Win231 and 40sw

[dearslayer]

Anyone using Win231 with 165gr cast boolits? I don't have any data for this cast in my Lyman or Lee books. Can I use the data for Copper plated bullet of the same weight?

[chriskendziora]

Yes use cast data

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[dearslayer]

Yes use cast data

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That's my problem... I don't have data for cast for this boolit.

[P Flados]

At one end of the spectrum, things can be very safe. This is starting low, working up until you get reliable slide operation including last round hold open and then stopping.

Max loads in the 40 S&W are better if assembled with a full understanding of the potential impact of seating depth. Changing bullets can increase seating depth. For this round, increasing seating depth is your biggest risk for getting a bad result (significant chamber pressure increase). Quickload says a 0.008" increase in seating depth can require a 0.1 gr charge reduction.

Hodgdon on-line data for the Sierra 165 JHP is using a 0.593" long bullet that has a 0.298" seating depth at a 1.125" COAL according to Quickload. As long as you do not seat any deeper than 0.298" the Hodgdon data provides reasonable guidance. Start low & work up as always.

I saw some Campro data, but I did not see any info for bullet length and the data seemed incomplete (no velocity or pressure info).

[pworley1]

The Lyman No. 48 gives 4.3-5.8 for a 175g cast. That range should work for your bullet.

[justindad]

What mold are you using? How long is the bullet? What is your OAL?

[dearslayer]

The Lyman No. 48 gives 4.3-5.8 for a 175g cast. That range should work for your bullet.
I saw 2 boolits in my Lyman book for 2 different 175gr showing 4.3-5.8. Was thinking to use it as a starting point.

[dearslayer]

What mold are you using? How long is the bullet? What is your OAL?

I'm using the MP 402-165 TC 4 cavity Brass mold. The boolit is 0.5885. I've done a plunk test in the barrel and 1.1395 will plunk easily so 1.125 that is recommended for most data I've seen ( for Copper plated ) will plunk for sure.

[justindad]

Lyman’s Cast Bullet Manual #4 gives a starting chart for 231 of 4.3 grains with an OAL of 1.125” using the Lyman #401043 (175 grains) bullet. The velocity is 863 fps and pressure is 15,400 CUP. Max charge is 5.8 grains and max velocity is 977 fps. The three other bullets weighing 175 - 200 grain have max velocities with 232 of 964 - 1,001 fps. Tested with a 4” barrel. Consider your gun and barrel length, and pick for yourself a max safe velocity.

[justindad]

Also, some bullets have an unexplained behavior of going slower at higher pressure. Watch for pressure signs.

[justindad]

My copy of the 175 grain Lyman #401638 is 0.601” long.

[dearslayer]

Given my boolit is 166gr should I start at the 4.3gr and work up?

[justindad]

That’s what I would do. Got a chrono?

[dearslayer]

No unfortunately I don't have a chrono.One of the guys at my club has one and is gonna chrono some rounds with friends and asked me yesterday if i wanted to partake once I get some of these 40's loaded up. I'm using a para Ordnance 16/40 stainless Canadian made pistol with a 5" barrel.

[ranger391xt]

I tested HP-38/Win-231 loads with the HP version of the MP-401-165 TC. The bullets weighed 155 gr and were powder coated. These were tested in an S&W 4006.

My best groups with HP-38/Win-231, which fit inside the 9 ring of a B16-RC target, were with 5.0 and 5.3 grs. The 5.0 gr load had an average velocity of 957 fps, and the extreme spread for a 6 shot group was 32 fps and std dev of 12. The 5.3 gr load had an average velocity of 1024 fps, an extreme spread of 14 fps for 6 shots, and std dev of 6.

Groups were shot from a CTK Precision rest over a ProChrono DLX, target at 10 yds.

Of course, the disclaimer applies that this information should be used at your own risk, and your results may vary.




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[dearslayer]

I tested HP-38/Win-231 loads with the HP version of the MP-401-165 TC. The bullets weighed 155 gr and were powder coated. These were tested in an S&W 4006.

My best groups with HP-38/Win-231, which fit inside the 9 ring of a B16-RC target, were with 5.0 and 5.3 grs. The 5.0 gr load had an average velocity of 957 fps, and the extreme spread for a 6 shot group was 32 fps and std dev of 12. The 5.3 gr load had an average velocity of 1024 fps, an extreme spread of 14 fps for 6 shots, and std dev of 6.

Groups were shot from a CTK Precision rest over a ProChrono DLX, target at 10 yds.

Of course, the disclaimer applies that this information should be used at your own risk, and your results may vary.




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Thanks so much for the info. I think maybe my starting loads of 4.3 might be too low but better safe.

[dearslayer]

Ok so another issue that I've had in the past with the Lee factory Crimp die when loading cast boolits. After seating to desired depth I go to run it through the crimp die and it's difficult going in and takes some pressure and then it goes in and then it kind of jumps again before bottoming out at the crimp. Then when backing out it does the same thing only in reverse and the worst part is that it pulls the boolit back out!!i've taken it apart to clean and see nothing wrong with it. Its so frustrating because I have to check every round to ensure the boolit isn't pulled out.This doesn't happen with plated boolits.Plated goes in nice and smooth to crimp. Do I really need to crip these? It's making me not want to load cast and that sucks because I love casting and power coating and the whole process.

[justindad]

Your FCD is bad. Get a Redding profile crimp die. Until then - does your seater die have a crimp feature?
*
Note: it is best to seat and crimp in two separate operations. You can seat all bullets, and then reset your seating die so that it only crimps in the following operation.

[dearslayer]

Your FCD is bad. Get a Redding profile crimp die. Until then - does your seater die have a crimp feature?
*
Note: it is best to seat and crimp in two separate operations. You can seat all bullets, and then reset your seating die so that it only crimps in the following operation.
Legit question... In what way is it bad...what would happen to it under normal operation to cause it to do what it's doing? Yes I believe my Lee seating die has the crimp feature as well as seating.

[justindad]

It is not supposed to pull the bullet out of the case, so I’m figuring the inside diameter of your die is too small. Quality control is not one of the things associated with Lee. I use a FCD on .45 ACP and I know about the two clunks you described.
*
Remove the case sizing ring from your FCD so that the only operating is crimping. Let us know if that still pulls the bullet out.

[dearslayer]

That's weird because it happens on my .45 as well but again only with cast boolits. The .40sw is TC boolit and it almost feels like the die is hitting the lead boolit before it touches the case. I'm glad someone else knows about the two clunks. I thought I was losing my mind. I post on another forum and nobody knew what I was talking about. I'll do as you suggested to see what happens.

[dearslayer]

Looking at the die I only see one removable component. This bushing is all that moves inside the die.

[justindad]

It’s strange that you have two dies pulling the lead boolits out… maybe there’s something else going on. Either way, it’ll be good to remove that sizing ring.
*
The first clunk is the sizing ring. The second clunk is the crimp. Look at a loaded round and notice that the boolit makes the case bulge out. The small diameter under the bullet allows for radial clearance with the sizing ring, then as you lower the cartridge the sizing ring again hits the large section where the boolit is.

[dearslayer]

This what I see in the die. 313724313725

Does that ring inside the die come out or is it a permanent thing. It doesn't seem to move and I don't want to damage it by trying.

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[Grayone]

Tungsten sizing ring. Permanent. Negates the use of lube. I still make sure the brass is clean before using.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Sorry I got here late but this doesn't have to be so Complicated.

My standard load for my .40 S&W Glock 23 and 35 and my Ruger PCC in .40 S&W is, and has always been, 5.4 gr of W231 with either a Copper Plated 165 gr boolit or a cast and PC'd 165 gr MP 402-165 boolits. I have loaded and shot Thousands of these and will be doing another run soon. I load mine on a Dillon 550B.

This load is "Mid Range" and functions perfectly in my Glocks and Rifle. There is no need to be scared of this cartridge as long as you don't decide to Hot Rod it up in to the danger zone. The paper or steel targets you are going to shoot will not know the difference in an extra 50-100 fps!!! If you need HD ammo go buy some Hornady Critical Defense ammo. don't try to make your own !.

The whole purpose of loading for this Round or for 9mm, is to make practice ammo that is cheap!

One thing you do need to do as a "Case Prep Operation" is run your cases thru a Bulge Buster Die. You already have a Lee Factory Crimp Die? And all you need to do is remove the crimp function and just push all your cases thru the sizing ring which will get rid of any bulges due to unsupported chambers or other chamber imperfections.

This could be the reason why you get the "Clunks " you talk about? Note; this is NOT a Full Length Sizing Die and you can't run your cases all the way thru a FL die, the base will not compress enough to go thru. The Lee Factory Crimp Die has a sizing ring that sizes the cases down to about .421-2. Then you must FL size them as part of your normal loading process. All the factory crimp die does is make the case a uniform diameter over the entire case. Or as stated ,,, Remove the Bulge!

You also need a Taper Crimp on the case that measures .416-.418 at the top edge of the case to hold the boolit in place. This is not an OPTIONAL operation!!! You can do it with your Factory Crimp Die reassembled with the "Crimp Function" in place.. Failure to do this step is to invite a boolit being pushed back into the case resulting in a massive Pressure Spike which can blow up your gun and maybe even you!

All that said as long as you don't try to hotrod the round you will be fine. Hope this helps?

Randy.

[dearslayer]

Sorry I got here late but this doesn't have to be so Complicated.

My standard load for my .40 S&W Glock 23 and 35 and my Ruger PCC in .40 S&W is, and has always been, 5.4 gr of W231 with either a Copper Plated 165 gr boolit or a cast and PC'd 165 gr MP 402-165 boolits. I have loaded and shot Thousands of these and will be doing another run soon. I load mine on a Dillon 550B.

This load is "Mid Range" and functions perfectly in my Glocks and Rifle. There is no need to be scared of this cartridge as long as you don't decide to Hot Rod it up in to the danger zone. The paper or steel targets you are going to shoot will not know the difference in an extra 50-100 fps!!! If you need HD ammo go buy some Hornady Critical Defense ammo. don't try to make your own !.

The whole purpose of loading for this Round or for 9mm, is to make practice ammo that is cheap!

One thing you do need to do as a "Case Prep Operation" is run your cases thru a Bulge Buster Die. You already have a Lee Factory Crimp Die? And all you need to do is remove the crimp function and just push all your cases thru the sizing ring which will get rid of any bulges due to unsupported chambers or other chamber imperfections.

This could be the reason why you get the "Clunks " you talk about? Note; this is NOT a Full Length Sizing Die and you can't run your cases all the way thru a FL die, the base will not compress enough to go thru. The Lee Factory Crimp Die has a sizing ring that sizes the cases down to about .421-2. Then you must FL size them as part of your normal loading process. All the factory crimp die does is make the case a uniform diameter over the entire case. Or as stated ,,, Remove the Bulge!

You also need a Taper Crimp on the case that measures .416-.418 at the top edge of the case to hold the boolit in place. This is not an OPTIONAL operation!!! You can do it with your Factory Crimp Die reassembled with the "Crimp Function" in place.. Failure to do this step is to invite a boolit being pushed back into the case resulting in a massive Pressure Spike which can blow up your gun and maybe even you!

All that said as long as you don't try to hotrod the round you will be fine. Hope this helps?

Randy.

The taper crimp on mine is 0.421 and I can't push the boolit in any further by pushing it against the bench. Should I try to put more crimp on them?

[Kosh75287]

If you cannot push the bullet in further by pushing it hard against the bench, you are probably right where you need to be, on the crimp. One other thing you might try is a taper crimp die, used in a separate step after seating. It IS extra work, but the improvements in feeding and accuracy can be dramatic

[dearslayer]

If you cannot push the bullet in further by pushing it hard against the bench, you are probably right where you need to be, on the crimp. One other thing you might try is a taper crimp die, used in a separate step after seating. It IS extra work, but the improvements in feeding and accuracy can be dramatic
The FCD is where I'm having issues.

[justindad]

The FCD is where I'm having issues.

Lee is not the in the top tier of quality manufacturers.

[dearslayer]

Lee is not the in the top tier of quality manufacturers.

I was thinking about switching to RCBS but I'm not sure if they have a powder through die.

[dearslayer]

Does the primer in this fired case look normal or does it look like a sign of too much pressure. I went to the range today with 15 rounds of 4 different charges starting at 4.3gr..4.5...4.7...and 4.9. The attached photo is the case from the 4.9gr of Win231. Not all the case from this charge look the same. Including a photo of the other cases starting with 4.3 on left. 313854313855

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[Charliemac]

That looks like an indication of high pressure, large firing pin hole or a combination of the two. When you set your powder measure do you test the weight multiple times? Sometimes it takes quite a few throws before it settles down.

[dearslayer]

That looks like an indication of high pressure, large firing pin hole or a combination of the two. When you set your powder measure do you test the weight multiple times? Sometimes it takes quite a few throws before it settles down.


I generally do about 10 throws before loading and then check after about every 15-20 rounds.

[Charliemac]

What kind of variation do you see?

[justindad]

Does that happen to primers on factory ammo?

[Charliemac]

Does that happen to primers on factory ammo?

Good question

[dearslayer]

What kind of variation do you see?


Its weird because there are 2 out of the 15 @ 4.3 gr and 3 from the 4.5 gr and 6 from the 4.7gr and 10 from the 4.9 grain that look the same. I don't see any other changes in the brass that would indicate anything abnormal.

[dearslayer]

Does that happen to primers on factory ammo?

I haven't shot factory ammo in some time so I wouldn't know, but I'll check it out next time I shoot the 40.

[justindad]

Based on data from Ranger391xt, I was thinking 5.3 grains would be a good max charge for this bullet. You are in the 4’s, so I suspect factory ammo would like the same. However, this is one reason why we work our loads up. Get a chrono or get some factory ammo to see if your pressures are higher than expected.

[fredj338]

Your FCD is bad. Get a Redding profile crimp die. Until then - does your seater die have a crimp feature?
*
Note: it is best to seat and crimp in two separate operations. You can seat all bullets, and then reset your seating die so that it only crimps in the following operation.

Is there a good LFCD???? Its just not needed imo. It covers up poor reloading technique. Yes it will fix mixed brass loads that wont chamber but that should be telling you something is wrong with that brass.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I Have never seen cases like that with any of my .40 S&W loads ? The only load I have ever used was 5.4 gr of w231 with 165 gr plated bullets. Primarily Winchester Cases which are usually range pickups.

Something is weird there as those cases are showing High Pressure signs from loads that are below Mid Range loads with that powder??? Your copper plated bullets should be .400-.401 if they are bigger that could be the problem. check them!

Your crimp at .421 is just barely taking the flare out of the cases. The OD of the cases with the bullet seated should be .421-22, so if that is what your crimp measures you have no crimp. It needs to be .417-418 so it physically impresses the case mouth into the bullet. Also the crimp is only about .015 long so it is hard to see but it still needs to be there.

You need to take this measurement several times to insure that you are getting a valid reading. This is NOT the easiest measurement to take with calipers. It takes lots of practice to get right. Also the blades of your calipers need to be just slightly off the front of the case mouth (half on, half off) as that will give you the closest measurement to what is actually there.

Just because you can't push the bullet in against you bench doesn't mean it will live thru Banging around in the magazine during firing of previous rounds, being stripped off the magazine, Banging into the Feed Ramp, and bouncing off the sides of the chamber walls as the gun travels into battery. It actually needs the crimp to insure the bullet doesn't get set back into the case which may be the reason you are seeing Pressure Signs in your spent cases?.

Using this information, fire some rounds with a proper crimp and see if the pressure signs are still there.

This is a high pressure pistol round that runs up in the 35,000 psi range and it needs to be respected.

Randy

[44MAG#1]

I use a set of Hornady 10MM/40S&W does and have had no problem loading both calibers with the lighter weight bullets to the 200 grain Hornady XTP in both. Plus a 200 gr cast.
I like the 200 gr bullets and the 180 XTP's too.

[justindad]

Randy has a good point. Deerslayer - have you measured OAL after a round has cycled through the action? Measure the OAL, put the round in the magazine, then hand cycle the round through the action. Repeat three times. I’d suggest a max change in OAL of 0.002”.
*
You could also measure OAL after the round cycles through the action by firing rounds as normal. Fire a round, hand rack the slide to eject the full cartridge, then measure OAL.
*
This may seem unusual for a straight wall cartridge, but I have had this happen in .45 ACP when I loaded soft plated bullets and shot them through a pistol with a heavy recoil spring. My hand cast rounds from 96-2-2 alloy did not have setback issues.

[dearslayer]

I Have never seen cases like that with any of my .40 S&W loads ? The only load I have ever used was 5.4 gr of w231 with 165 gr plated bullets. Primarily Winchester Cases which are usually range pickups.

Something is weird there as those cases are showing High Pressure signs from loads that are below Mid Range loads with that powder??? Your copper plated bullets should be .400-.401 if they are bigger that could be the problem. check them!

Your crimp at .421 is just barely taking the flare out of the cases. The OD of the cases with the bullet seated should be .421-22, so if that is what your crimp measures you have no crimp. It needs to be .417-418 so it physically impresses the case mouth into the bullet. Also the crimp is only about .015 long so it is hard to see but it still needs to be there.

You need to take this measurement several times to insure that you are getting a valid reading. This is NOT the easiest measurement to take with calipers. It takes lots of practice to get right. Also the blades of your calipers need to be just slightly off the front of the case mouth (half on, half off) as that will give you the closest measurement to what is actually there.

Just because you can't push the bullet in against you bench doesn't mean it will live thru Banging around in the magazine during firing of previous rounds, being stripped off the magazine, Banging into the Feed Ramp, and bouncing off the sides of the chamber walls as the gun travels into battery. It actually needs the crimp to insure the bullet doesn't get set back into the case which may be the reason you are seeing Pressure Signs in your spent cases?.

Using this information, fire some rounds with a proper crimp and see if the pressure signs are still there.

This is a high pressure pistol round that runs up in the 35,000 psi range and it needs to be respected.

Randy
Very good info. Thanks so much. I haven't visited this issue since my last post but will surely check things out next time I do 40.

[dearslayer]

Randy has a good point. Deerslayer - have you measured OAL after a round has cycled through the action? Measure the OAL, put the round in the magazine, then hand cycle the round through the action. Repeat three times. I’d suggest a max change in OAL of 0.002”.
*
You could also measure OAL after the round cycles through the action by firing rounds as normal. Fire a round, hand rack the slide to eject the full cartridge, then measure OAL.
*
This may seem unusual for a straight wall cartridge, but I have had this happen in .45 ACP when I loaded soft plated bullets and shot them through a pistol with a heavy recoil spring. My hand cast rounds from 96-2-2 alloy did not have setback issues.

All these points make sense. I'll take the time to do some measurements next time.

[popper]

LE pretty much verified that cycling the SAME service bullet throughthe SA action caused the setback. Probably fired 2k cast in my XD40 without any problems, just proper expanding and taper crimp.