Help, Cylinder leading

[David R]

I have a S&W K38. I have had trouble with it leading for 2 years. When the barrel is clean, I can get one hole groups at 50'. I have done everything incluidng fire lapping the barrel. I slugged it and its .357. Boolits are sized .358 in a Star.

The last run around, I sent the gun to the factory to have a turn taken on the barrel and re cut the forcing cone. They also replaced some parts to re time it.

I asked them to check the cylinder holes, and they don't do that, so I did it.

I took one of MY sized and lubed boolits. I honed each cylinder until I could just push a sized boolit through using a mandril and some 320 grit paper chucked in a drill. Cylinder was out of the gun and clamped in a vice (proctected of course)

The first thing I noticed was I took a LOT of lead out of the cylinder before I got to the steel. Each one took quite a few pieces of sandpaper. The whole job took a couple of hours. SO Away I went shooting again. Still leads.... It starts at the forcing cone Not nearly as bad as it used to be, but still.....

Last time I took the gun out, I shot one box of "J" boolits and cleaned the barrel well using the copper scrubbie and some JB bore cleaner. Next trip out was some HBWC and some group buy 358429. Lube is 50% carnuba red, 50% standard alox lube. When cleaning this time, I looked in the cylinder and it was leaded pretty good. I finally got it out yesterday and will go back to shoot it some more today.

ALL I have are 358156 with gas checks ahead of 5 grains of unique. I will be loading some Saco #50 wadcutters and 358466. (446?)

Never seen a cylinder lead, my other revolver a model 25 just shoots all day with out leading anywhere.

Any advice?

David :)

[atr]

Hi David,,,
I was using the same mold and load in my S&W and I was getting a touch of leading also...
I think in my case the cast boolits were on the soft side,,,,

you might try boolits on the hard side.
atr

[David R]

I have tried soft and hard boolits, I have tried lubing all 3 grooves of the #50. With all that I got was lead AND a bunch of lube all over my gun.

The group buy 358429 was way too big and I had to force the boolits through my sizer, so I sold that mold. I have many others that cast boolits the right size.

David :)

[Larry Gibson]

Eliminate on thing at a time.

Change the lube to Javelina and try. Don't short cut, go straight to real Javelina. If the leading stops then your lube concoction is the problem.

If the leading wasn't stopped with Javelina lube then switch to Bullseye powder with the Javelina lubed bullets. Use 2.7 gr under the WCs and 3.5 gr under the SWCs.

If that solves the problem try a Javelina lubed 358156 over 5.5 gr Unique.

If all leading is gone throw away the lube concoction and stick with Javelina or use one of Lars 50/50 beeswax/alox lubes.

I used to run police firearms training/qualification for a tricounty region. I've seen many .38 revolvers lead up from various commercial cast bullets and lube concoctions. Never seen one lead up with the above loads and or Javelina lubed bullets.

Larry Gibson

[cbrick]

Another possiblity, if the chamber (not the throat, the area where the brass chambers) is on the large side and your shooting a bullet that when chambered the front driving band doesn't reach the throat the entire cartridge will lay at an angle in the chamber. When fired the front driving band has to "find" the throat because laying at an angle it's not aligned with the throat and it strikes the edge of the throat shaving lead until it's forced up and into the throat. Result . . . A leaded cylinder and the more shooting the more leading. Enough shooting like this and the leading will carry on into the forcing cone and then the beginning of the rifling.

Try a boolit that's long enough that when chambered the front driving band is already inside the throat and of coarse properly fits the throat.

The only boolits that have ever caused any cylinder leading whatsoever in my FA 357 are SAECO #'s 396 and 399. These are two diameter boolits, the front driving band is about .005" smaller than boolit diameter and there is no way possible to size these boolits to fit the throats. Even in the FA's tight chambers the loaded rounds will lay at an angle unless the front driving band is sized to fit AND inside the throat when the loaded round is chambered. This isn't a knock against these SAECO boolits, they work very well in the Marlin or single shot firearms but they are not a revolver boolit.

http://www.lasc.us/Left396Right399.JPG http://www.lasc.us/SAECO399RCBS180gr-11.JPG

The first picture is #396 (left) and #399 (right), both of these boolits are sized .357", notice the front driving band wasn't touched by the sizer die. The middle and the base bands fit my FA throats perfectly but the driving band sure doesn't. The front driving band is inside the throat but too small to fit and it allows the cartridge to lay at an angle, when fired the "middle" driving band strikes the edge of the throat, shaves lead and leads the cylinder. The picture on the right is 396 (left) and RCBS 180 Gr Silhouette, both sized .357". The RCBS boolit is a mild snug fit inside the throats when chambered.

Hope this helps or at least gives you something else to look at.

Rick

[MT Gianni]

Are you sizing your bullets to .358 or is that what the die is labeled?

[David R]

Boolits are .358. Measured them. They also fit the throat or stepped down part of the cylinder perfectly. The 358156 is crimped on the second band so the boolit is longer. I have tried 50/50 lube and pure Lars RED lube all with the same luck. More lube, less lube.......

Today I shot a box of 50 remington HBWC ahead of 3.0 WW 231. I could see no lead, but I have not cleaned the gun yet. Just got home from the range :). I shot some nice little groups.

I think the lead has been in the cylinder all along because I never looked there.

The barrel is smooth as can be. It HAD a restriction, but that went away when I fire lapped it. I also shot 1,000 J bullets through it at one time to help smooth it out.

Most of my boolits even the #50 sits in the throat a little.

Thanks for the replies, keep em coming and I will report back what I am finding. Never saw this one before and I have been shooting a long time. I looked in the cylinder of my model 25, no lead there.

I have no javlina right now, but might have to find it. This gun should not lead with most any load.

David

[David R]

Cbrick, ya might be onto it. Today I shot 50 HBWC crimped in the case. I saw lead shavings and lead in the cylinder. Just a little in the throat. Gun was clean before I started. I had a a few keyholes.

Next is a clean gun and only gas checked 358156 with 5.0 unique and see if it does it again.

I'll be loading more soon. The lube I use works great in the rest of my guns including rifles.

David :)

[Three44s]

Two lines of thinking:

Are you belling enough ...... I have on occasion had a slug shave just a tad and that leads for sure.

And second ....... just what size are your throats sized to ?

If you have any number of slugs already lubed with your current system ....... I would try Lee Liquid Alox on those .... "dribble lube" them over the top with LLA over your existing lube and see it that trumps or reduces your leading.

As to lead removal ....... I would use the copper scrubbies on a short cleaning rod and go around and around till you know that the lead is out of the cylinder ......

I used USP bore paste, copper scrubbies ........ and at times lead away cloth cut into squares ......

And then followed up with either Tetra gun cleaner or CorrosionX for a coating treatment.

Without fire lapping ........ I found that there was enough polishing action with USP (JB is good also) and that particularily the CorrosionX .... enough coating action that after a few cleaning regimes ....... leading just stopped on guns that had half way good dimensions.

Three 44s

[David R]

Yesterday I shot a box of 358156 with gas checks. 5.0 unique. They were crimped on the lower groove so they stuck out of the case quite a bit. I still got leading. A little in the cylinders and some in the barrel.

It Does shoot Lee TL 150 swc pretty good. I started to pour some of those a few days ago. Today I am trying a few more loads, both slow and fast. Maybe I will try some softer alloy.

If this doesn't work, Its "S&W K38 for SALE"

David :)

[runfiverun]

have you tried just partial sizing the cases?
i am thinking the case is sitting in the chambers [bottom] not fully supported.
i had a problem with this in my 625 for a while, then i went to 453 sized boolits and only partly sized my cases it helped a ton..
i have to push each round in with some thumb pressure but the results are worth it

[David R]

Today I loaded some Saco #50 wadcutters. The first box I loaded at the standard crimp groove, then next I crimped on the first lube groove, and the last box of 50 I crimped on the middle lube groove. The ones in the regular crimp groove I could wiggle the boolit in the cylinder. The longest ones would not quite go in on their own weight. I went to the range and fired 50. Almost no leading in the cylinders and the barrel, so I found the problem and THANK YOU for the help.

I shot some groups with nothing to brag about, but maybe a few more.

cbrick, you hit the nail on the head!

David :)

[leftiye]

Cbrick, Thanks for your info. I've been working on a boolit design just about like the Saecos that you are using. As I was wondering if there was an advantage to a throat or bore riding segment on the nose of the boolit, your post gives very relevant information on that issue.

David R, I like R5R's idea of neck sizing your cases to get the boolit in the center of the chamber. Boolit engaging or inside the chamber (throat) mouth is a good idea to complete this scenario. Have you checked the approach to your chamber mouths for finish. Polishing these should help.

[David R]

I am going to try some 357 brass trimmed down to 38 size. This will have thicker brass where the boolit sits and MAYBE will take up the slack. I don't know if it will help with the leading or not, but still gonna try it.

Also going to try softer lead instead of WW + 2% tin (give or take).

Loading up a few more to try again tomorrow for accuracy.

David one happy camper R.

[leftiye]

The jump from the shorter brass won't help any. I feel more and more as I read this thread that you must have quite large chambers or a rough approach to the chamber mouths. One recent thought, is there any chance that your brass is sizing down your boolits, and causing blowby? This is a real thing that does happen. Gets worse with soft lead.

[cbrick]

David, if you shorten the brass be sure to reduce the charge cause it ain't no 357 no more.

I go the other way, 360 DW brass for 357, 414 Super mag brass for 41 mag etc. I shorten the longer brass to just fit the chamber of my revolver right to the beginning of the throat, this way 100% of the front driving band is inside the throat when the round is chambered. I also "neck size" fired brass, size only the amount that the bullet is in the case. This gives it a very slight shoulder and with a proper fitting bullet in the throat this is as straight a line through the throat and with the center line of the bore that your revolver's dimensions can have.

Rick

[David R]

Last night I CLEANED the cylinders. All shiny and smooth as can be. The "throat" of each one is rounded and smoooooth. I did some more experimenting and I think what I need is a new gun. I have had this 38 for 2 years and been messin with it and the loads. No matter what I did it still would lead. I have shot some awesome one hole groups with it when its not leaded, but I am tired of scraping the crap out of it. This is the only one I have that will foul the barrel. Model 25 in 45 colt will NEVER lead the barrel. 45auto.... I only have to clean the gun when it won't function and I don't have to clean the barrel. I can shoot my 22-250 up to 2700 fps with out leading.....

I loaded up 50 more rounds with the wadcutters crimped in the middle lube groove. The cylinder is spotless. I am going to shoot those and see what happens. I may not have time today, but will soon. IF it works with 3.0 bullseye, I am going to try 4.0 bullseye and see what happens.

I don't know if the 357 brass will help. The chambers are kinda large. I wanted this gun for target shooting. That is why I bought a 38, not a 357. It it refuses to do what I want, down the road it goes.

Loading the boolits long is a patch not a repair. I could buy a cylinder and have it fit, but i have too much money and waay too much time in this thing already.

David :)

[runfiverun]

you need to fireform your revolver brass...
and get what you can out of the revolver..
measure the inside of one of your fired cases and get your boolit as close to that size as possible.
you might not need to crimp your case mouths either.

[David R]

OK, I GOT IT!

I used the saco mold, the boolits drop from the mold .364. Lubed with Lee liquid ear wax and loaded at the crimp with 3.5 grains of Bullseye, they shot nice little groups with NO leading. The cartridges had to be pushed into the cylinder and came out pretty hard, but NO leading in the cylinder or the barrel at all! Groups were not one hole at 50' but 3 in one hole and a 2 hole group right next to it. Fit, fit and fit.

I am going to order a .363 sizer die for my Star and go from there.

I WON!

David

[pjh421]

Looks like I got here tooooo late. My M15 does the exact same thing. Unsized boolits and JPW does the trick. Glad you solved the problem without selling your gun.

Paul

[Char-Gar]

I am a late to this thread, but it has been a very good one.

I had similar problems with a K-38 of mine. About the only thing I can add is to go easy on the crimp with light target loads in the 38 Special. You don't need a heavy crimp to get good ignition with fast powders like BE, 231 and the like. Just use the crimp die to take out just enough case mouth bell for the cases to seat in the charge holes. The larger case mouths will help center the rounds in the charge hole. I just a taper crimp die with just a touch of contact.

A HBWC is a special needs child, as it is longer for it's weight than solid base WC. If you use standard 38 Special cases instead of match cases, the base of the bullet can get compressed by the internal taper of the case. Ofen the standard expanding plug does not expand the case far enough down to allow the HBWC not to have it's base crushed. This can play hob with accuracy and also give some leading problems.

Match cases don't have the internal taper in the case and are designed for factory swaged HBWC bullets. You can also buy a special long expanding plug from RCBS that will expand the cases far enough down not to crush the base of the HBWC. In addition to being extra long, this plug measurers .3585 in diamter.

On a standard cast solid base WC, just lube the bottom groove. That is plenty.

The match cases work better than standard for HBWCs and as good as any for standard pressure cast bullet loads. BUT...being thinner toward the base, I would avoid +P loads like the plague.

Bottom line is the 38 Special and the fixguns for it are wonderful, useful and fun firearms for 95% ofwhat we ask a handgun todo. It has been around along time and most of the quirks are understood. In the old days when Bullseye target shooting was all the range, these quirks were well understood and well published. But, today not as many people know the ins and outs of the round.

The old saw about using a heavy crimp that comes from big bore sixgun shooting is not a universal truth and does not apply to most 38 Special loads in general and the target wadcutter loads in general.

[David R]

Thank you Charger. I have resolved the problem in 2 ways. 1st was the bigger boolit with Lee mule snot unsized. Second was the same thing using lee TL150 again with LMS. The SWC shoots more accurate, but he TL boolit is out of a 6 banger and just a fun plinker.

I DID buy anther gun because I had given up on the smith and WAS going to sell it. The new gun is a security six with an aftermarket slab sided barrel. It shoots awesome. Today I tried the lee TL 150 in it, couldn't even get the cartridge in the cylinder.

Originally I bought a 38 because I didn't want a 357. I already got a 44 mag, so power wasn't it, I just wanted a nice smoooth dependable plinker.

Now with the right loads both guns shoot well. Looks like I got my cake and can eat it too. Howz that for a change?

I will try the little or no crimp thing. I also have a dozen 357 cases turned down to 38 length to see if the boolit (home cast WC) will expand the case to fill the cylinder.

All this time I have been looking at the barrel for the leading problem. Its much smoother than the custom barrel on the ruger security six which does not lead. If it does, it still shoots well.

David R Skipping and smiling :)

Thanks to everyone for the help.

[David R]

Just a note. I did trim some 357 brass down to 38 sp length. I loaded 12 rounds and measured the outside of the case. Its the same as a loaded 38 sp case, so no gain there. I think the boolit got smooshed when pushing it into the case.

Next I am going to try some tape around the case to hold it in the center of the hole. I am sure the problem is way too big of holes. I can wiggle the case when putting them in the gun.

A new cylinder is the cure, but I don't know. Gun parts has one for $126.00, then it would have to be fit to the gun. Right now I am having a blast with the security six shooting less than 1" groups at 25 yards time after time. The smith K38 is sitting in the safe (getting a time out :) )

I can say the smith has a better action, lighter trigger and all around smoother feel.

Thanks to every one for the help.

David

[Throwback]

I think the problem all along has been the Unique. It won't always cause problems. It works very well most of the time. But, it seems to be a real rascal in certain circumstances when the right variables are in place.

[DGV]

Try a wax gas check over the powder. I bought some from a outfit called CF ventures. I dont know if they are in business, butthey sold wax sheets about .100 inch thick. You put them over the powder in cookie cutter fashion and seat the bullet as you would normally. It is a extra step, but it has eliminated leading in a pesky ruger security six I have.

[David R]

I bought the new cylinder from GPC. Its here but needs to be fit to the gun. I need to find a local gunsmith to do it. My fingers are far too fat to be messing with that kind of stuff.

Does anybody know of a gunsmith in western NY that could fit the cylinder? I would rather not pay UPS RED again to ship it anywhere.

David

[August]

I cannot begin to tell you what wonders putting an 11 degree taper on the forcing cone does for all aspects of revolver operation, accuracy, and cleaning.