Old Ideal/Marlin mold - can this be repaired?

[Petander]

I'm talking to a gunsmith about welding and he is asking about the mold material.

Are these cast?

Any repair ideas are welcome, this mold just fell apart during my second casting session.

https://i.postimg.cc/7YV6vsmf/IMG-20230505-184900-476-3.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/Hsxh9jcj/IMG-20230505-191627-090.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/pdpj0bQf/IMG-20230505-184755-672.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/9FDjFLBx/IMG-20230505-184645-354.jpg

[Rockingkj]

Can’t tell you about repairing your mold but you have my heartfelt sympathy for the breakage. Rare tool. I could be wrong but suspect was cast and machined given the way it broke. I bet the gunsmith will be able to tell when seen in person. Modern welding can do miracles, hope your loved one recovers to be able to return to work. Keep us advised as to progress.

[Bent Ramrod]

Those Ideal tools were made of malleable iron, so I would say that welding is out. However it could be brazed back together, if someone could make a proper holding fixture and was an expert brazier. The joint would be like a solder joint, but too high melting to be affected by casting temperatures.

I’ve seen any number of mangled Ideal tools but that is the first broken one. People sometimes sawed off the mould blocks and smoothed over the cuts so the original #4 or #6 looked like a #3 or #10 tool. You could cut the other block off, smooth the ends, cut mortises and drill and thread holes for Lee handles, but you would need at least a lathe with a milling vise for the job.

[kootne]

I would try silver solder, not the Brownells low temp stuff but the original type that has a much higher melting point. It will wick into a tiny gap following the melting flux. Do it with the parts clamped and the mold closed. If you look around , I'm sure you can find some old local guy with the expertise to do it.

[longbow]

I'd go with silver solder or brazing as well. If the broken faces are cleaned chemically so as not to significantly alter them then the break is fit together and mold halves clamped in place you might get a reasonable repair with silver solder or brazing. Either will require significant heating but silver solder will be lower temperature than brazing. Alignment of the mould faces will be critical of course because you want them within about 0.001" or 0.002".

Not sure of material but mehanite iron was the preferred mould material used by Ideal and Lyman. Mehanite is a ductile cast iron.

Take a look on page #62:

https://www.lawsonproducts.com/media/cache/pdfs/C555_LawsonWeldingTechGuide_AD.pdf

It is worth a try because the mould is no good as is.

Good luck!

Longbow

[Teddy (punchie)]

Finland ....Welding if /solder doesn't your would need more it for information on the type of cast. Some welding rods today are very good for this. Some are just wrong and act like glass. If welding maybe try to run a weld on the handle end and see. I would say preheat and a TIG machine and the right rod and gas would be the best. Maybe talk to a tech school. Some gas welding can do a good job also on old cast if you get things just right.

[country gent]

You have a good break to realign with I would use a shoulder bolt in the alignment hole and clamp the block with a small cant twist clamp or parallel clamp then lightly clamp the handles closed and braze it with a good bronze brazing rod. The issue I see is the heat to braze or weld may soften it.

First do a spark test cast iron will be a little red ball no tail cast steel or a forging will have a tail, this will give an idea of what your working with

[Mk42gunner]

My guess is TIG brazing may work, may not either. The big question is would it be worth it?

The side that is still attached doesn't look all that good to me. It may be best to just set this unit aside for display. Not everything can be economically repaired, especially if you have to pay to get it done.

Robert

[wilecoyote]

[QUOTE=Petander;5573448]I'm talking to a gunsmith about welding and he is asking about the mold material.
Are these cast?
Any repair ideas are welcome, this mold just fell apart during my second casting session.

CASTOLIN alloy will be your friend_ they gas-braze go-kart frames, whit this alloy

[Winger Ed.]

Rather than taking it to a gunsmith,
I'd look for a welding/machining shop that has a guy at least 50 years old working there, and ask him.

[bedbugbilly]

I have a number of the Ideal tong tools but can't answer your question. If you are wanting to save the tool in order to cast that particular boolit - you could clamp the mold pieced together, cast some samples for patterns and have someone like Accurate make a set of mold blocks - if not already available in an old set of Ideal blocks.

[Soundguy]

Could be tig'd easy..even iron. Brazen would work... I'd avoid soldering... No need to be dropping bullets a couple hundred below your joint melt temp.

Probably could drill and pin it..then rig or braze. Might disassemble first.

[tja6435]

I’ve brazed a cast iron linkage adjuster for a 3 point on my old tractor and the fix has been surprisingly strong. I got the brazing rods from Home Depot, I did have to drag out my oxy/propane torch as MAPP gas wouldn’t melt the brazing rods at all. I cleaned up the joint with a flap disc on a grinder, that link is currently lifting one side of a 700# tiller

[wilecoyote]

in the case of brazing the mold, the point lies in heating the parts to be joined sufficiently, almost to red, because at that point the Castolin rod will be approached and, by relatively low-temp melting, it will occupy & joint every fractured surfaces in a capillary and definitive manner.
this obviously if/where a tig-welding is impossible.

[Soundguy]

in the case of brazing the mold, the point lies in heating the parts to be joined sufficiently, almost to red, because at that point the Castolin rod will be approached and, by relatively low-temp melting, it will occupy & joint every fractured surfaces in a capillary and definitive manner.
this obviously if/where a tig-welding is impossible.

If you think it's impossible to tig that..you havnt welded enough..no disrespect..just saying. Braze is completely different than weld. Braze is brass glue... Weld fuses metal. If you want to get fancy gluing... Silicon bronze...

Ps.. You can tig braze...

Ps.. You can tig iron to stainless.

Ps.. Using a 2 step process you can solder steel and copper to aluminum. I keep a piece of aluminum bar stock in my shop that has a copper pipe fitting and a cad and zinc plated nuts, and plain gr5 steel bolt soldered to it. Good proof for the naysayers...

I can tell there are people here that don't weld for a living...

[longbow]

Yes it could be TIG welded but I am betting that by welding there will be uneven shrinakge and distorion. Remember that the mould faces have to be in alignment by about 0.001" to 0.002".

Brazing or silver soldering requires heating to red but the filler wicks in like solder and won't induce the same stresses after cooling that welding does. I am not talking low temperature solder here but bronze brazing rod or high temperature/high strength silver solder.

Longbow

[Soundguy]

That's the nice thing about TIG welding you can just do it very slowly and in small stitches and you don't even have to get it as hot as brazing and the ideal way to do with the beat the clamp the mold in a fixture where the mold halves are pre-aligned and then weld it. Overall TIG would heat up the piece a lot less than braising it. You can tig stuff that is thin enough to melt and blow away when gas brazing...thats the nice quality..very very localized heat.

[wilecoyote]

If you think it's impossible to tig that..you havnt welded enough..no disrespect..just saying. Braze is completely different than weld. Braze is brass glue... Weld fuses metal. If you want to get fancy gluing... Silicon bronze...
Ps.. You can tig braze...
Ps.. You can tig iron to stainless.
Ps.. Using a 2 step process you can solder steel and copper to aluminum. I keep a piece of aluminum bar stock in my shop that has a copper pipe fitting and a cad and zinc plated nuts, and plain gr5 steel bolt soldered to it. Good proof for the naysayers...
I can tell there are people here that don't weld for a living...

Soundguy, I'm not a TIG naysayer, on the contrary!
my observation regarding the TIG was preceded by if and when.
the meaning is that it is not always possible to have one's own TIG and know how to use it fully or to have a pro-shop nearby that can decide whether and how to proceed with welding.
and this always after having identified the composition of the metal to be repaired_

[farmbif]

like ed said, rather than taking to gunsmith find a good welder/fabricator if your not able to braze or use nickel 99 rods yourself. the way it broke it sure looks a lot like a cast or forged iron of some sort.
even if you were to tig it you would want to use bronze or nickel filler material. and whatever process it need to be heated first. one reason why brazing cast iron stuff is very popular the heating part is built into the bonding part. if that makes any sense.

[samari46]

Think you will have to pre heat the broken sections prior to welding. One of my welders after getting the right rod repaired a large crack in what was an 100 large vise. Someone gave us 4 vises to do what we wanted. 3 we more or less rebuilt with a friend in a machine shop. All we needed on them was the screw bushing. The 4th he wanted for his shop. Told him if he can fix it, it's his. He found a company location that did hot tanking for large engines. Brought it in the am and back in the pm. One of our engineers l new a metallurgist who identified the cast steel. and the best way to fix the crack. far as I know that vise is still working. Frank

[uscra112]

Those Ideal tools were made of malleable iron, so I would say that welding is out. .

^^^^THIS^^^^

Malleable iron has a lot of elemental carbon sequestered in nodules, (why it's now called nodular iron). Heating it to fusion temperature, no matter how you do it, will release that carbon, and the metal once cooled will be hard and extremely brittle.

Once upon a time I worked in an industrial plant where we did furnace brazing. One part we did was a fuel spray ring for a GE jet engine afterburner. There are high strength eutectic brazes that will do that job extremely well, and will easily handle casting temperatures once set, but every surface you do NOT want braze on must be painted with stop-off compound or you'll braze the mold shut for all time. (I spent hours dabbing stopoff into every one of the hundreds of little holes in that ring. Just one hole blocked by the braze would ruin the whole assembly.)