Failure to feed issue.

[littlejack]

Hey members:
Been having trouble with one of my 9mm pistols. Here a while back, I bought a mould from Tom at Accurate Molds. It is the 35-130A. It weighs 130 grains and is a very accurate bullet in all three of my pistols, a Glock 48, a Sar 2000, and a Sar B6C. The boolit does have a large meplat. The coal is 1.050. I'm having feeding issues in the Sar B6C. I can load the magazine with 10 rounds, and it will fail to feed the first six. I have to drop the magazine, pull back the slide and let the cartridges drop out. This happens with both of the supplied magazines. When the slide strips a round from the magazine, the nose tips up abot 75° and butts into the top sharp edge of the chamber and the base of the cartridge is setting on the front of the follower in the magazine. Seeing as how the last four cartridges seem to feed properly, would there be to much spring tension on the the first six rounds. But, if that was the issue, the pistol would have failure to feed problems with all the other rounds with different bullets, which it does not. It feeds perfectly with all other bullet combinations. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[dverna]

I would try a very slight chamfering on the area of the barrel where the meplat is causing the issue and also try a weaker magazine spring. Try the spring first.

[country gent]

You might be able to slightly adjust the feed lips on the mags a little more parallel to the bore to get better presentation of the round.
RHe reason I suggest this is as the spring tension drops the rounds start to, as the tension drops the rounds sit slightly lower and feed from a slightly shallower arc. As a test put a couple layers of vinyal tape on the inside front of the feed lips and see what happens.It wont last long but will give an idea of the adjustment needed.

[36g]

Feed lips may be a good place to start as well as polishing the feed ramp. If working on the feed ramp on the barrel be very careful NOT to remove too much metal. Polishing with 600 grit wet/dry paper and a dowel or a bit of jewelers rouge on a polishing wheel in a dremel might help a lot.

[Winger Ed.]

I'd look to 'adjusting' the feed lips before I started hacking around much on the gun itself.
It's fairly easy to take metal off, but a real pain to put it back on.
Also, one of the high end powder coatings might help too. It's 'slicker' than plain Lead and might chamber easier.

[littlejack]

I was considering a weaker spring. (Not sure where to get one). For some reason, it seems like magazine spring/follower is not popping the base of the cartridge up soon enough to get in front of the slide, to put the round at more in line with the chamber before the slide pushes against the side of the case head. Oh by the way, when inserting a full magazine and pulling the slide back and release, the cartridge feeds perfectly. This particular boolit combination functions perfectly in the Sar 2000. I field stripped both pistols, and the actions are identical. The B6C slide will reassemble on the 2000, and the 2000 will reassemble on the B6C. The barells and chambers are identical. I sent both barrels to DougGuy and he throated each and some polishing on what needed it. Thanks fellas for all the tips, I will give them a try one by one. The easiest first. I need to buy a feed lip tool.

[littlejack]

The boolits meplat is hitting the top edge of the chamber, and it stops it dead. That's why I'm thinking it's a magazine issue. The cartridge itself is standing too verticle when the jam occurs. The base of the cartridge is not popping up to help with a straighter feed.

[Dusty Bannister]

Is it possible that with your powder charge, your slide is not retracting far enough to allow the round to rise rapidly enough to feed into the chamber? That might be checked by seeing what weight is required to retract the slide fully in each of the Sar handguns.

[35remington]

If it feeds other bullet shapes it is NOT a magazine issue. It is a bullet shape/meplat/overall length issue. The first six do not feed because of the increased angularity of feed occasioned by stacking in what I presume is a single shot magazine. The first rounds out of single stack magazine strike low on the feed ramp and this is exacerbated by short overall lengths and a wide meplat. You yourself are causing the jam.

Do not adjust or file on the magazines or the gun.

Understand, firstly, that the gun is not designed to shoot every bullet type you can find, and that if it works with all other bullet shapes you use that the issue is with your choices, not the gun.

Anytime it is suggested you modify an otherwise functional gun or magazines it is incumbent upon you to lie down until the urge passes and realize it is bullet choice possibly combined with overall length that is the issue. Not the gun or magazines.

[littlejack]

35remington
The magazines are double stack.
What you have posted makes perfect sense to me. Although I really like the boolit shape and design, as it is a bore rider, that does not make it functionable. Thank you for your input, and to the other members as well.

[DougGuy]

Take the magazine out, fully load it, now push down on the front of the round in the top. See how it pops back up. If it's lazy, you need a stronger spring. When a 1911 feeds, it strips a round an sends it into the feed ramp, but the round UNDERNEATH the round being fed, has to push the rim up the breech face and under the extractor hook.

Any time you take a 1911 and push down on the stack in the magazine, and it doesn't rapidly pop back up, you WILL have feeding issues.

If you want a stronger spring, look to ISMI https://www.ismi-gunsprings.com/?product_cat=magazine-springs-1911

[Gtek]

If I read correctly works in two of the three, maybe a comparison of all feed ramps and entry angles? The larger meplat hitting lower and earlier and heading increased angle to roof.
Maybe reduce charge and COAL? Open up lips and let it land a little higher on ramp?

[Rapier]

Suggest you read the NRA review of the SarB6C. You will note it ain't a 1911, nor is it anything else it is similar to a Smith.
https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/review-sar-usa-b6c/

You might try a bit of added adjustment and control on the magazine feed lips and the cartridge OAL. Since your rounds are striking the top of the chamber. They are feeding high, but not too high, unless forced forward

Try this before you do anything, load yourself some dummy cartridges, no powder or primers, just bullets. First adjust OAL and see if the feed is better or worse, slowly, release the slide and watch the bullets feed from the magazine, slowly. Watch closely how the cases feed or fail to do so. If they fail to adjust in OAL to feed, then after watching close, adjust the magazine feed lips with a pair of long needle nose priers. All looking from gun rear to front. If the cartridges feeds left of center, bend the left mag lip inward towards the center, just slightly,. Proper method is to insert the long nose pliers, slightly open, inside the magazine, front to back, then then loosely close on the lip and twist to move the top of the lip in on the example. Takes a good set of tempered pliers, so the pliers do not bend.

If the mag feeds too high, bend both lips in slightly, the closed lips will cause the loaded rounds to feed lower.

[littlejack]

Update:
So a few days ago, I made up some dummy rounds. Some with the Accurate 35-130A (large meplat) and some with Lee rn, and conical nose commercial. Interesting results. The Lee rn and the conical nose bullets feed perfectly by hand, either by pulling back the slide and release, or letting the slide slowly strip one out of the magazine to chamber. Actually, when watching it feed by slowly holding back the slide, the feeding procedure is perfect. Slide comes forward, contacts the rim of the cartridge and pushes it forward to pop the cartridge up under the extractor in line with the chamber, and slides right in.
The 35-130A boolit feeds relatively smooth in both scenarios as well, but not as smooth as the other to boolits because the lower edge of the meplat is hitting lower on the feed ramp than the other two boolits. So, IMO, when the slide is powered back by the fired round and eject the empty, then strip a round from the magazine, the larger melat is hitting the feed ramp hard enough to cause it to bounce off of the feed ramp and bounce up and engage the top edge of the chamber. I can check this scenario net range visit. I can bevel the edges of the meplat on a few boolits and see if they feed or not. Thank you all for your replies and help.

[justindad]

Did you check the response time of the magazine spring, as DougGuy suggested?

[littlejack]

Yes I did. I have two for the B6C, and I checked them both. They seemed a little sluggish with the follower rubbing on the inside of the magazine at the top. But, when a round is in the magazine, the follower moves freely as the magazine widens.The magazines function fine with any of the other rounds I've run through the pistol, commercial hp, full metal jacket rn, cast rnfp, conical nose, rn, tc, no issues at all. I took the magazines apart and checked for any obvious discrepancies. I dismantled the magazine to the 2000. Everything looked good. The 2000 magazine is the same as the B6C magazines, but it is longer. The 2000 mag will fit in the B6C, but not reverse. If the weather clears tomorrow, I will test the 35-130A boolits that I made to have a smaller meplat.

[Winger Ed.]

My Gold Cup was a little finicky with flat nose Lead semi-wadcutters.
Being short, and flat faced was sort of like having 2 strikes against them for feeding.
I polished the feed ramp until it looked like a mirror and that fixed it.

I got a soft cotton cloth wheel for the bench grinder and some medium grit jeweler's rouge.
It was kind of slow going, but that did it for me.

[contender1]

About 4 decades ago, I had a 1911 that wasn't feeding right. My attempts at following the advice of "polishing the feed ramp" and such ended up ruining a barrel.

Now,, I prefer to NOT screw with the gun until I've exhausted all other possible things I can. Magazines, different bullets, are all cheaper than the gun.

[44MAG#1]

This probably a stupid question, have you tried going shorter with OAL?

[littlejack]

The feed ramp is very smooth as it is. I did remove the extractor and polished the face of the breach, as the rounds were dragging on a machining mark.
I started at a c.o.l of 1.075. Then set the c.o.l back to 1.050. This put the case at the transition of the top driving band and the bore riding section. If I seat any deeper, the edge of the case will be hanging out in front of the top driving band.

[Winger Ed.]

About 4 decades ago, I had a 1911 that wasn't feeding right. My attempts at following the advice of "polishing the feed ramp" and such ended up ruining a barrel.

I've seen a couple of them done that way.

One looked like someone had attacked it with a 1" counter sink drill bit.
The other looked like someone had carved on it in the dark with one of those rotary whetstones you use to sharpen a chain saw.

[44MAG#1]

The feed ramp is very smooth as it is. I did remove the extractor and polished the face of the breach, as the rounds were dragging on a machining mark.
I started at a c.o.l of 1.075. Then set the c.o.l back to 1.050. This put the case at the transition of the top driving band and the bore riding section. If I seat any deeper, the edge of the case will be hanging out in front of the top driving band.

Well, have you tried it?

[littlejack]

Going to the range today. Will post results.

[littlejack]

Range report.
The cartridges definately fed better with the edges of the meplat beveled, but there were still failures to feed. Same scenario, the cartridge was still bouncing upward, and is driven into the top edge of the chamber. The base of the case is setting on top of the follower, with the slide pushing it against the feed ramp. I fired 25 rounds of round nose with the same powder charge, and they fed flawlessly. I think I'll be sticking with any of the rn, rnfp, tc or cn boolits. They all function just fine. That will reduce the level of blood pressure at the shootin bench.
Thanks to all for your input.

[TomAM]

One issue that is sometimes not readily apparent;
The tapered or rounded front of double stack magazines leave limited room for large meplats. The symptoms you describe, where the first few rounds of a fully loaded magazine fail to feed, are consistent with this issue.
The noses of the lower rounds are wedged together, impeding the mag spring from doing it's job. The top rounds are not pressed against the mag lips properly and without that guidance they are free to nose up, causing a jamb.

[44MAG#1]

Try seating deeper. Cut the charge weight though.
Until it is tried you will never know.

[35remington]

Can you go longer with OAL? Try that. The jams you have occurring are most associated with overly short OAL and wide meplats. Shorter means a lower feed ramp strike which is the root of the problem.

[littlejack]

Yesterday, I cast up another batch of the boolits in question. This coming week, I will exaggerate a shorter and longer seating depth, and give them a try. Be beck with a range report.

[44MAG#1]

I shoot large Meplat bullet quite often. There is a narrow OAL they will work. If it is seated out too far the larger Meplat hits the feed ramp too soon and tries to raise the cartridge in the magazine too soon for proper release of the lips.
Smaller meplats hit it less soon and can be seated out more as witness the bullets I use at 147 grain seated out to to over 1.100"
My bullets have a .200" Meplat like the ones used by Underwood.
Plus a more gentle slope to the nose.
Of course I don't know what I am talking about.

[littlejack]

44
Thank you for the information. I'm workin on it.

[44MAG#1]

44
Thank you for the information. I'm workin on it.

I am probably wrong. But I have found the wide nose bullets hit the feed ramp tooooooo sooooooooon. In both the 9 MM and the 45 Auto.
So I subscribe to Occam Razor theory. Try the simplest things first then if that doesn't work try the next most complicated on the check list
Plus I crimp both calibers heavier than most. A smoother transition.
BTW I'll add this. It is probably the consensus on here that I am wrong on 99 percent of anything I say.
It is up to you.

[justindad]

It is probably the consensus on here that I am wrong on 99 percent of anything I say.

I have found that the more reliable information comes from those with humility, who manage the risks involved with being wrong. Folks with great confidence have fewer successes and more excuses.

[littlejack]

Another range update:
Loaded up two boxes of 9mm last evening with the boolit causing the failures to feed (Accurate 35-130A). Two different seating depths. One box were seated to1.020. This is the shortest I have seated these boolits. The mouth of the case hangs over the top driving band .020 +/-.
The other 50 rounds were seated long, with the mouth of the case just covering the top of the grease groove @1.090.
There was really no difference between the way either of the rounds fed. They were still behaving as they have since the beginning. The boolits were jumping up and hitting the upper edge of the chamber, making it impossible to slide in. I did check the inside of the magazine when multiple rounds had been put in. With a flashlight, I was able to look down into the magazine and see that there was clearence between the boolit and magazine wall.
So, I've gave it my best shot (punn) with this particular design of boolit. I'm going to retire this mould, and purchase one that the boolit is not known to have feeding issues. I do believe the issue with this design, is the fact that it has too wide of a meplat. Better luck next time.
Again, thanks to members helping by making suggestions.

[44MAG#1]

The only bullet mold I would consider getting would be this one.
https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=35-146A. But that is just me.
It has a gentle ogive plus a .250" Meplat.

[littlejack]

I like a lighter weight. That bullet design you reccomended, has a meplat the same diameter (within .005) as the one I've been trying to get to feed for the last couple months. Although the bullet design does have an overall different profile, I'm not going to buy another bullet mould that casts a boolit with the wide meplat.

[44MAG#1]

I load a 147 grain with a .200-.205 Meplat and load it to 1.140 OAL.
So far so good. I like a heavier bullet myself.

[justindad]

... Oh by the way, when inserting a full magazine and pulling the slide back and release, the cartridge feeds perfectly.
You may have an issue with a mismatch between your recoil spring and your charge weight. If you rack the slide to cycle every bullet, are there any jams? If not, you might need to change your load. Do you have a Chronograph?

[littlejack]

Yes, I have a chronograph. On the 14th, I chronied two loads with the boolit in question. I've been using Hodgdon CFE Pistol. With 4.6 grains, velocity is 1058 fps. With 4.8 grains, velocity is 1084 fps. I would have thought that with .3 more powder, there would have been a wider velocity spread.
50 of the rounds I loaded for yesterday, were dropped to 4.3 grains to allow for seating the boolits deeper. I did not chrony these loads. I may try 4.0 grains with the boolit seated not as deep, and see if the slide speed changes anything.

[justindad]

What is your barrel length, what are the min & max charges & velocities in your published load data, what barrel length is used in the published data?, how does the bullet in your data differ from yours (Cu vs Pb, lube groove qty, bullet length & weight), and what is the OAL in your book data?