A Most Unusual Military Rifle-1867 Austrian Werndl

[Rockindaddy]

The Model 1867 Werndl rifle is one of the most unique firearms to be developed for metallic cartridges. Josef Werndl and Karl Holub traveled to Hartford CT and visited Colt after our American Civil War that ended in 1865. They purchased a load of Pratt & Whitney machine tools and had them shipped back to Austria. The Prussians and Austrians were fighting in 1866. The Prussians had the bolt action breech loading Dryse Needle gun that could be operated and easily fired 10 rounds/minute. The Austrians fought with Lorenz muzzle loading muskets. The battle of Koniggratz was a disaster for the Austrians. A new rifle was needed. Werndl and Holub developed a rotating breech lock rifle to be designated the Werndl Rifle. By this time all the western europeans were scrambling to develop a breech loading metallic cartridge rifle. Most developments were bolt action designs. The Werndl is a complicated piece of machine work! Look close at the photos. The receiver required quite a few difficult machine operations. The rotary breech is basically a rotating drum that turns on a center axis. The face of the drum has a 9* helix machined into the face to operate the extractor. The rear of the rotating bolt has a 5* helical cut that advances it forward to engage the cartridge face. A 9* helical groove is cut into the side of the rotary bolt to move the extractor cam. A backplate keyed into the rear of the receiver has a matching 5* helix to cam the rotating drum-bolt forward. The firing pin moves at an angle through the drum similar to the Trapdoor Springfield. The cartridge is an 11.15 x 58mm round with a paper patched lead projectile. The rifle is about 9 1/2 lbs. The rifle is fun and accurate to shoot. I have fourteen 45-70 rifles, but this one is the odd one. Always gets the attention of other shooters at the range who313190313191313192313193313194313195 always jump at the chance to shoot this strange piece.313196313197

[trails4u]

At 11.15x58R, you have an 1867/77 model.

https://www.militaryrifles.com/austria/m1867werndl

I love mine.....it's one of my favorites in the collection!! Mine also shoots a .446 cast bullet to good effect if you'd like to get away from the paper patching. Brass very easily made from .348 Win.

[Rockindaddy]

Hey trails: My rifle was a bargain rifle as the bore looked like the Iranian Camel Brigade camped in the bore! Bought a new 33 1/2" 45 cal barrel from Borchardt in New Mexico. It was an 1 1/2" diameter blank. Turned it and threaded it and chambered the old rifle to 45-70. But the rotating bolt design really gets it! The Austrians did not solder the rear sight base to the barrel. The whole rear sight boss was machined into the barrel. Took awhile to set it up on a dividing head to rotary machine the boss into the new barrel blank. But I made a new front sight and silver brazed it in place. Guess my rifle is the experimental 11.6 mm (45 Govt) export model!!!

[ascast]

I also have a few of these. My go to rifle for big bore work. Mine good one will shoot the 448 bullets, even though groove dia is about .452 IIRC.

[Jack Stanley]

All these years later and it's still such a cool rifle !!

Jack

[Rockindaddy]

Trails: These fine very well made rifles must all have a 8 -10 lb trigger pull. But I am like you! I also love this rifle! Guess I am in love with all of my 45-70 rifles; the lever guns, falling blocks, and trapdoors. I removed the lock on this Werndl and thinned out the main spring and gave it a nice finish polish. Then soldered a piece of brass onto the tumbler just in front of the full cock sear notch. This reduced the sear engagement. Trigger is a nice 4 lbs Sure made a difference in the group at 100 yds May try to bang Bambi this fall with the M1867 Werndl .

[armoredman]

I have never even heard of such a thing - how does it work, or, more appropriately, did Ian from Forgotten Weapons do a video on one of these yet?

[trails4u]

Trails: These fine very well made rifles must all have a 8 -10 lb trigger pull. But I am like you! I also love this rifle! Guess I am in love with all of my 45-70 rifles; the lever guns, falling blocks, and trapdoors. I removed the lock on this Werndl and thinned out the main spring and gave it a nice finish polish. Then soldered a piece of brass onto the tumbler just in front of the full cock sear notch. This reduced the sear engagement. Trigger is a nice 4 lbs Sure made a difference in the group at 100 yds May try to bang Bambi this fall with the M1867 Werndl .

You are soooooo correct about the trigger pull. And 8-10 is being VERY kind. I'm guessing mine is closer to 20. No joke. I've thought about the spring mod (ala rolling block style) but have hesitated as mine's all original and in pretty good shape. Can't imagine the used parts market is strong for these, so I grin and pull hard. :)

[trails4u]

I have never even heard of such a thing - how does it work, or, more appropriately, did Ian from Forgotten Weapons do a video on one of these yet?

But of course he did!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVqgvyQ0Tvw

[trails4u]

Hey trails: My rifle was a bargain rifle as the bore looked like the Iranian Camel Brigade camped in the bore! Bought a new 33 1/2" 45 cal barrel from Borchardt in New Mexico. It was an 1 1/2" diameter blank. Turned it and threaded it and chambered the old rifle to 45-70. But the rotating bolt design really gets it! The Austrians did not solder the rear sight base to the barrel. The whole rear sight boss was machined into the barrel. Took awhile to set it up on a dividing head to rotary machine the boss into the new barrel blank. But I made a new front sight and silver brazed it in place. Guess my rifle is the experimental 11.6 mm (45 Govt) export model!!!

Fun conversion for sure..... Won't lie, it hurts my heart a bit but if the bore was toast, it's not like you could have gone bigger with the original. I DO appreciate the decision to put it back in 45Gov....although 43 Spanish might have been pretty cool too, eh?:kidding:

[Rockindaddy]

The conversion of the M1867 11mm Austrian cartridge to 11.6 mm (45-70) was expensive enough with an 1 1/2" Borchardt .458 34" blank at $280 and all the time to turn and taper the blank to the original dimensions of the factory barrel. I already have two 45-70 finish reamers. A new 43 Spanish or 11mm Austrian reamer would have been $150~$200. I do have a good supply of .348 Winchester brass. But I like to use my .348 Win brass for 11mm Vickers, 11mm Grau, and 11mm Swiss Vetterli. The simple conversion from 11mm Austrian to 45-70 Govt allows me to use my Gatling Gun ammo from a Dillon Super 1050 that spits out an easy 700 rounds an hour. Have alot of lead, powder, and 45-70 brass. Its cheap to shoot my M1867 Austrian Werndl !! With the 4lb trigger; its nice to shoot and very accurate! It's always fun to hand a friend or someone at the range a handful of shells and the rifle and tell them to have fun. They usually get an appreciation for the old cartridges and shooten irons that spit em out!!!

[Rockindaddy]

The old black powder cartridge rifles always seem to have heavy trigger pulls. Most Trapdoor Springfields need to have the tumbler sear notch stepped. Not ground down that allows for the sear to crash into the safety notch and results in a broken sear or damaged tumbler safety notch. A small piece of brass soft soldered on the tumbler full cock notch limits the sear engagement and makes for a crisp trigger pull with no creep. Sometimes a grind and belt sand reduction in the mainspring makes a softer hammer strike. It is a happy medium to reduce the trigger pull and still have enough hammer steam to detonate the primer. A 3~4 lb trigger pull is a shooters bliss!!!

[Chuck williams]

I just got one and the barrel is FRIED. Do you remember the thread size/pitch? Do any other rifles share the same thread or do I have to bring the original and blank to a machinist so they can measure/match it?

[Rockindaddy]

Can't remember the thread pitch. It is an SAE square thread like a Sharps. Not hard to thread and chamber. A depth mike will measure the shoulder to the face of cartridge. Same dimension from the receiver ring to the closed breech face. Easy!

[freakonaleash]

I've got the brass but haven't found a good rifle yet. It's on my must have list.

[WILCO]

Reminds me of the action on a Zulu Shotgun. :)

[405grain]

The action on the 1867 Werndl looks similar to the 1874 Phoenix rifle. The Werndl has a much thicker breech block, but they both rotate kind of like on a 577 Snider rifle. A very cool design.

[pworley1]

I have 2 and the trigger pull on one is 14lbs and the other is 16lbs. They didn't need a safety.

[trails4u]

When I got my carbine I had high hopes the trigger pull would be better..... Uh....nope.

[Rockindaddy]

That heavy military trigger pull is easy to fix. Thin the hammer spring by grinding or belt sanding. Solder a small piece of brass on the full cock notch. That will limit the sear travel. You can get em down to 4 lbs or less.

[trails4u]

Both of mine are all original and in pretty incredible shape, both with pristine bores, good wood, cleaning rods intact and correct. As much as I would like to make them more shooter friendly, I just can't bring myself to modify any of the original...... It's my personal hell with these old guns..... I don't do wall hangers, insist on shooting it if I own it, I want it to perform well.....but, and the big, BUT, I can't bring myself to modify any original parts. .......It's a dilemma that I'm not likely to ever work through! :P

[fgd135]

As an aside, the POW escort guards at the Dresden train station, in that great opus "Slaughterhouse Five", are armed with Werndl's and Wanzl's.