Non Lead Alloy … adjusting BHN

[Krh1326]

Hi All!
My CommieCrat state has a bill in Senate, and a companion in Assembly, banning lead ammunition for hunting, on lands that are watersheds, for the Rotten Apple reservoirs.
I’m trying to get a jump on, for this years big game season, just in case the DooshCrats pass it all, by then.
I currently cast and load for some old levers and bolt guns. Mainly .35 Rem, 30-30 and .308. We’re heavy brush country… no real need for the real high pressure screamers.
I’ve been researching Bismuth, and been leaning on RotoMetals data and trial info, as well as scouring the webz.
I’ve replicated RotoMetals 87.25% Bismuth. .75% Antimony 12% Tin alloy.
They claim around 19 BHN . On my current test batch , of my own mixing, Im getting 16.6 BHN via a Lee tester, after ingot cool-down. Not the most accurate tester, my ingredient measurements may not have been as precise, and lastly my tin source, is saturated with dissolved copper…. So I expect some differences.

My question for all of the talent, on our site, is what can I introduce to my alloy, to drop the BHN a little bit, without adding lead? If my memory serves.. what I haz now, is just a bit harder than Hardball, and soooo not necessary, for the cartridges that I mentioned. But I know that I need to be careful about what is added, weight wise, as the Bismuth is already a bit lighter than lead.

Anyone wayyyyyyyyy out west, with same laws, found any solutions?
Thank you all!

[OS OK]

"Where are all the Metallurgist when you need one?" :bigsmyl2:

First thought that comes to mind is tin...add more tin to drop the overall BHN.
It's going to be a more expensive casting material but you don't need much of it to work-up a load and hunt with it.

¿Are you going to lube-size or PC or what?

[dtknowles]

Why have any antimony?
Tim

[Dusty Bannister]

Having no experience with the alloy you are making, my first question is, will the alloy age harden or age soften. If you tested soon after casting, it might change and make your concern moot. As stated above, is the antimony necessary? Does the copper actually make the alloy harder or just tougher. I think there is a sticky on adding copper to alloys. If you have not yet done an XRF scan on your ingredients, you really do not know what you are mixing and the results are not reliable. Do you NEED to drop the hardness or are you just thinking that the two alloys of wildly different make up, will perform the same because the hardness is similar?

[35 Rem]

Steping back from th technicalities of your question I have to ask whether or not your bullet of new material will be viewed as acceptable by a Game Warden even if you do come up with a useable alloy. All they are going to see is a cast bullet that is gray in color - "hmmm, must be lead" they are likely to say. I'd bet you won't find one in a thousand that even knows what a cast bullet is - they will just see that it's not a normal jacketed bullet with lead core and not really know what it is. I'd expect the only bullets they will recognize as legal are the solid copper alloy types.

[BLAHUT]

I have tried just pure Bismuth and Copper bullets, just need to keep the loads light. Maybe just 1200 FPS or a tad less, Too fast or too much pressure, then all they do is slide down the barred and lead and copper all the rifling.. Accuracy for me was good, same as with pure lead.

[Krh1326]

The antimony, is actually necessary, to combat the giant crystalline form of Bismuth.
I’m following several articles, by a few at Artful Bullet, who are actually the guys that came up with this formula, in cahoots with RotoMetals. My problem is that they are some real scientists…. Engineers etc, and some of the data and definitions and many other factors that they are working with, escapes me.

I have nothing but raw, seething contempt, for my state gov. I am not worried about the CO / warden as RMs does provide certificates with their alloys… if the CO can’t tell the difference of nice soft lead, and crystalline metals, with a simple pair of pliers, then there is a provision that they can confiscate a round(s) for analysis. So as long as I can hand over something, that I KNOW is <1% lead, I’m good.

There is a reason for limiting the tin, but escapes me at the moment… I have to dive back deep into their research.

[Krh1326]

Ok … this might not be so bad. I just cast 12 for .35 Rem in a Lee .358 x 200 gr RF. I sized one to .359 , with copper GC. Decided to try to PC , with lower heat. Did not detect slumping , or sweating out BI. Water cooled because I’m being impatient. Just weighed out to 180 grs.

Will have to load some, and see…

313205

[405grain]

I despise the lead bullet ban in California. We're not allowed to use any bullets that contain lead for hunting. This even includes black powder muzzle loaders and 22lr. Years ago, when they were extending this lead bullet ban from the "condor zone" to state wide, I wrote a letter to the Governor. I informed him that if they stopped the use of traditional bullets in controlling varmints (rodents) on alfalfa and hay farms, the farmers would have to resort to using poisons to control their crop losses. It was environmentally better to continue using traditional bullets because the poison would spread to the predators that eat the rodents. They didn't listen because their agenda is anti-gun at all costs, and making it more expensive and difficult for hunters just fits in with their goals. Yesterday I went to go ground squirrel hunting on an alfalfa pivot. There were no squirrels there, but I did find the bodies of two dead bald eagles. Later I found out that the pivot had been poisoned. Lead bullet bans aren't about protecting the environment, they're about making it more difficult for hunters - which erodes shooting opportunities and weakens the base for 2A rights. 313216

[Krh1326]

It’s the NYC skum. The beef, is on land that contributes ground water, to their reservoirs. As if all of their water doesn’t currently pass thru thousands of miles of lead pipe, that won’t ever be replaced, unless there is repair work on a section. Here it’s the anti gun crowd, doing anything they can…. Cut them off, says I.

[MT Gianni]

How will you satisfactorily explain to a zealous game warden that you are not using lead because your projectiles resemble them?

[GregLaROCHE]

What is the BHN of bismuth? Why adding the antimony? Maybe some tin helps with fill out.

[Krh1326]

How will you satisfactorily explain to a zealous game warden that you are not using lead because your projectiles resemble them?

Post 7

The bill says there is clause for a CO to confiscate any cartridge in possession for analysis.
But it is obvious, handling them, that they are different.
In the notes, they stated that the BI boolits would withstand a few hammer whacks, starting to compress and expand, before cracking.
I have not done any testing with hammer nor with pliers, as of yet, but will this weekend.

As of right now, my initial plan is to have a lead and a BI boolit, not in cartridges , in pocket , to produce along with my leatherman. Ohhhhh , I’ll make sure that they are HPs , for ease of testing with pliers, and that they are for a caliber, that I don’t have in the field.

[Krh1326]

What is the BHN of bismuth? Why adding the antimony? Maybe some tin helps with fill out.

RotoMetals claims their alloy is 19 BHN. My home mixed batch came in at 16 using Lee tester. ( not the most scientific and accurate device, but good enough for me ) I’m sure my ingredient measurements were not as precise, as theirs, and my tin source is saturated with dissolved copper, so I’m not surprised with a differing result.

Antimony and tin in post 7. The antimony is to combat the enormous crystalline structure, of BI. There is 12% tin, in the alloy, and this is where I’m getting lost in the chemical jargon . They have these chart graff things, that are plotting liquid phasing, and a bunch of other stuff…… wayyyyyyyy off my scope.

I have a tough time getting through the technical and scientific and chemical and elemental engineering that went into this… If you can digest this stuff, the explanations for Antimony and Tin are in their notes.

https://www.artfulbullet.com/index.php?threads/lead-free-bullet-casting-alloy.5585/


And this is a synopsis of their research, and moving into casting and application.

https://www.artfulbullet.com/index.php?threads/casting-with-rotometals-lead-free-alloy.5627/

[Krh1326]

Having no experience with the alloy you are making, my first question is, will the alloy age harden or age soften. If you tested soon after casting, it might change and make your concern moot. As stated above, is the antimony necessary? Does the copper actually make the alloy harder or just tougher. I think there is a sticky on adding copper to alloys. If you have not yet done an XRF scan on your ingredients, you really do not know what you are mixing and the results are not reliable. Do you NEED to drop the hardness or are you just thinking that the two alloys of wildly different make up, will perform the same because the hardness is similar?
My concern for the bhn, for hunting, is purely for expansion concerns. But having taken a deeper dive, the expansion will only got so far, before cracking can potentially occur.
I started with known ingredients. Chunks of 99.99% BI and 99.99% Antimony Shot , both from RotoMetals. My Tin source was my own homemade Sterling Solder mini muffins, that I have previously dissolved copper to complete saturation. Sterling Solder is made up of Tin/Copper/Selenium, and is lead-free. The copper doesn’t affect BHN but acts like chemical rebar, in concrete, for toughness.
My after cast Lee test was 16 , I plan on testing again, and again as time goes on.

I didn’t use RotoMetals alloy, just their recipe, for my own silly reason. Because I had made those copper saturated tin pucks. Initial reading of these articles , made me want to try to incorporate the high copper content, to fight some of the large crystal, potentially brittle issues.

[Krh1326]

Update:

I ground a flat side in one, and Lee tested for BHN. I came up with 17.9 BHN this time. Also, I believe I misstated original BHN test… it was 16.6 not my reported 16. Again, RotoMetals and the guys developing this, claim 19 BHN.
When I ground the side flat, for testing, I had gripped it, lengthwise, with visegrips. That did begin to deform both nose and base. I then struck it once, on anvil, and it shattered immediately, first shot.
313227

I think the stress from gripping with vice grips and the grinding, may have caused the shattering, prematurely.
I then took one, that has not been altered, touched or anything, and struck it, on anvil.
It compressed linearly for 4 hammer strikes. The 5th strike yielded the cracking shown in pix.
313227 313228

[Bigslug]

My Dad tinkered with the Rotometals alloy thinking that we might hunt with it, or an extra-tin version thereof. We slammed a lot of milk jugs - I doubt very much you'll find a reliable way to get expansion out of the stuff; meplat and velocity will be the best you can do. . .and remember that the velocity retention will be reduced due to the lack of starting weight.

Here's where we ended up:

Hunt with Barnes, Hornady Monoflex, or one of the other copper monometal bullets and find a cast lead practice load that's close enough to give you decent feedback on cans, water bottles, or whatever you use to train on.

We were a little disappointed in that this approach limits us to the same "meat and potatoes" modern calibers you're shooting, but the simple fact of life is that hunting here is challenging enough even with optics and modern trajectories, and the period rifles with iron sights and odd bore diameters we muse about taking into the field add difficulty we really don't need.

This approach isn't really all that expensive when you consider that if you are only shooting enough of the coppers to confirm zero, one or two hundred of them may be a lifetime supply. A couple cheaper cup & core jacketed bullets atop the same powder could be used as a "throwaway" pre-season bore-fouler.

Probably not the answer you're after, but it's been working for us.

[Krh1326]

I get it…

On another note…. I did just find this really cool vid, of 12g 150 oz Bismuth Slug.

https://youtu.be/26K6AE_4tNA

[GregLaROCHE]

I understand you wanting more expansion for hunting. If you can’t lower the BHN. Maybe consider hollow points.