Seating

[ILostMyGoat]

Hey guys hope y’all are well. I’m casting/ reloading for my Winchester 94 in 30-30 with Lee 309-200 sized to .311 with a gas check. The issue I’m having is if I don’t seat the boolit enough the rifle won’t cycle but if I seat it to the point of functioning the boolit is easily pressed into the case (if I load 5 in the tube shooting the first 2 -3 makes the remaining ones push in)

just looking for some advice on my next trouble shooting steps. Any help is appreciated! Thanks guys!


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[mdi]

Neck tension? Crimping? Unless the bullet is tapered, seating depth should not affect neck tension. Can you seat the bullet to the crimp groove and get good feeding?

[GregLaROCHE]

Try to see if you can crimp it harder.

[justindad]

Got pictures?

What dies are you using (all dies, not just the style of crimp)?

[El Bibliotecario]

Try to see if you can crimp it harder.

What he said.

I'm primarily a handloader, but I pulled up a photo of the Lee 309-200 and it appears to have a crimp groove that cries out for a roll crimp which would surely prevent bullets from being pushed deeper into the case. Is roll crimping heresy with a rifle round?

[ILostMyGoat]

What he said.

I'm primarily a handloader, but I pulled up a photo of the Lee 309-200 and it appears to have a crimp groove that cries out for a roll crimp which would surely prevent bullets from being pushed deeper into the case. Is roll crimping heresy with a rifle round?

I use RCBS 2 die sets and it says they do a roll crimp in them. Would an additional die to crimp or like the RCBS cowboy die sets work better?


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[Dusty Bannister]

I’m casting/ reloading for my Winchester 94 in 30-30 with Lee 309-200 sized to .311 with a gas check. The issue I’m having is if I don’t seat the boolit enough the rifle won’t cycle but if I seat it to the point of functioning the boolit is easily pressed into the case (if I load 5 in the tube shooting the first 2 -3 makes the remaining ones push in)


Not finding data in the Lyman cast bullet handbook, I have to wonder where you are getting data for the 200 grain bullet in the first place. I suspect that the nose of the bullet is where the weight is made up and that prevents the crimp being applied in the correct portion of the body of the bullet.

It might be a good idea to just work with the bullet weights that are designed to work in the 30-30 and not get too far out into the weeds with an overly heavy/long bullet for the firearm.

[405grain]

You're using the wrong bullet. The Lee 309-200 has too much nose ahead of the driving bands for your application. You might be able to single load them, but when seated them so that the crimping groove is at the case neck, the cartridge will be too long to feed properly. For several reasons, seating deeper and crimping more won't help with this bullet design. You will have much better results if you use a bullet that was designed for the 30-30, like the Lyman # 311041, the Lee 309-150F, or the RCBS 30-150-FN.

[ILostMyGoat]

You're using the wrong bullet. The Lee 309-200 has too much nose ahead of the driving bands for your application. You might be able to single load them, but when seated them so that the crimping groove is at the case neck, the cartridge will be too long to feed properly. For several reasons, seating deeper and crimping more won't help with this bullet design. You will have much better results if you use a bullet that was designed for the 30-30, like the Lyman # 311041, the Lee 309-150F, or the RCBS 30-150-FN.

This is great info. Thank you! I’ve been messing with it for a week now. I thought I could go a bit heavier and get some more bang for my buck. Oh well. Would you recommend Lyman over Lee? I initially bought Lee to get into it and now that I’m in it have been contemplating upgrading and this gives me a good excuse


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[Winger Ed.]

Both types of molds will work fine.
But once you've used Iron molds, you'll probably find yourself reaching for them first over Alum. ones.

Iron molds are kind of like beer. Once you've had the good stuff--- it's hard to go back to whatever is on sale.

[Larry Gibson]

I’m casting/ reloading for my Winchester 94 in 30-30 with Lee 309-200 sized to .311 with a gas check. The issue I’m having is if I don’t seat the boolit enough the rifle won’t cycle but if I seat it to the point of functioning the boolit is easily pressed into the case (if I load 5 in the tube shooting the first 2 -3 makes the remaining ones push in)


Not finding data in the Lyman cast bullet handbook, I have to wonder where you are getting data for the 200 grain bullet in the first place. I suspect that the nose of the bullet is where the weight is made up and that prevents the crimp being applied in the correct portion of the body of the bullet.

It might be a good idea to just work with the bullet weights that are designed to work in the 30-30 and not get too far out into the weeds with an overly heavy/long bullet for the firearm.

M94 30-30s have notoriously no throat or very little throat. If you seat the 200 gr Lee bullet correctly in the case as is should be with the chamber throated for it the M94 action won't feed them [they will be too long]. Point is, the 311041 and the Lee 170 are very close to a perfect fit for the 30-30 cartridge in lever actions. It's very hard to improve upon perfection. I gave up trying to use heavier cast bullets many years ago other than the 311041. You might consider just biting the bullet (pun intended) and getting a Lee 170 or Lyman 311041 mould.

[405grain]

IMHO either the Lyman or the RCBS molds are better than the Lee molds. You should also look at the selection from NOE and saeco, as they make excellent molds too. I gather that the Lyman #311041 is practically the "standard" mold for the 30-30 lever action, though I'm more of a bolt action guy.

[bedbugbilly]

Still curious - how are you crimping? Lee collet? Taper? Or roll?

+1 to all that's been said. Regardless of boolit weight - and I used to use some pretty light weight boolits to 150ish - 170ish grain boolits in my 94s and Marlin 336SC when I had them - I always used a roll crimp on my cast in conjunction with the tube magazines. I would think that a cast 200 grain load could easily have an issue with boolit movement from recoil if the neck tension was a bit off and a taper crimp, or even a collet crimp lightly applied was used. A roll crimp/crimp grove is going to hold it where it belongs.

A dummy round with an unfamiliar cast boolit can tell you a lot of things with a lever gun - is the COAL going to feed properly? Is the boolit design going to work with your rifle's throat? Just how good is your crimp if it feeds alright but you have a short throat?

Good luck!

[Kai]

Still curious - how are you crimping? Lee collet? Taper? Or roll?

+1 to all that's been said. Regardless of boolit weight - and I used to use some pretty light weight boolits to 150ish - 170ish grain boolits in my 94s and Marlin 336SC when I had them - I always used a roll crimp on my cast in conjunction with the tube magazines. I would think that a cast 200 grain load could easily have an issue with boolit movement from recoil if the neck tension was a bit off and a taper crimp, or even a collet crimp lightly applied was used. A roll crimp/crimp grove is going to hold it where it belongs.

A dummy round with an unfamiliar cast boolit can tell you a lot of things with a lever gun - is the COAL going to feed properly? Is the boolit design going to work with your rifle's throat? Just how good is your crimp if it feeds alright but you have a short throat?

Good luck!
Crimp has nothing to do with the posters problem. As he mentioned when seated and crimped properly the loaded rounds will not clear the magazine to enter the chamber as the nose of the bullet is to long. It's simply the incorrect bullet for a lever action 30-30.

[bedbugbilly]

Couldn't agree with you more Kai - it's pretty clear that he needs to use a different boolit - but he also mentions the boolit pushing back into the case. I'm merely posting on my experience as far as crimp used, the use of a dummy round to test feed, chambering, etc While I wouldn't have used that mold for the obvious reason that my own experiences would have told me that the COAL, if seated correctly, would not have worked in my 94s and Marlin - I mentioned how a dummy round can tell a person a lot as well as saving a person a lot of work (and sometimes expense) - something which applies to not only a 30-30 but other calibers of lever guns as well. My interest in the crimp? Pure curiosity - regardless of if the boolit he used is too long of a design - set back of a boolit in any rifle, but in his case a tubular magazine - if loaded to max could be a potential major issue - in any caliber - if by chance it was able to be cycled and chambered and then fired.

But, I've only been doing this for 60 + years so appreciate you educating me on it by pointing out the obvious.

You have a good day!

[GregLaROCHE]

That cartridge has been around for a long time. I’m sure it’s been experimented with a lot. Best go with what Dusty said and stay in the beaten path.

If you are thinking about a higher quality mold consider MP brass molds. There a good deal price vs quality. Sometimes items are out of stock, but usually They come back in stock shortly. Be sure and buy some handles, maybe two. They are the best deal I’ve found.

https://www.mp-molds.com/product-category/molds/

[gwpercle]

Your life will be a lot easier if you use the correct boolet .
The Lee C309-200-R is Not correct for the Winchester model 94 in 30-30 .
Get Lee C309-170-F , seat and crimp in this boolits crimp groove and carry on !
My model 94 loves this one , feeds and ejects like a champ and a medium heavy roll crimp holds the boolets in place in the magazine tube .
Gary

[ILostMyGoat]

Thanks for all the input guys! I definitely appreciate and will adjust my molds I’m using. Currently I’m just using the crimp that is standard in the 30 WCF RCBS 2 die set, nothing specific or special


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[Kai]

Couldn't agree with you more Kai - it's pretty clear that he needs to use a different boolit - but he also mentions the boolit pushing back into the case. I'm merely posting on my experience as far as crimp used, the use of a dummy round to test feed, chambering, etc While I wouldn't have used that mold for the obvious reason that my own experiences would have told me that the COAL, if seated correctly, would not have worked in my 94s and Marlin - I mentioned how a dummy round can tell a person a lot as well as saving a person a lot of work (and sometimes expense) - something which applies to not only a 30-30 but other calibers of lever guns as well. My interest in the crimp? Pure curiosity - regardless of if the boolit he used is too long of a design - set back of a boolit in any rifle, but in his case a tubular magazine - if loaded to max could be a potential major issue - in any caliber - if by chance it was able to be cycled and chambered and then fired.

But, I've only been doing this for 60 + years so appreciate you educating me on it by pointing out the obvious.

You have a good day!

Yes we all know a good roll crimp is necessary when loading for tube fed guns. The posters issue with crimp is he can't get a decent crimp when seating bullets deep enough to chamber. So pointing out the need for a good crimp is pointless. My day is wonderful thank you!

[Char-Gar]

Use a bullet designed for the 30-30 and roll crimp in the crimp groove.

[Land Owner]

You can still single-load the first round as a 200 gr. boolit.