Got Verdigris?

[Rockindaddy]

I like to cast boolits and loading and shooting my own ammo. Really like this site too. But maybe its me but if I put my ammo in a leather loop cartridge belt and forget about it hanging on a nail in a closet or sitting in a leather pouch for some time, the cartridges turn green! Plastic jars, or cartridge cases don't seem to be bothered by this green gunk. Its called Verdigris!!! Steel wool or a soft wire wheel removes the stuff. Went and found out the Statue of Liberty has turned green from carbon dioxide in the atmosphere combines with the copper alloy. Even tried to rub the green cases with citric acid solution to remove the green guck. Brasso will clean the cases in time but is slow. I don't shoot in Cowboy Action anymore. Shooting my Sharps rifle with the 45-70 cases in a leather bandolier; they turn green if left in the leather loops. Maybe there is someone out there that has a fix for Verdigris !!!!313745

[HWooldridge]

Any modern leather has been tanned with chemicals which make verdigris formation worse. It will be greatly minimized if you can find some true, brain-tanned leather for shell belts.

My uncle had a .38 cartridge belt that was made in Mexico during the 1930’s and the shells would tarnish to black but never corroded. He carried that belt on a saddle out in the weather so it had every opportunity to deteriorate.

[dondiego]

I use nickel plated cases in leather loops. I think that the leather has acid (tannic?) that causes the verdigris. I have been told to be careful with Brasso as it weakens the brass. Verdigris may do the same as the green is likely copper.

[blackthorn]

Verdigris to brass is what rust is to steel! It eats it! Left alone long enough and it will eat holes in the brass case! It is caused by a reaction between the brass and the stuff used to tan the leather. To negate the problem, you can use the Nickel plated cases or get belts/ holsters made of fabric. You might try putting a coat of wax on cases kept in a leather belt, but that can open up a whole different set of problems---maybe. Do not use Brasso or other cleaner/polishers that contain Ammonia on brass. Ammonia destroys brass over time making it unsafe to fire. There have been instances where primers exposed to even the fumes from Ammonia have been ruined. If you do use Brasso, be sure to really clean the cases immediately after you use it, that may help.

[405grain]

This is just my opinion, others may have different ideas. When I left 44 mag ammo in a pistol belt for way too long and discovered verdigris, first I pulled the bullets and set them aside so they could be re-cast. I dumped the powder into a ziplok bag, then sprinkled it into the soil in the house plants. (toss out onto the lawn is optional) Since the verdigris hadn't spread to the case heads, I used a Lee universal de-primeing tool and gently removed the primers. I reused the primers on some later loads. I ordered some new 44 mag brass, and threw the "rusty" 44 mag brass in the trash. After that I stored my ammo properly in boxes, and only loaded an ammo belt during the times that I was actually wearing it.

[lar45]

Is there a difference between vegetable tanned leather and chemical tanned?

[mdi]

First 3 replies are spot on. Add perspiration for a cause of verdigris. The green stuff is why Police Depts. went to nickel plated cartridges when keeping ammo in cartridge belts...

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=chemical+tanned+vs+vegetable+tanned+leather%3F&atb=v314-1&t=chromentp&ia=web

[huntinlever]

Yep, had the same issue when I forgot 45-70 ammo for years in my leather belt carrier. Pulled bullets, discarded powder in garden, tossed the brass.

Used to make aged, alpine hard cheeses in traditional copper vat. Verdigris is nothing to take lightly, though it needs to be ingested I believe, and in decent quantities.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

"nickel plated cartridges "

[huntinlever]

"nickel plated cartridges "

I've shied away from nickel as I've read they really beat up on dies. No?

[Electrod47]

there is someone out there that has a fix for Verdigris !

Yeah, Nickel cases

[Der Gebirgsjager]

No known cure that I am aware of, and I've suffered the same problem. You can slow it down a bit by applying a thin coating of Vaseline to the inside of the loops, but left long enough the cases will still turn green. It's one of those problems like mildew on leather that doesn't seem to have a permanent solution. You can clean it off, but it will re-occur. Probably the best thing is to periodically remove the cartridges from the loops and wipe them down sparingly with a cleaner like Hoppe's No.9, or as suggested, go to nickel plated cases. They are not hard on reloading dies. I've reloaded thousands of nickel plated .38 special cases in dies that remain almost like new.

DG

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I've shied away from nickel as I've read they really beat up on dies. No?
Yeah, when the nickel starts flaking off.
.
I've had that issue with 223rem and wrecked a die. I've seen the flaking with 30-06 and 38spl, but tossed the brass before I ran it through the dies. Ya just gotta be watchful. I've loaded lots of pistol nickel brass, 9mm, 357mag, 38spl, 40, 45acp, 45colt, 44mag...but only seen the flaking with one batch of real old 38spl I bought once. I think the flaking is more of a bottle neck cartridge thing.

[huntinlever]

Yeah, when the nickel starts flaking off.
.
I've had that issue with 223rem and wrecked a die. I've seen the flaking with 30-06 and 38spl, but tossed the brass before I ran it through the dies. Ya just gotta be watchful. I've loaded lots of pistol nickel brass, 9mm, 357mag, 38spl, 40, 45acp, 45colt, 44mag...but only seen the flaking with one batch of real old 38spl I bought once. I think the flaking is more of a bottle neck cartridge thing.

Thanks.

[huntinlever]

No known cure that I am aware of, and I've suffered the same problem. You can slow it down a bit by applying a thin coating of Vaseline to the inside of the loops, but left long enough the cases will still turn green. It's one of those problems like mildew on leather that doesn't seem to have a permanent solution. You can clean it off, but it will re-occur. Probably the best thing is to periodically remove the cartridges from the loops and wipe them down sparingly with a cleaner like Hoppe's No.9, or as suggested, go to nickel plated cases. They are not hard on reloading dies. I've reloaded thousands of nickel plated .38 special cases in dies that remain almost like new.

DG

Thanks as well. I've got enough Starline 45-70 to last a lifetime, but not the same with anything else, most especially .338 WM. Opens some options.

[45_Colt]

Funny how Rockindaddy hasn't responded to this thread since he/she opened it.

Early on I was going to post what most ended up saying, pull the bullets to re-cast, save (or dump?) the powder and trash the primers. Toss the cases. But I didn't want to be the bearer of bad news.

There is no saving that brass. Just recover what can be and move on.

45_Colt

[jonp]

Clean the brass and some Johnson's Wax or equivalent will help you out

[mdi]

I've shied away from nickel as I've read they really beat up on dies. No?

No. My 38 Special, 357 Magnum, 44 Magnum Nickel plated cases have no adverse affects on my plain old Lee dies after many years (30) of reloading...

[JSnover]

Funny how Rockindaddy hasn't responded to this thread since he/she opened it.

Early on I was going to post what most ended up saying, pull the bullets to re-cast, save (or dump?) the powder and trash the primers. Toss the cases. But I didn't want to be the bearer of bad news.

There is no saving that brass. Just recover what can be and move on.

45_Colt

Maybe the wife is keeping him busy this weekend...

I've salvaged jacketed bullets for plinkers but never brass.

[Land Owner]

I bought a reloader's estate containing about five-thousand factory 38 Spc and 357 Mag rounds, most with verdigris on the cases due to age and humidity in storage. I loaded ammo for about a week in a pair of tumblers, with walnut media and a smidgeon of brass polish, and turned them on in two-hour cycles. I do the same for spent cases.

The loaded ammo cases clean and brighten just as nicely. Whether there is ANY difference (vel., POI, damage to exposed bullets, etc.) between oscillated ammo and not, I cannot tell. The ammo shoots where I aim and every one goes bang. I am not afraid to tumble loaded ammo, handgun or rifle.

[mdi]

FWIW; verdigris is more of a discoloration and fuzz on brass, copper, and bronze than corrosion. (I kinda chuckle when I see "verdigris" as my first thought is the color. Bluish green, aqua). If the verdigris actually makes pits and erodes brass it is now corrosion. All corroded brass I come across is tossed in the scrap bucket. Don't even bother to try and clean any up...

[dondiego]

FWIW; verdigris is more of a discoloration and fuzz on brass, copper, and bronze than corrosion. (I kinda chuckle when I see "verdigris" as my first thought is the color. Bluish green, aqua). If the verdigris actually makes pits and erodes brass it is now corrosion. All corroded brass I come across is tossed in the scrap bucket. Don't even bother to try and clean any up...

What I have seen is more like a green wax on brass screws on holsters and cartridge cases in leather. The discoloration on the casings seems to be permanent.

[deces]

I think Verdigris is the name I read about years ago to describe the red brass cancer, is this the same name for the chemical reaction when the stable zinc crashes out of brass?

[GregLaROCHE]

I had a place for six rounds on my 44 mag. Since there weren’t that many I would just shoot them when they started to turn. Once I left the gun sitting over the winter and by spring, they were all green. I took them out and put them in a cup on my work bench. They keep on turning greener with time.

[blackthorn]

Quote: "What I have seen is more like a green wax on brass screws on holsters and cartridge cases in leather. The discoloration on the casings seems to be permanent."

My experience is that if the verdigris has not progressed beyond simple discoloration, it can be wiped/polished off and no short or long term harm comes from any residual discoloration. Verdigris only becomes problematic when it progresses to the point that the brass is compromised ("rusted" through so to speak). I have (as someone else mentioned) put loaded rounds into the polisher and removed most of the green from them. Thereafter the brass, (both rifle and pistol) although stained remained useful through many more firings.

[billmc2]

Is there a difference between vegetable tanned leather and chemical tanned?

Yes there is. Veg tan leather is tanned the traditional way using tannins from plants. It can be molded and carved. It takes about 3 months to tan a hide using this method. As far as I know, all gun leather is veg tanned because it won't react to the gun's metal.

A common chemical tanning process is chrome tanned. This uses chromium salts to tan the leather. This process takes about 3 days to complete. It is generally softer than veg tanned leather. It can not be carved or molded. The chromium salts, over time, will react with the gun and damage the gun.

[Rockindaddy]

Hey 45 Colt: I am here ! Have read all of the great responses to my inquiry. I like to carry a leather belt full of 45-70's for my Sharps rifle. Have a bunch of nickel cases. Think I will separate my nickel cases and use them in my leather cartridge belt instead of brass. Several guys have responded and have endorsed nickel cases instead of brass in leather pouches or belts. I load a lot of 45-70's Will use my brass cartridges in my Gatlings and pull all the nickel cases. 45 Colt is another round that does not keep well in leather. The verdigris bandit collects on them too. Nickel I guess is the answer. Thanks for all the response!!

[45_Colt]

Hey 45 Colt: I am here ! Have read all of the great responses to my inquiry. I like to carry a leather belt full of 45-70's for my Sharps rifle. Have a bunch of nickel cases. Think I will separate my nickel cases and use them in my leather cartridge belt instead of brass. Several guys have responded and have endorsed nickel cases instead of brass in leather pouches or belts. I load a lot of 45-70's Will use my brass cartridges in my Gatlings and pull all the nickel cases. 45 Colt is another round that does not keep well in leather. The verdigris bandit collects on them too. Nickel I guess is the answer. Thanks for all the response!!

We're good, I lost track of what actual day it was. I was thinking several days went by but it was only a few hours. That's what I get for being awake in the middle of the night and sleeping during the day.

Nickel plated brass is a good way to go. Very resistant to corrosion. Quite a bit of revolver defense rounds are in nickel for that reason. They can sit in the chambers for long periods of time.

45_Colt

[elmacgyver0]

I bought a reproduction cartridge belt for my 45-70 ammo that has canvas loops on a leather belt, never have a problem with verdigris.
Perhaps the pony soldiers knew a thing or two.

[John in WYO]

OP,
You are SO taking me down memory lane with this post.
Hired on a PD in 1977. S&W Model 15 4” and a 12 round cartridge belt slide loaded with personally purchased (or handloaded as it was not prohibited at the time) .38 Special ammo.

We had to stand inspection and present our weapons and ammo for the Shift Commander daily. I used a lot of Simichrome polish to keep my cartridges shiny and clean for the next ten years until we switched to auto-pistols.

Some of the old timers did show up up with verdigris ( great job on spelling, btw!) on their cartridges.

[FAAFO6]

Ballistol (sp? ) works well on the leather. I had seen that somewhere and tried it. It seems to be very helpful FWIW.

[gnappi]

I'm using nickle pistol brass with carbide dies for 40+ years and still have the dies. Maybesteel dies had the issue?

[Tall]

I clean cases in a Fart tumbler. Then I put them in a Lyman vibrator with pecan shell media over night. They come out clean and shiny. No issues. I would not try and clean old ammo. That's looking for trouble.