44wcf issues in pistol

[Babbott213]

So I’ve been loading 44wcf for sometime now, but I’ve always loaded for my old Winchester Model 1873 which is 144 years old. I also load for a 130 year old Winchester 73 as well and so far to date, no issue.

Now I have bought a new Cimarron MP523 in 44wcf and the black powder rounds that I have loaded will not go all the way into the cylinder. The head of the case sticks up about a 1/4 inch I guess. My bullets are sized to .429” and the odd thing is, I have loaded .429” bullets for this gun in smokeless powder before with no issues. Now I’m loading black powder and now I have a issue.

I think that with the compressing of the powder, that it’s expanding the neck of the case. I’m using a compression die on 35 grains of 2F and compressing the powder to where the bullet just barely compresses it. Seating goes well as well as crimping.

So I took one of the bullets and eased it into my resizing die and that bullet drops into the cylinder with ease.

Any thoughts or ideas on this issue? Anyone ran into this issue before with this type pistol? I’m not sure if running the loaded shells through my sizing die is a good idea or not either.


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[Thundermaker]

Try compressing the powder until the bullet just sits on top of it at the desired OAL. That little bit of compression you're doing with the bullet may be compressing the bullet instead, which will increase the diameter.

[HWooldridge]

I think you answered your own question. A pure, or close to pure lead bullet upsets pretty easily in a typical loading press, so you normally can’t use the bullet to compress the BP. Compress in a separate operation then seat the bullet afterwards.

[john.k]

The cases are also very thin ,and compressing powder by any means may expand the case,if slightly too much force is used.

[Babbott213]

Ok, I have the issue figured out now. Some grease pencil and a lot of measuring cases from top to bottom on many cases (Black and Smokeless), the issue has been found and resolved. It was just a little oversight in the crimp that didn’t pose a problem in the lever actions, but definitely did in the cylinder of the revolver. Thanks Everyone!!


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[Outpost75]

Redding Profile Crimp mitigates this issue. Lee FCD may or may not. Less reliable.

[Babbott213]

Redding Profile Crimp mitigates this issue. Lee FCD may or may not. Less reliable.

Yeah the Lee FCD is putting a slight bulge in the case that’s only .001” too big. For now I’m just placing each round in the press and just giving the neck a slight kiss with the resizing die. Just enough to smooth the bulge around the crimp. After that, each one drops down into the cylinder with ease. I’ll have to look into that Redding Profile Crimp. That or see if I can change how this Lee FCD crimps. Im not going with a heavy crimp either.


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[Abert Rim]

I'm using the Lee FCD, too, but in an Uberti 73. So far zero issues with sizing/chambering. Bet you are having fun with that Cimarron!

[DougGuy]

You might be trying to force a boolit into the throats that is simply bigger than the throat. What do the throats on your cylinder measure?

Very common to have throats anywhere from .425" to .427" because gun makers want to preserve history I guess, no other good reason that I can see putting a cylinder with tight throats behind a .429" or .430" barrel.

The 44-40 has another issue as well to contend with, chamber necks are most commonly .445" so you subtract 2x case wall thickness (.007" x 2 = .014") from the neck diameter and you come up with .431" left over which is the maximum diameter boolit that will fit in the necks once seated and crimped in the case.

Fwiw, SAAMI specs for the cartridge call for a .427" boolit, and .443" necks. SAAMI chamber drawing for a RIFLE call for .4436" chamber diameter at the case mouth.

About the easiest solution is have throats honed to .4305" and you can use .430" boolits successfully.

[mack2]

Redding Profile Crimp mitigates this issue. Lee FCD may or may not. Less reliable.

I will second this, Redding Profile Crimp dies are well worth the cost with 44wcf and 38wcf. I also use one with a very tight chambered Ruger Old Model 41 mag.

[Larry Gibson]

If you are seating crimping at the same time that could be the cause of the bulge also. If so, try seating and crimping in two different steps.

[Wayne Smith]

I have three Uberti 44-40 guns, two revolvers and a Uberti 1874 Win. and my reloads fit two of the three. Uberti is not consistent in in making 44-40 chambers. One of my revolvers is much tighter than the other one. I think I need to send that cylinder to Doug.

[Tall]

I have a Cimarron SAA in 44 WCF. Mine did not like reloads with .429" bullets. Once I began using .427" bullets for my reloads it was happy and accurate.

These are awesome:
https://www.acmebullet.com/Bullets/44-40/44-40-200RNFP-S427

[Babbott213]

I have a Cimarron SAA in 44 WCF. Mine did not like reloads with .429" bullets. Once I began using .427" bullets for my reloads it was happy and accurate.

These are awesome:
https://www.acmebullet.com/Bullets/44-40/44-40-200RNFP-S427

It’s all good now. All of them slide right in on both revolvers. [emoji106]


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[Cast10]

Same in the 32/20 revolver I have. Outpost is right. I experienced the same thing with my first loads. When you bell the mouth and use an expander for oversized lead boolits, the expander has to go pretty far down the case to make it easy to seat the cast bullet. Once the bullet is seated to proper depth/position, I then use the Lee FCD to ‘squeeze’ the case mouth back down. Adjust it a it tighter until the bullet drops in. If you feel it’s too tight, back off on the bell/expander depth a bit. Some have said when you use the Lee FCD you can swage the bullet down. In the case where you have a crimp ring, your crimping below that crimp ring, which is smaller than the bearing surface of the bullet anyway. Best of luck to ya.