Chain Fires

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Reading around this forum I see Chain Fires mentioned. I have not experienced one no beem around one.
I have Always used a TIGHT fitted ball . I generally use Crisco or 50/50 Beeswax and Olive oil on top of my ball.
I was told years ago the TIGHT ball was #1 for accuracy and #2 "Eliminate Chain Fires". The Lube was for the powder residue to stay soft and for leading.
I generally load 25-30 grains 3F in my 44´s of various replicas. I do know at least once I forgot to lube the cylinders and no chain fire occured.
So I am wondering... I would think the lube would HELP eliminate chain firing... But is it the real factor in Stopping chain fires ?
Would not the tight fitted ball STOP any spark from entering the cylinder ?
Thanks Mike :coffee: It´s 5:30 here and time for another cup !
God Bless you !

[bobk]

It's my impression that a properly fitting cap may be a factor in preventing this occurrence. I've never experienced it, myself. I think what might be happening is that a cap falls off, and this adjacent chamber fires because of a spark entering the hole in the nipple. Sounds too exciting for this old man.
Bob K

[GabbyM]

Using to hard of lead will cause problems.
I've an old Euro Arms 1860 that has developed lots of cylinder play for to aft. Leaving a large barrel to cylinder gap. Mix that with hard balls and I get chain fire more often than not. Whatever grease you've packed over the balls is blasted away with the first shot. It wasn't that way 38 years ago when it was new. Thousands of 36gr fffg loads later it is. I Think I should have sawed a little off my powder flask spout.

[northmn]

Interesting point on the cylinder gap. I have heard of them but never seen one. We used to have a rapid fire match where we timed to see how fast four chunks of firewood could be shot off a support, kind of like bowling pin. I always used max loads so that the ball barely cleared the barrel. While the lube would melt it was still in place only liquidized. Even used to pinch #11 caps on to keep them in place. Wonder if the extra fire permitted by cylinder gap may have something to do with it combined with the fact that a sligtly larger soft lead ball can be used for sealing. Must be an interesting experience.

Northmn

[Mtman314]

I use wads behind the ball and did away with the grease totally. I've seen what happens to a gun when it chain fires though never been around a chain fire myself.

[GabbyM]

I've also put new nipples on that revolver but have not shot it since. The extra gas coming out the nipple may have been the culprit or one of them. What always impressed me is it was never just one or two cylinders that went off. Was all or nothing. I also bent my loading lever pushing in those hard balls. Obviously had more than one issue going on.

The chain fire isn't as exciting as you may think. I wouldn't even notice sometimes and try to cock it again only to find the cylinder jammed with a ball and a couple balls laying at my feet.
Now if an enemy with a hatchet was coming at me that would be an OS moment.

[leadeye]

Using to hard of lead will cause problems.
I've an old Euro Arms 1860 that has developed lots of cylinder play for to aft. Leaving a large barrel to cylinder gap. Mix that with hard balls and I get chain fire more often than not. Whatever grease you've packed over the balls is blasted away with the first shot. It wasn't that way 38 years ago when it was new. Thousands of 36gr fffg loads later it is. I Think I should have sawed a little off my powder flask spout.

I have one of those old Euroarms 1860s with exactly the same problem. It is now a fireplace mantle decoration. Good one while it shot, but like all things they get old.:-D

[bobk]

GabbyM,
Couldn't you fabricate a washer to tighten the barrel-to-cylinder gap. Trick we used to do to thin washers was to slip the appropriate I.D. washer over a wooden pencil, hold it lightly against the side of a grinder wheel. Be sure to let it cool before handling!
Bob K

[ovendoctor]

had 3 of 6 chambers go off on a haws cap n ball[smilie=1:

scared the begebers out of me. everything was greased the temp was 110 degrees in Az.

had a hunk of lead hung on both ends of the wedge pin for the barrel

all I know is it went for trade at the pistol parlor that afternoon:drinks:

[missionary5155]

had 3 of 6 chambers go off on a haws cap n ball[smilie=1:

scared the begebers out of me. everything was greased the temp was 110 degrees in Az.

had a hunk of lead hung on both ends of the wedge pin for the barrel

all I know is it went for trade at the pistol parlor that afternoon:drinks:

Greetings Ovendoctor
Thanks for that commo...
Question Were the balls slightly oversized ? Were the balls soft lead ? Just want to clearify that. If they were oversize and soft then your chain fire sounds more like it was initiated fron the nipple area as a previous post stated....
Mike

[mooman76]

Using to hard of lead will cause problems.
I've an old Euro Arms 1860 that has developed lots of cylinder play for to aft. Leaving a large barrel to cylinder gap. Mix that with hard balls and I get chain fire more often than not. Whatever grease you've packed over the balls is blasted away with the first shot. It wasn't that way 38 years ago when it was new. Thousands of 36gr fffg loads later it is. I Think I should have sawed a little off my powder flask spout.

I have a Navy 36 that has that problem but I think it developed it from overloading. The guy I bought it from, I asked how much he loaded in it and he said he just loaded it to the top! The frame was a little loose but after the first shot it always tightened up for whatever reason. My idea was to buy a new frame and fix it but it cost almost as much as just getting a new gun so it never happened. On further observation the pin that was moulded into the frame that held the cyl. was loose. I was trying to take apart and fix it but I sort of messed it up so it's a wall hanger now and I replaced it with another used one.

I have never bought off on that grease in the cyl keeps from having chain fires theory. The lead ball is pressed in tight so how could a flame get past it. It did need lube anyway so that's sort of beside the point. I do believe I had a chain fire years ago but don't know for sure if it was me forgetting to load a cyl. or if it went off.

[tonyb]

Grease is also for lube. I always used wheel bearing grease level with the top of the cylinder.

[ovendoctor]

Greetings Ovendoctor
Thanks for that commo...
Question Were the balls slightly oversized ? Were the balls soft lead ? Just want to clearify that. If they were oversize and soft then your chain fire sounds more like it was initiated fron the nipple area as a previous post stated....
Mike

on that C & B the balls were a good fit

No 11 caps were a little sloppy

went to No 10 [next size smaller]caps

all I know is the one under the hammer went + the one to the left went
skipped the one to the right and dumped the second to the right[smilie=w:

[GabbyM]

GabbyM,
Couldn't you fabricate a washer to tighten the barrel-to-cylinder gap. Trick we used to do to thin washers was to slip the appropriate I.D. washer over a wooden pencil, hold it lightly against the side of a grinder wheel. Be sure to let it cool before handling!
Bob K

Could be wrong on this but I think what the gunsmiths do is remove some metal from the end of the frame where the barrel butts up. Then you'd need to fit the wedge pin correctly. Stretch in the frame is what opens up the barrel to cylinder gap. I've heard that's the downside of the brass frame pistols.

What really needs fixed is the 6 inches the gun belt I got with it when I was 15 lacks going around me now.

[boommer]

I think they come from lose balls or lose caps. All the cb's I've had use no.10 caps and I CAUGHT MY BROTHER IN LAW PINCHING 11'S to get them to stay on,he didn't know that it used 10's this might be were these guys get into trouble. I can't see it chain firing by flame getting past tight fitting balls seated.

[GabbyM]

I always used #10 caps in my revolver. #11's in my Hawken.

Probably won't get flame past tight fitting balls but that's why I mentioned to hard of lead. I think polishing the cylinders may help to.
If you can't dent the ball with your load lever it must be to hard.

A worn cap nipple will blow more gas than one may think. On my Hawken rifle I'd know they were worn out when my hammer would recock from the gas jet.

[Dark Helmet]

More Crisco- Mo' betta

[northmn]

I pinched #11 caps on more than one revolver and never had a chain fire. I used to shoot them quite a bit and even in rapid fire competition as I have mentioned. Bearing grease or any petroleum based grease is not recommended for BP. In a revolver it may not be so bad but in a rifle it will give rock hard foulding. Crisco always worked well. The only things I can think of on chain firing might be large holes in the nipples that permit powder to dribble into the ignition area. Loose nipples again unlikely. Unlikely, but leaks in cylinder walls, and leakage around a ball. Maybe the harder ball do not seal as well coupled with the extra flash from excessive gap. They always used to say that you should have a small ring of lead cut off when you load a BP revolver. The grease melts, but you still see a wet film on the ball. Also too small a ball tends to back out and lock the cylinder. The most damage done to a C&B revolver is done by loading the wrong size ball or too hard a ball. You not only stretch the frame but you get oblong holes for the retaining pins. Some used to resleeve them.

Northmn

[waksupi]

When I was still shooting C&B revolvers, I would use a pinch of cornmeal under the balls, rather than grease.
The inert filler worked well, and it seemed I could shoot more before the cylinder would tie up with fouling.

[Old Ironsights]

Good morning
Reading around this forum I see Chain Fires mentioned. I have not experienced one no beem around one.
I have Always used a TIGHT fitted ball . I generally use Crisco or 50/50 Beeswax and Olive oil on top of my ball.
I was told years ago the TIGHT ball was #1 for accuracy and #2 "Eliminate Chain Fires". The Lube was for the powder residue to stay soft and for leading.
I generally load 25-30 grains 3F in my 44´s of various replicas. I do know at least once I forgot to lube the cylinders and no chain fire occured.
So I am wondering... I would think the lube would HELP eliminate chain firing... But is it the real factor in Stopping chain fires ?
Would not the tight fitted ball STOP any spark from entering the cylinder ?
Thanks Mike :coffee: It´s 5:30 here and time for another cup !
God Bless you !

If you are using a properly fitting ball - i.e. one that shaves a continuous ring of lead when pressed into the cylinder - you are absolutely correct.

there is no physical way for falme/heat/spark to pass the swaged ball to get to the power.

The lube doesn't do anything but lube.

Now, OTOH, if you have poorly fitting caps - or an unlubed cylinder than has undersized/poorly fitting balls, then it is QUITE possible to have a chain fire... but one or more of those conditions MUST apply.

Loose Cap &/or Unlubed, Undersized Ball that doesn't swage into the cylinder

No other way to get a chain fire.

A properly loaded C&B revolver is almost watertight. A little flame won't blow it up.

[bobk]

Uh oh. If you use cornmeal in your loads, does this mean you're a cereal killer?
Bob K

[waksupi]

Uh oh. If you use cornmeal in your loads, does this mean you're a cereal killer?
Bob K

I believe that is known as a groaner!

[Bloodman14]

I'm not sure I understand this whole 'frame stretching' issue; if the ball/gasses are leaving the muzzle, creating recoil in the OPPOSITE direction, how can the frame get 'longer' or stretch? It seems to me, it would stay tight between the barrel and cylinder face, due to the forces in the OPPOSITE direction.

[richbug]

I had one chain fire once, set off 3 cylinders in a CVA 1851 copy. Tight balls, covered with Crisco. First and only time I used RWS/Dynamit/Nobel caps. The caps seemed tight on the nipples.

[bob208]

i had a walker colt let go one time it had the tight balls and crisco over the balls. but and here is what did it. i was shooting and when a cap fell off i did not replace it right away they were lose caps and had tobe pinched a little to stay on. 3 chambers let go at once.

so this is what i learned from years of shooting cap and ball pistoles.

1. grease the balls with crisco it lubes the barrel and also lubes the front of the cylander and the base pin. just from being shot out of the cylander. i don't use filler on top of the powder it only fouls up the gun.

2 use a good pure lead tight fitting ball.

3 use good tight fitting caps. and if one falls off recap right away.

[Linstrum]

In one of Roy Dunlap's books from the late 1940s, he mentions chain fire problems in real old original pistols from the Civil War era that had pin hole corrosion between chambers in the cylinder. If you look at an 1858 Remington .44 caliber cylinder you can see there isn't much meat between chambers, so that could happen in a real old gun that didn't get cleaned often enough.

But since those old original guns are now over 140 years old, they aren't encountered much anymore. I think the biggest source of fire leakage between chambers is via the nipple holes due to poorly fitting caps or even blown caps since I have had a few caps that split upon firing and opened up like those old pleated paper Dixie cups (remember those? One time when I was working a stake-out I got real bored sitting in an office at 2AM waiting for the burglar to show up, so I filled up Dixie cups from the water dispenser in the office and dropped them on the floor to bulge them out and I got so I could drop them without any water splashing out - - - but back to chain fires). Another problem is the lead ball not sealing because of a small ding in the side of the chamber that cuts a channel into the side of the ball that fire can go down and get past the seal the ball makes. The dings I have seen are made by the ball ram punch hitting the mouth of the chamber from the cylinder not being lined up right when pressing in a ball. One of my 1858 Remington .44s had a dinged chamber mouth that I had to take a reamer to to remove the metal that was dented-over into the chamber opening and scored the ball when it went by the ding. I think a big dose of grease over the ball would seal that IF the channel along the side of the ball were small enough. If one particular chamber constantly goes off when another chamber is fired then I'd check that out as a possibilty for a pistol that isn't rusted. Rust pits on a chamber wall in a gun that is pretty corroded could be another possibilty.


rl630

[2ndAmendmentNut]

I have never had a chain fire happen to me, but then again my experience with a C&Bs is pretty limited. From my understanding the lube simply keeps fouling soft, and the tight ball is for accuracy and to prevent against chain fire. I have a few friends that experience a chain fire with a C&B. They did not know what they were doing and neither did the owner of the guns. Upon questioning the exact details it turned out that they had used the wrong sized caps! If I remember correctly they should have use #10s, but instead they used the #11s from the muzzleloader.

[SPRINGFIELDM141972]

I have fired many C&B revolvers, in all different states of condition. (loose frames, loose pins, corroded chambers, etc.) I believe the number one cause of chain fires is improper fitting of the cap to the nipple. If you have to pinch a cap to fit the nipple then the cap isn't seated fully onto the nipple. I believe the caps in effect become their own hammer during recoil, and discharge by hitting the nipple. This effect is multiplied when the cylinder is allowed to move due to a stretched frame. The Colt are renowned for chain fires, where as the Rems. are not. I think the reason you hear more Colts than Rems is that the action is inherently stronger there for there is less axial movement from stretching, ergo less cylinder movement and less movement from improper fitting nipples. If chain fires were caused by leaking gases getting into the next cylinder then every chain fire would fire the cylinders in sequential order not just skip around the cylinder.

Now that you have my opinion you may take 75 cents and get yourself a cup of coffee :coffeecom

Regards,
Everett

[docone31]

That makes the most sense.
Wedges get loosened, allowing the cylinder to move. As the cylinder hammers backwards, a loose nipple/cap could make a chain fire.
That explanation actually makes sense.
I never could figuire out how the powder could fly backwards to enter from a closed ball, or jump from one nipple to another, then travel down the tube to the charge.
The older pistols, yeah, some pinhole rusting. The newer ones, I am in favor of the loose nipple/cap combo.

[jim4065]

Just got through firing an Old Army for the first time. The . 457 balls had a typical nib, which I centered down in the chambers. Centered up interfered with the cylinder rotation - I was using 40 grains of 3F and a Wonder Wad. Anyway - it brings up the question of a gap (however small) by the nib if it was positioned sideways? (Or the flat on a Lee ball for that matter.) The Wonder Wad should have sealed the cylinder anyway, and I was careful with the nibs, but could this be one possible source of the "chain fires"? The Old Army doesn't shave any lead, but it does seem to swage down the ball. Never have seen a chain fire. :-?