Favorite Loads for Lee 452-200-SWC & 45ACP

[jdgabbard]

Just purchased one of these in the S&S section. I've previously used the 452-228-1R and NOE 452-230-HP with good results using 4.5gr Red Dot and 5.5gr Unique. But does anyone have any favorite loads for the 452-200-SWC? I hear it is just different enough from the H&G #68 that it needs the loads changed up a little. What are you loads, OALs and general advice to using the Lee version?

FYI, this will be run in 3x 1911s. One a safe queen with all the bells/whistles. One a RIA Officers Model. And the last a Auto Ordinance A1 clone - I hear this one might not like it due to the throat in the barrel.

[Dusty Bannister]

My shooting is more casual and have found that there is no difference in powder charge for the Lee 452-200-SWC and the 452-200-RF. I would think that there is enough variation in the nose form during normal production of the Lee SWC that it would just need to pass the plunk test and not get too concerned. Are you concerned about accuracy or reliable feeding. Given the possible nose length difference, the weights are going to be the same across the board unless you consider plain base and bevel base.

Because of the random changes of the actual bullet and considering I shoot my loads in a 1911 (not A1), my data is not likely to work with your firearms.

[tazman]

My intended use is for target shooting and practice. I have used this in several 1911 pistols as well as Springfield Armory XDm pistols with complete success.
I use 4.0 of Bullseye or 4.0 of Titegroup. This gives me about 800fps depending on the individual pistol.

[jdgabbard]

My shooting is more casual and have found that there is no difference in powder charge for the Lee 452-200-SWC and the 452-200-RF. I would think that there is enough variation in the nose form during normal production of the Lee SWC that it would just need to pass the plunk test and not get too concerned. Are you concerned about accuracy or reliable feeding. Given the possible nose length difference, the weights are going to be the same across the board unless you consider plain base and bevel base.

Because of the random changes of the actual bullet and considering I shoot my loads in a 1911 (not A1), my data is not likely to work with your firearms.

I mean, ideally I could get reliable feeding and accuracy. But I also realize that the 1911 can be a finicky platform under certain circumstances. I've never had an issue with the 452-228-1R. But I've heard mixed result on SWCs, and even mixed results between the various versions of the same design.

What I've gathered thus far, is that I may need to seat these to that the front driving band is almost flush with the case mouth, and using a slight taper crimp. But that may be too short to function properly in some firearms, so you might have to see a little longer, but then run into issues with the throats....




My intended use is for target shooting and practice. I have used this in several 1911 pistols as well as Springfield Armory XDm pistols with complete success.
I use 4.0 of Bullseye or 4.0 of Titegroup. This gives me about 800fps depending on the individual pistol.

Tazman, What OAL are you using? I've got plenty of Bullseye, Unique, Red Dot and the likes. Heck I've heard that even stuff like 4227 can be used to get some pretty fast velocities, although without complete powder burn.

[Misery-Whip]

7.0 of 800x. In the 200rf or the swc. Pain to meter but I try to keep a box around for bragging rights. Just warm enough to reliably function.

[jdgabbard]

EDIT: Misery-Whip has confirmed that this data is incorrect and well above pressure. Scroll up for the correct data.


8.0 of 800x. In the 200rf or the swc. Pain to meter but I try to keep a box around for bragging rights.

Wow, that sounds like a stiff load. What type of velocity are you getting out of that?

[jdgabbard]

Btw, I did see that Ramshot's older Enforcer data for the 45ACP is reportedly still valid, just not recommended due to efficiency. Reports you can get 1100FPS at Non +P pressures out of a 5" barrel with 230gr pills. That's impressive....

[AlaskaMike]

I typically use 4.0 grains of Clays with either the H&G 68 style, or a Lee group buy design we did hear many years ago, which is a 210 grain SWC.

The OAL I use with the H&G 68 is 1.23" but I've gone as long as 1.26" with no issues in two different 1911s and a Sig P220. With the 210 grain group buy bullet I have to go much shorter, 1.19" because of the short flat nose style.

[Bazoo]

Here is a pic that might be of help to you.
This shows the MP copy of the H&G 68 and the Lee 452-200-SWC copy. Other than the lee being a bevel base, they are nearly identical.

https://i.postimg.cc/SR0Vkhjv/3-B52-C5-FB-F24-C-4-A8-B-916-F-3351-FBCEC063.jpg (https://postimg.cc/34B2FzXX)

[Mk42gunner]

I have almost always used W231 with the various ~200 grain SWC that were sold by commercial casters (most some variation of the H&G 68). When I started casting, I bought a Lyman 452460 and haven't used the H&G design since.

My advice is to load a few dummies and see if they will hand cycle in your guns. The big advantage of the 68 design is that it is supposed to feed very much like ball ammo in a .45 ACP due to the edges of the meplat hitting the feed ramp like a ball round.

OAL? I don't know off the top of my head, but the old time advice was to seat the projectile with "about a dimes width of the shoulder exposed." It usually worked.

Robert

[bruce381]

I typically use 4.0 grains of Clays with either the H&G 68 style, or a Lee group buy design we did hear many years ago, which is a 210 grain SWC.

The OAL I use with the H&G 68 is 1.23" but I've gone as long as 1.26" with no issues in two different 1911s and a Sig P220. With the 210 grain group buy bullet I have to go much shorter, 1.19" because of the short flat nose style.

Yeah i load the Lee to 1.245 Crimp .469-.470 W231 about 5 or so Clays 4.0

[Bazoo]

My experience is with the RCBS 45-201-SWC. It fed flawlessly in my Springfield milspec.

[gwpercle]

Okay ... I can help you with Target Loads and the 200 gr. SWC in 45 acp.
I shot NRA Bullsyey Match Pistol in an indoor shooting league for about twenty years .
We fired 22 , 38 and 45 ...and 45 was my favorite leg and what I enjoyed most .
These loads were worked up first with the Lyman #452460 (200 gr. SWC) and then with the similar Lee #452-200-SWC .
I don't have any OAL's ... we were taught to leave a "thumbnail's thickness " of top driving band protruding from the case mouth . Too much and the boolit would not plunk .
Not very scientific but it works and we made a dummy to set dies with for repeat setting !
How crude were our methods .

45 ACP 200 gr. cast lead SWC - Pet Target Loads :

4.5 grs. W231/HP38 @ 808 fps.

4.5 grs. Bullseye @ 830 fps

4.7 grs AA no.2 @ 832 fps

4.0 grs. TiteGroup @ 860 fps

4.2 grs Red Dot @ 794 fps

4.0 grs. 700X @ 824 fps

5.0 grs. Unique @ 726 fps

5.3 grs. Unique @ 760 fps ... I won a first place trophy in a 45 G.I. 1911 Match with this load.

These are my best shooting 45 acp loads ... hope they can be of some help .
Gary

[gwpercle]

I have almost always used W231 with the various ~200 grain SWC that were sold by commercial casters (most some variation of the H&G 68). When I started casting, I bought a Lyman 452460 and haven't used the H&G design since.

My advice is to load a few dummies and see if they will hand cycle in your guns. The big advantage of the 68 design is that it is supposed to feed very much like ball ammo in a .45 ACP due to the edges of the meplat hitting the feed ramp like a ball round.

OAL? I don't know off the top of my head, but the old time advice was to seat the projectile with "about a dimes width of the shoulder exposed." It usually worked.

Robert

" about a dimes width of the shoulder exposed " ... This sounds about like the instructions I recieved ...

"leave about a thumbnails thickness of driving band exposed !" ... I know why it was put this way ... 1967 and I have a 12" ruler , a yardstick and my dad's 6 foot zig-zag carpenters rule to measure stuff with ... ain't no way I was measuring anything to 3 decimal points ...
1/32 inch was the best I could do at that time !
Gary

[txbirdman]

My experience is with the RCBS 45-201-SWC. It fed flawlessly in my Springfield milspec.
That’s my favorite bullet for the 45 acp. Usually loaded with 5 gr of WST.

[tazman]

I mean, ideally I could get reliable feeding and accuracy. But I also realize that the 1911 can be a finicky platform under certain circumstances. I've never had an issue with the 452-228-1R. But I've heard mixed result on SWCs, and even mixed results between the various versions of the same design.

What I've gathered thus far, is that I may need to seat these to that the front driving band is almost flush with the case mouth, and using a slight taper crimp. But that may be too short to function properly in some firearms, so you might have to see a little longer, but then run into issues with the throats....





Tazman, What OAL are you using? I've got plenty of Bullseye, Unique, Red Dot and the likes. Heck I've heard that even stuff like 4227 can be used to get some pretty fast velocities, although without complete powder burn.

I've never actually measured them. I seat the boolit to where there is a fingernail thickness of the front driving band showing in front of the case.
If you are having issues with depth, there is a member on this site that does fine work throating barrels for a very reasonable price. I have used his services a couple of time with 1911 barrels. His handle is DougGuy.

[charlie b]

That was my first pistol mold, 40 odd years ago. I'd just pick a load for 185 or 200 SWC and shoot it. Back in those days the powder I used was whatever the LGS had on the shelf when I needed some. Put in an almost max book load and shot it. OAL was as described above, just enough lead showing to 'look' right :) I lost count of how many thousand rounds I cast and shot. And it was all pan lubed, no sizing :)

Sent from my SM-P613 using Tapatalk

[whisler]

I was once gifted boolits cast from 3 different versions of the 200 gr. SWC, i.e. Lee, Lyman and IIRC, Saeco. I loaded all 3 to 1.25 OAL (which shows about that thumb-nail thickness of top band showing) and they all fed and shot pretty much the same, within the limits of my ability.

[Mk42gunner]

" about a dimes width of the shoulder exposed " ... This sounds about like the instructions I recieved ...

"leave about a thumbnails thickness of driving band exposed !" ... I know why it was put this way ... 1967 and I have a 12" ruler , a yardstick and my dad's 6 foot zig-zag carpenters rule to measure stuff with ... ain't no way I was measuring anything to 3 decimal points ...
1/32 inch was the best I could do at that time !
Gary
Yes Sir. I reloaded ammo for a few decades before ever buying a dial caliper. Not to mention an actual micrometer.

A dime may have been an effort to standardize the measurement, measure ten peoples thumbnails and you will probably get at least fifteen different measurements.

Depending on just how often said thumb has been smashed by a hammer. Waffle patterns from framing hammers could cause extra variation.

Robert

[Larry Gibson]

Been using that bullet over 5 gr of Bullseye for numerous years. Same load with the H&G 58 and commercial copies. Fed 100% in every 45 ACP M1911 including numerous military ones we still had in the arms room.

[BC17A]

I have several "best" loads with the Lee 200SWC for the 5" 1911. OAL has to be right at 1.240" to feed reliably.

Fast Powder Loads
4.5gn Bullseye @833FPS
3.6gn Clays @720FPS

Medium Burn Powder Loads
5.6gn HP-38 @904FPS (My most accurate tack-driver load)
8.4gn AA#5 @973FPS
7.9gn CFE Pistol @1092FPS

[megasupermagnum]

I hope this helps. I don't use the Lee bullet anymore, but I have not changed the load I use.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?394174-45-ACP-lube-and-bullet-test&highlight=45+acp+accuracy+test

[Kosh75287]

I'm embarrassed to say that I can't remember the o.a.l. on ANY of my 200 gr. SWC loads. The one thing I DO try to be unfailingly consistent about is seating the bullet with its driving band/shoulder ~1/32" above the case mouth. I also taper crimp in a separate step.
Mild loads are:
4.0/Bullseye/200 gr. SWC
4.2/IMR-700X/200 gr. SWC
5.8/Unique/200 gr. SWC

More emphatic loads are:
5.0/Bullseye/200 gr. SWC
4.6/IMR-700X/200 gr. SWC
7.2/Unique/200 gr. SWC
As always, work up to these gradually. The Unique load will break 1000 f/s in 5" 1911A1.

[Misery-Whip]

Wow, that sounds like a stiff load. What type of velocity are you getting out of that?

Thank you jdgabbard for calling my error. I posted on my phone and fat fingered the wrong number. 7.0 is what I use for 800x in 200gr 45acp. Just enough to reliably cycle the action, and the empties are at my feet.

All members and guests: just a friendly reminder to double check all load data against published data. Normally I take pictures directly from the manuals to post, and will return to the habbit. I appologize to all for my error.

***I did edit my original post, but not sure if jdgabbards quote will correct or not.

[T-Bird]

I use 4.0 gr Clays and the "little bit of driving band above the case mouth" oal. With my Kimber (which I no longer have) I had to use a .469ish crimp to get proper feeding. My Ruger has digested the same combo with no complaints. Velocity is 825-850 fps. ( IIRC)

[Harter66]

5.5 Unique for every bullet I use in 45 ACP/AR/GAP and most of the S&W loads from 196-265 gr . Of course the 265 gr 452-255 is seated long out to the first lube groove because OAL isn't a big deal where an ACP cylinder would accommodate 45 Colts length .

[jdgabbard]

Okay ... I can help you with Target Loads and the 200 gr. SWC in 45 acp.
I shot NRA Bullsyey Match Pistol in an indoor shooting league for about twenty years .
We fired 22 , 38 and 45 ...and 45 was my favorite leg and what I enjoyed most .
These loads were worked up first with the Lyman #452460 (200 gr. SWC) and then with the similar Lee #452-200-SWC .
I don't have any OAL's ... we were taught to leave a "thumbnail's thickness " of top driving band protruding from the case mouth . Too much and the boolit would not plunk .
Not very scientific but it works and we made a dummy to set dies with for repeat setting !
How crude were our methods .

45 ACP 200 gr. cast lead SWC - Pet Target Loads :

4.5 grs. W231/HP38 @ 808 fps.

4.5 grs. Bullseye @ 830 fps

4.7 grs AA no.2 @ 832 fps

4.0 grs. TiteGroup @ 860 fps

4.2 grs Red Dot @ 794 fps

4.0 grs. 700X @ 824 fps

5.0 grs. Unique @ 726 fps

5.3 grs. Unique @ 760 fps ... I won a first place trophy in a 45 G.I. 1911 Match with this load.

These are my best shooting 45 acp loads ... hope they can be of some help .
Gary

Thanks a bunch! That is good info! I'm intending to try a few out with 5.0-5.5gr Unique to see how they do. I've previously used I think 4.5gr-ish of Red Dot under the NOE 230gr HP, and it was a very accurate load. But I've got a lot of unique to burn, so I'd like to do that.


I have several "best" loads with the Lee 200SWC for the 5" 1911. OAL has to be right at 1.240" to feed reliably.

Fast Powder Loads
4.5gn Bullseye @833FPS
3.6gn Clays @720FPS

Medium Burn Powder Loads
5.6gn HP-38 @904FPS (My most accurate tack-driver load)
8.4gn AA#5 @973FPS
7.9gn CFE Pistol @1092FPS

That OAL looks like it pretty much matches what I have for the 452-228-1R. Good to know.


I'm embarrassed to say that I can't remember the o.a.l. on ANY of my 200 gr. SWC loads. The one thing I DO try to be unfailingly consistent about is seating the bullet with its driving band/shoulder ~1/32" above the case mouth. I also taper crimp in a separate step.
Mild loads are:
4.0/Bullseye/200 gr. SWC
4.2/IMR-700X/200 gr. SWC
5.8/Unique/200 gr. SWC

More emphatic loads are:
5.0/Bullseye/200 gr. SWC
4.6/IMR-700X/200 gr. SWC
7.2/Unique/200 gr. SWC
As always, work up to these gradually. The Unique load will break 1000 f/s in 5" 1911A1.

Don't be embarrassed. What you're providing just reinforces what I have planned for loading this boolit to. Thanks for sharing!


5.5 Unique for every bullet I use in 45 ACP/AR/GAP and most of the S&W loads from 196-265 gr . Of course the 265 gr 452-255 is seated long out to the first lube groove because OAL isn't a big deal where an ACP cylinder would accommodate 45 Colts length .

More confirmation of what I had in mind for it. Thanks, Harter.

[jdgabbard]

Thank you jdgabbard for calling my error. I posted on my phone and fat fingered the wrong number. 7.0 is what I use for 800x in 200gr 45acp. Just enough to reliably cycle the action, and the empties are at my feet.

All members and guests: just a friendly reminder to double check all load data against published data. Normally I take pictures directly from the manuals to post, and will return to the habbit. I appologize to all for my error.

***I did edit my original post, but not sure if jdgabbards quote will correct or not.

I've added a disclaimer to the post. I didn't change the quote, for the records sake. But there is a gigantic disclaimer on it in bold red type.

[danmat]

Okay ... I can help you with Target Loads and the 200 gr. SWC in 45 acp.
I shot NRA Bullsyey Match Pistol in an indoor shooting league for about twenty years .
We fired 22 , 38 and 45 ...and 45 was my favorite leg and what I enjoyed most .
These loads were worked up first with the Lyman #452460 (200 gr. SWC) and then with the similar Lee #452-200-SWC .
I don't have any OAL's ... we were taught to leave a "thumbnail's thickness " of top driving band protruding from the case mouth . Too much and the boolit would not plunk .
Not very scientific but it works and we made a dummy to set dies with for repeat setting !
How crude were our methods .

45 ACP 200 gr. cast lead SWC - Pet Target Loads :

4.5 grs. W231/HP38 @ 808 fps.

4.5 grs. Bullseye @ 830 fps

4.7 grs AA no.2 @ 832 fps

4.0 grs. TiteGroup @ 860 fps

4.2 grs Red Dot @ 794 fps

4.0 grs. 700X @ 824 fps

5.0 grs. Unique @ 726 fps

5.3 grs. Unique @ 760 fps ... I won a first place trophy in a 45 G.I. 1911 Match with this load.

These are my best shooting 45 acp loads ... hope they can be of some help .
Gary

Pretty much what I load, I have 4 45 acp guns they all like the Unique loads, worked up for the sweet spot.
My Les Baer will shoot 1 hole ragged groups at 25yds with 6 gr of unique.

[jdgabbard]

I loaded up some of these with 5.5gr of Unique at 1.235" OAL this weekend. Went shooting at the indoor range, shooting a hundred of these as well as 100 of the Lee 452-228-1R over the same 5.5gr of Unique. I wasn't really shooting my best that day, it was early in the morning and I hadn't really had my coffee that day. Targets were parked at the 15yd marker, large sheets with the approximate 6x9" bulls.

First observation would have to be that these seem to be finicky on OAL. I say that due to several Nose-Up failure to feeds, or three point jams. Then again, this could be my particular 1911 and magazine (a Citadel model with all the bells and whistles - actually made by RIA I believe). The factory magazine could be an issue, as I observed several things concerning the jams: 1) Typically on the last round in the magazine. 2) When not the last round it was the third to last round. Something else I noticed is that there doesn't seem to be a typical controlled feed with this pistol. While slowly hand cycling a dummy round I noted that the round doesn't first make a dip then lift the nose up to the top of the chamber. Instead it performs much like a modern pistol where the round rides smoothly all the way up the feed ramp until the round is release to slide under the extractor. I suppose that I could be experiencing an issue with that as well. Failure to feed happened about 10-15% of the time while shooting.

Other than that the gun seemed reasonably accurate. No better or worse than factory ammo. But definitely not the most accurate pistol load I've shot - though this result might be tainted as I already said I wasn't shooting my best that morning. That said, I'm bumping my load up to 6.0gr of Unique to see if driving it a little faster can tighten the groups up. I don't have a taper crimp die, so I may end up purchasing one to see if that helps improve groups.

Having said that, I'm looking forward to finding the perfect combination for this boolit in my pistols. It's fairly economical where it concerns the 45 to cast. And in a six cavity mold I can make a mountain quick. Actually I probably need a bigger pot, as I can empty mine in no time....

[Shiloh]

4.4 gr. Bullseye. 832 fps average.

Shiloh

[fredj338]

Just purchased one of these in the S&S section. I've previously used the 452-228-1R and NOE 452-230-HP with good results using 4.5gr Red Dot and 5.5gr Unique. But does anyone have any favorite loads for the 452-200-SWC? I hear it is just different enough from the H&G #68 that it needs the loads changed up a little. What are you loads, OALs and general advice to using the Lee version?

FYI, this will be run in 3x 1911s. One a safe queen with all the bells/whistles. One a RIA Officers Model. And the last a Auto Ordinance A1 clone - I hear this one might not like it due to the throat in the barrel.
Really no diff in loads for the #68 or a few of the clones like the Lee. I am a big fan of WST un the 45acp with lead bullets of any weight. I load the MAgma version @ 1.260. It runs fine in several 1911s. Yes good magazines are important.

[StrawHat]

I have been following this thread and enjoy reading the comments. I do not load for a 1911 but do load for various ACP revolvers. My question, except for the bevel base, is the Lee mold a decent copy of the H&G mold? I am looking for a good 200 grain boolit to try and save a bit of lead.

Thank you.

Kevin

[megasupermagnum]

I have been following this thread and enjoy reading the comments. I do not load for a 1911 but do load for various ACP revolvers. My question, except for the bevel base, is the Lee mold a decent copy of the H&G mold? I am looking for a good 200 grain boolit to try and save a bit of lead.

Thank you.

Kevin

You can read my post #22 and decide for yourself. My opinion is the Arsenal version is superior.