moose and bison the bigger guns probably have and advatage but that said i showed up at mt buddts game farm to cull some pigs he wanted dead and took mt 4 5/8s super loadek with 240 rcbs swcgc bullets at 1100fps. shot 5 pigs that day. when we were done he said he had a 1000 lb coe bison he wanted dead because it had a lame front leg and he said shoot it and you can have it. i would have preferred a bigger gun but "love the one your with" i shot it broadside at about 75 yards and it dropped like the ground had been jerked away. hands dowm the quickest kill ive seen on a bison and ive seen many killed with rifle and handguns and with cast and jacketed bullets. might have been a bit of luck but it sure got it done. for deer my preference goes to 44 spec and mag with a cast swc or lfn at around 900-1000 fps. ive killed many with 45 colts loaded the same and it works equally well. but im one of the rare ones that prefer the 44s. mostly because across the board ive had better luck with accuracy in my 44s. but that said on a whitetail at 50b yards theres not much of a difference in a 1 in group and a 3in group. im a big fan of the bigger guns but honestly they buy you very little on something 500lbs or less. matter of fact on pids id chose a 44 over my linebaughs. with the light recoil of even full power 44s you can get back on target faster if you need to shoot more then one. just dont base your opinion on knock down. ive shot probably a 100 deer using about every caliber and id say on average with perfect shot placement deer will make 50 yards before piling up.

[Ramjet-SS]

The hardcast will be fine put it in the boiler room. Wide meplat is preferred WFN or LWFN. Cast Bullet Performance by Veral is a great book and explains the temporary tissue disruption from WFN Cast which leads to lethality. In addition hardcast bullets penetrate and ventilate good blood trails. In addition not all shots are exactly perfect angles, deer moves as you pull the trigger etc… so deeper penetration helps get into the vitals which is the goal. So either gun you are suggesting will work with hardcast. But accuracy first, the bullets will do the rest. Practice allot and enjoy the journey.

[Tom_in_AZ]

I’m a bit partial to large meplats. I’d go for the largest diameter possible at a reasonable velocity. If you haven’t read it already, John Linebaugh has a great article about the 45 colt and all the game taken with it a modest velocities.