Primers for Black Powder cartridge loading

[MakeMineA10mm]

I’ve been following BP cartridge loading since about the late 1970s when I saw a movie where some kids were given (or inherited?) a Sharps “Big Fifty” which they shot from one hilltop to the next, poking respectable size holes through an old junk car on the far hill. (Anyone know that movie name btw?)

Back then a young guy named Mike Venturino wrote some articles about the Sharps rifles, cartridges, and loading them in the American Rifleman. He later apparently became a gun writer of some repute. :razz: In his later writings he talked about drop tubes, card wads, SPG lube, and using the hottest primer possible (Fed. 215Ms).

Now, some 20-30 years later, I’ve read somewhere (sorry I don’t know who to give credit to), the better choice is to shoot the weakest primer possible, even going so far as to use LPPs with a thin card wad cut from a 3x5 index card in between the primer’s anvil and the flash-hole. The reasons stated are:

1. 1800s primers were weaker than modern day. (I don’t believe this is universally true because there were so many types and compositions of primers, but, maybe true in some cases.)

2. Most importantly, the writer said this technique of weaker primers eliminates the hard ring of BP fouling just ahead of the chamber. He suggests hotter primers eject the bullet from the case before the full load of powder ignites, thus causing some of the powder to ignite just ahead of the chamber against the bullet base, where the initial ignition creates this ridge of hard BP fouling.

Anyone tried this, tested this, heard of this? Thoughts?

[pbcaster45]

Sounds like you are describing Rancho Deluxe (1975) - the two kids were Jeff Bridges and Sam Waterston! Just shows how ancient I am... :guntootsmiley:


I've been meaning to test some blackpowder loads in my Sharps 45-70 using Federal 210s, Federal 215s, CCI-200s and CCI-BR2s but just haven't had time.

[R-71]

I used pistol primers in my sharps and found my firing pin would hang in the firing pin hole and I ended up breaking the Firing pin. I was not using the card wad under the primer and that is probably the reason for the break. I didn’t see much or any difference over the rifle so I quit using the LPs.

I use one large RP for every rifle and that is the #34 military primers.

[HWooldridge]

I've shot a lot of 44-40 and 45-70 using BP and always used standard Winchester rifle primers. Never noticed any sort of ignition problems so I just left well enough alone.

[Lead pot]

Yes I also have read Mikes articles. :D
Used 215 feds as well as pistol and even berden primers reloading the .43 Spanish shells. Yes there is a difference in accuracy using different primers. I even silver soldered the boxer primer pockets flash hole shot and drilled a flash hole like the berdan flash holes and they shot well doing this but not worth the time converting the flash holes.
As far as the bullet getting pushed ahead with the primer making a fouling ring,,,,well I breach seat often and I pushed the bullet ahead of the case mouth as far as 1/8" and never seen any difference with fouling just better accuracy :D
The card wads under the primer in the primer pocket and as well under the powder ov er the flash hole the only good results I seen with my Sharps and Stevens are good flame cuts on the face of these two breach blocks from the back pressure of the primer ignition blowing back past the primer cup.
And I will say that the primers fit tight in the pocket.

And yes I'm also guilty shooting holes through a 36 Plymouth 4 door sedan using my .43 Spanish roller :D :D even busted a hole through the flathead water jacket. :D


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[Larry Gibson]

The Fed 215 Magnum and Winchester LRM primers give best ignition and accuracy if you're using a heavily compressed powder charge. With mild compressed loads standard primers (LR and LP) seem to work as well as any other primer.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Hey, pbCaster, I think that’s exactly right! I remember Jeff Bridges! :drinks:

[MakeMineA10mm]

Yes I also have read Mikes articles. :D
Used 215 feds as well as pistol and even berden primers reloading the .43 Spanish shells. Yes there is a difference in accuracy using different primers. I even silver soldered the boxer primer pockets flash hole shot and drilled a flash hole like the berdan flash holes and they shot well doing this but not worth the time converting the flash holes.
As far as the bullet getting pushed ahead with the primer making a fouling ring,,,,well I breach seat often and I pushed the bullet ahead of the case mouth as far as 1/8" and never seen any difference with fouling just better accuracy :D
The card wads under the primer in the primer pocket and as well under the powder ov er the flash hole the only good results I seen with my Sharps and Stevens are good flame cuts on the face of these two breach blocks from the back pressure of the primer ignition blowing back past the primer cup.
And I will say that the primers fit tight in the pocket.

And yes I'm also guilty shooting holes through a 36 Plymouth 4 door sedan using my .43 Spanish roller :D :D even busted a hole through the flathead water jacket. :D


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Howdy LeadPot. Are you saying the card wads caused the breach face cutting in your photo? :shock:

[Lead pot]

Howdy LeadPot. Are you saying the card wads caused the breach face cutting in your photo? :shock:

No, printer paper did it.

[Don McDowell]

I use mostly RP 9 1/2 and Br2 primers in the blackpowder rifle rounds. I have seen good results with the RP 2 1/2 primers as well.
The supply chain deal we're into now pretty much dictates if you're out of primers use what you can find. Primers do make a difference and much like smokeless reloading developing powder charges with different brands of primers can be a helpful thing.
Roberts talked about the difference in the blackpowder primers and the primers for smokeless powder in his Schuetzen rifle book, and as he explains it there, the blackpowder primers weren't hot enough to give dependable ignition with the then new smokeless powder, and recommended a duplex load of a few grains of black at the bottom of the case and the rest of the charge in sifted smokeless, to get reliable ignition until a person could get ahold of the new primers or shot his existing older primers up.

[BLAHUT]

I tried all the above and more, AL foil over the primer, news paper over the primer, saw no difference, now I use a magnum primer in all my loads, the only difference I found was a federal or cci primer gave me 100 FPS more, just changing the primer in a load, all the other primers were all about the same, FPS wise.

[country gent]

I have gotten some of my best loads with the Rem lr primers also. I believe with the black powder loads brissance of the primers is important.

[Huvius]

This is all very interesting and fortunate as I have more 215s than any other primer!
In my experience, I have treated black powder cartridges in much the same way as I've treated smokeless loads.
Big case (70grs+/- black) get a magnum primer.
Smaller cases (60gr or less) get a standard large rifle primer.
Unfortunately, I've been setting my standard LR primers aside for my medium smokeless cartridge loading as those primers are harder to source these days.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

In my own tests I found that Federal large pistol primers with black powder gave me the most consistant loads in terms of accuracy and ignition. In my 45/120 using 115gns of Swiss No.1 (2F) chronographed loads gave an SD of only 5fps. Similarly in the 38/55 using a full 50gns of Swiss No.2 (3F) SD was only 11fps. I now use them in my biggest case the 577/450 MH.

https://i.imgur.com/wKLuJFGl.jpg

[ian45662]

Love me some federal large pistol match primers for my BPCR


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[Lead pot]

It's hard to argue about primers if you want the most out of a load when you're on line at a match.
I worked with every type LR mag, LR and pistol primers. For just fun range time I use what ever I have but the Fed GM150M LP I save for matches and work loads when I get a new lot of powder getting loads for the match.
Here are just a couple targets and yes they are close range but when I work up a load I want to eliminate sighting errors and wind calls that I get shooting at long ranges. I just cant see as well now in my 80's that I could see in my younger years so I generally use the 200 yards I only have for working up loads.
I have used Fed Mag as well as other mag primers starting back in the 50's loading my $16.00 .43 Spanish sifting out fines out of the blasting powder kegs sitting in the machine shed we used for splitting logs for fire wood and blowing stumps out in the fence rows :D
I never got the accuracy using mag primers that I got just using LR primers but now for match I use the Fed GM150M LP.
Heck the Fed blue box NO.150 LP shoot well.

The first target is marked fed 210 but it should be 150 GM Old age Brain Fa.. did it.
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[Don McDowell]

If you look thru the equipment list from various target rifle matches it really becomes apparent that large pistol primers are used by a large number of the top competitors and match winners

[MakeMineA10mm]

Wow! Thanks guys! Sounds like it all works, but when it comes to accuracy the pistol primers have the edge.

So, Lead Pot: Is your recommendation to use pistol primers with no paper in between the primer and the powder?

Everyone who is using Pistol primers: do you have any issues with the firing pin punching through the thinner cup, or other issues like the firing pin sticking as described above?

[Lead pot]

Wow! Thanks guys! Sounds like it all works, but when it comes to accuracy the pistol primers have the edge.

So, Lead Pot: Is your recommendation to use pistol primers with no paper in between the primer and the powder?

Everyone who is using Pistol primers: do you have any issues with the firing pin punching through the thinner cup, or other issues like the firing pin sticking as described above?

My recommendation is use quality powder and what ever works for you that you're satisfied with. I just don't use pistol primers I also use large rifle primers.
It just takes some load development to find the best combination that your satisfied with.
I can tell you what my loads are but this don't mean that it will work for you.

[ian45662]

I go through somewhere between 2 and 3000 large pistol primers a year and have not had a single one rupture. Having said that I have not used any in my trapdoor. It gets the standard federal large rifle or large rifle match. That is the only one I worry about having pierced primers with.


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[Lead pot]

I have pierced a primer in the 43 Spanish Roller and both of my Trapdoors hit very deep into the primers but no problem piercing the cups.
Those gas cuts on the two breach blocks did not have the primers pierced. The Shiloh I pull the breach block when I do the final cleaning and when I saw the gas cuts I checked the primer pockets and they were undamaged. The CPA I don't pull the breach block often and it got a lot more damage before I caught it. I pulled the block after seeing the Sharps block.
The Sharps is the .44-90 BN and the CPA is a .40-65.

[Don McDowell]

I haven't had a pierced pistol primer. I use mostly large rifle primers, but do have a few loads in a couple of rifles that also work well with pistol primers. I do have 3 original rifles, their firing pins are quite a bit larger than the modern guns and they mash the crap out of even rifle primers, but haven't pierced one yet.
Again it comes down to what you have or can find, build a load with it, and go.

[GregLaROCHE]

Now that we are on a similar subject, does anyone drill a larger hole in the case to supposedly get the BP to ignite faster? I’ve heard of people doing it. That would be the opposite of what the original post was suggesting.

[ian45662]

Now that we are on a similar subject, does anyone drill a larger hole in the case to supposedly get the BP to ignite faster? I’ve heard of people doing it. That would be the opposite of what the original post was suggesting.

No. Not anyone who I know that shoots matches anyways.


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[JKR]

Around here it seems like there are small primers available at most places that sell components. This got me thinking. I took some spent large rifle primers and popped the anvil out. I used a punch and flattened the firing pin dent on my bench block. You can see where I’m going with this, right? I then dropped a small rifle primer into the large rifle cup and primed some of my BP 38-55 & 45-70 cases. Using my regular proven loads, they actually shot well at 100 yards. I started to think I was on to something.
All of this happened during the depth of winter. This spring I tried some of these loads at 600 yards with the 45-70. It didn’t hold elevation worth a hoot.
While not a target load it is a get by load if you can’t get anything better.
JKR

[indian joe]

Many moons ago I read the Venturino / Garbe stuff and got some federal 215's for my 45/70 - wasnt shooting good enough to tell the difference and I didnt have a chronograph
but I started to think some - part of my brain said "hang on a minute - blackpowder is really really easy to ignite, why do we need a magnum primer to light it up?", so I switched back to standard primers for sake of simplicity - had always used winchesters but somewhere late last century they put out a batch of brass coloured ones and we had several embarrassing fail to fire incidents. Have only used federal LR since - I like the federal - my Uberti 76 had a monster trigger pull and the federals have allowed me to sort that just by relieving the mainspring pressure. If I assemble loads carefully I can get a ten shot string to go single digit Extreme Spread with only the blow tube for fouling control - have done that with the 76, a spaghetti sharps and 86 clone.

[barnetmill]

I will add some hearsay information. A few years ago I was talking to someone that was really into black powder shooting and his claim was the issue relative to ignition was due to the change in chemistry of the priming mixtures over the years.
Original black powder primers were based on mercury fulminate priming mixtures. Then the military changed the priming mixtures when smokeless powders came about; for many years they used various formulations that had potassium chlorate in it. Now most non-corrosive formulations: Priming compound is a mechanical mixture of lead styphnate, antimony sulfide, barium nitrate, and other chemicals.
I certainly do not advise anyone to make mercury fulminate. But there are some priming mixtures that I think are two part mixtures that are available commercially for 'reloading' primers. Perhaps using smaller grain black powder at the base of the case with the rest of charge being the grain size that you normally would use might work better.

[Chill Wills]

Perhaps using smaller grain black powder at the base of the case with the rest of charge being the grain size that you normally would use might work better.

Careful testing has shown, duplex loads using 4f (in any amount) at the primer end showed no improvement in accuracy.
Mild primers, for whatever reason, have been the bases of some very accurate and match winning BPCR loads.

[Funky]

Thank You JKR, for the idea of using small primers use in large primers, I will try to keep that in mind if I ever get in a bind. So simple why didn't I think of it [smilie=b: I really like reading Mike's articles, he seems to come up with new information, not just repeating what was said fifty years ago. Good Luck Chris

[Gobeyond]

How does a primer blow the out bulle twhen it’s got a full load of compressed dropped powder in front of it. How does a weak primer blow a hole in a card wad and ignite the powder w/o a hang fire; plus an under powder card?? Beyond me, gobeyond! I guess I’d be in the mag primer camp. But LPP have always worked fine for me.

[freakonaleash]

Golly, I'm using winchester large pistol primers in my uberti '76 winchester in 40 60. No problemo.

[Thundermaker]

How does a primer blow the out bulle twhen it’s got a full load of compressed dropped powder in front of it. How does a weak primer blow a hole in a card wad and ignite the powder w/o a hang fire; plus an under powder card?? Beyond me, gobeyond! I guess I’d be in the mag primer camp. But LPP have always worked fine for me.

So a member here did extensive testing on that. He determined that the under powder wads weren't getting pierced. Instead, the flame was rolling around the edges and igniting the outside of the charge, but it was being pushed forward beforehand and compressing the powder. His best accuracy (and lowest SD) came from pieces of tea bag used as an under powder wad. He theorized that this was due to diffusion of the flame igniting more surface area of the powder. I have some experiments planned to test that further. Some high power shooters swear by berdan primed brass or magnum primers for the same reason.