45 cowboy special in N frame smith

[RyanJames170]

I was looking to see what people are using for data in 45 cowboy special for heavy bullets 230-260gr not really looking for powder puff loads.

[M-Tecs]

For heavier loads the 45 Colt case is a better option. The 45 ACP or 45AR loads are interchangeable with the 45CS.

[racepres]

Seems a waste of an N frame... but... You would have Zero Worries about strength!!!

[M-Tecs]

The N frame strength of the frame is not the issue. Cylinder thickness over the cylinders is.

https://www.smithandwessonforums.com/threads/625-6-45-colt-mountain-gun-loads.195991/

https://www.johnlinebaughcustomsixguns.com/writings

[jreidthompson1]

https://web.archive.org/web/20180525063939/http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=12

John Linebaugh on the model 25 with strength and load data

"It may surprise many but the cylinder on the S&W .45 Colt is the same diameter as the Ruger Blackhawk. The webs (between chambers) and outside chamber wall are also the same. So basically the Ruger and S&W cylinders are identical in strength and dimension. We recommend handloads for the Rugers single action in .45 Colt caliber to 32,000 PSI levels.

While the S&W will take these loads safely such loads will greatly shorten the life of your gun. The frames on S&W are not heat treated thus are pretty soft. With loads that exceed what the gun can comfortably handle the frame stretches immediately lengthwise and then springs back. This all causes battering and soon your gun has excessive endshake. I don't know how long it takes to wreck a N frame S&W with heavy handloads but Jeff Cooper printed one time he saw a model 29 go out in the realm of 1,000 hot handloads if I remember correctly. I would agree that serious damage could be done in this amount of shooting with too heavy a handload."

http://www.reinfjord.net/art/Gun%20Notes%20John%20Linebaugh.pdf

Also has a section on the N frame


Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk

[Kosh75287]

I used 4.0/Bullseye/200 gr. LSWC as a mild falling plate load in .45 ACP. I discovered, by accident, that the same load with a 230 gr. LRN makes for a nice "stepped up" load for most purposes. It doesn't duplicate factory ball and (probably) doesn't make major level for USPSA nor IDPA purposes, but it should work well for most other purposes.
Another load that works similarly is 5.8/Unique/230 LRN. Substituting the 230 gr. LRN with the 230 gr. TC projectile sacrifices nothing in terms of accuracy nor feeding reliability.

[M-Tecs]

"It may surprise many but the cylinder on the S&W .45 Colt is the same diameter as the Ruger Blackhawk. The webs (between chambers) and outside chamber wall are also the same. So basically the Ruger and S&W cylinders are identical in strength and dimension. We recommend handloads for the Rugers single action in .45 Colt caliber to 32,000 PSI levels

My S&W 25-5 is .031" smaller than my 45 Colt Blackhawks???? Also the 6-shot S&W revolvers have the cylinder stop recesss centered over the chamber. That area is surprisingly thin on my S&W 25-5 at .024". The Ruger BH recess is offset and thicker, but I have never measured them.

John Linebaugh lists the S&W M25s as 25K PSI revolvers for repeated loadings. He lists the Blackhawks as 32K PSI load revolvers for repeated loadings.

[racepres]

https://web.archive.org/web/20180525063939/http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=12



While the S&W will take these loads safely such loads will greatly shorten the life of your gun. The frames on S&W are not heat treated thus are pretty soft.

http://www.reinfjord.net/art/Gun%20Notes%20John%20Linebaugh.pdf

Also has a section on the N frame


Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk

I guess In my Ignorance, I thought S&W s have All been heat treated since the post war period...
learning I guess...

[Rockindaddy]

My shooten buddy has a Ruger Blackhawk in 45 Colt. He shoots heavy 45 cal bullets and refers to 44 Mag load data. He has been shooting it for 30 years. The gun is still tight and in time. Don't know about an N frame. Some of the Smith and Wesson custom shop 44's come with unfluted cylinders for weight and strength.

[DougGuy]

Some of the Smith and Wesson custom shop 44's come with unfluted cylinders for weight and strength.

That's to get your money. Under the bolt cuppets located exactly center of the chambers, cylinder wall thickness is still the same weak point no matter if the cylinder is fluted or unfluted.

[RyanJames170]

I kind of forgot to add this in, writing fourm posts while on horse back can be difficult lol,
The revolver in question all though in pretty much new shape has altered 455 webley chambers that accept what I have concluded is home brew 45 cowboy specials, I though 45 AR but they don’t fit but shortened to 45 cowboy special brass dose fit quite well.

[rintinglen]

I would restrict that gun in particular to 45AR loads. To the best of my knowledge, S&W hasn't made a .455 revolver since before the end of WW I, and those were not heat treated. I would load it with cast boolits and modest charges of fast to medium powders and call it good.

Back in the early 80's I had a similar gun, a British contract piece that wouldn't chamber a 45 Colt cartridge but wouldn't let the cylinder close on an 45 Auto Rim cartridge. I went down to my favorite gun shop, Mathews and Son and discussed it with the late George Mathews, one of the great unsung, old gunsmiths. He sold me a 45 ACP trim die and told me to run my 45 colts into that, chop 'em off with a hacksaw, then file them smooth. For a load, he told me "with a 250 grain bullet like you've got there, 4.0 grains of Bullseye or Red Dot, 5.0 grains of Unique. Don't worry about expansion, it's already a .45." Good advice. I have followed it ever since with those old Colt's and Smith's.

[lar45]

The Cowboy 45 Special is essentially a 45acp case with a 45 Colt rim and uses 45acp load data. There should be lots of published data for the acp. I have a small 45 cal double barreled pistol that accepts 45 Special cases.

[ranchman]

Ryan,

I shoot 6.5gr Unique with the RCBS 230cm in cowboy special brass for 950fps through a 5.5" Colt. Goes 1000fps through a 7.5" barrel. And I understand that to be a standard pressure load going by ACP numbers.

A 248gr SWC Keith bullet out of my NOE mould that's a bullet inbetween the 454423/454424 bullet over that same 6.5gr Unique shoots 933fps average out of the mentioned Colt above ... it also is standard pressure or just under based off ACP pressures.

Our own Larry Gibson pressure tested the 6.5gr Unique loads over the -424 bullet and noted it to be standard pressure. He may chime in. But that is where I got my numbers from with where to set my limits when I started down the heavier cowboy special path myself. The data crosses back n forth between it, the ACP, and AR all the same. Case capacity-wise, I've found my acp brass to be roughly 20-thou less case space than the cowboy special, so theoretically the pressures of that 6.5gr unique load will actually be a faint bit less than standard if a guy got right scientific with the facts.

You mention riding a horse and making forum posts... these 2 loads are my own ranch & pasture loads on my place when that particular single action Colt is with me. I wanted a power level equal to the original blackpowder 45colt that shot 40gr-black, and I wanted it through a short cut 45 chamber instead of the 45colt. These 2 loads were where I ended up. Full equivalent to the original 45colt/40grains of black load, but smokeless. And through a standard pressure ACP cylinder with acp or cowboy special brass. Neat arrangement.

[rintinglen]

Let me reiterate that these guns were not designed nor proofed for 45 ACP loads. They were made for the .455 British service round. They were proofed (by the Brits) for 6 long tons, roughly 13,200 psi, not the 19,000 plus of the 45 ACP. Lyman's 45 Auto Rim loads in the 4th edition as well as the third reflect this, and max loads are less than those for the 45 ACP with identical boolits. Use those lighter loads.

[M-Tecs]

I kind of forgot to add this in, writing fourm posts while on horse back can be difficult lol,
The revolver in question all though in pretty much new shape has altered 455 webley chambers that accept what I have concluded is home brew 45 cowboy specials, I though 45 AR but they don’t fit but shortened to 45 cowboy special brass dose fit quite well.

Is it a Hand Ejector Second Model or a 1917?

https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/a-look-back-at-the-smith-wesson-model-1917/

[RyanJames170]

Most definitely a hand ejector second model, 6.5” barrel and British markings have it away. Really nice pistol honestly, I think it was sent off to someone and rebuilt, as it’s got pretty good lock up and is been refinished, along with the modification to accept the 45 colt rim, how ever it will not accept 45 AR brass.

[rintinglen]

Those 455's were either repurposed triple locks or second model Hand Ejectors. Those triple locks are very rare; less than 6500 were made, possibly even less, and those went to war in 1915. How many survived to wars end, only God knows.

Reportedly, the British found the triple lock too sensitive to dirt (and more likely too expensive) and requested that the underlug be removed from the barrel along with the crane lock. This simplified production and lowered costs. There were over 70,000 of the 2nd models made, from 1916 to 1917. Production ceased in 1917 when the U.S. Government ordered the 1917 45 ACP Revolvers in quantity. It was at the insistence of the U. S. Army that S&W began heat treating cylinders. Colt had earlier started (at the Army's instigation) heat treating cylinders for the Model 1909 45 Revolvers.

The point of all this history is that Pre 1917 N-frame Smith's should not be hot loaded. The cylinders were not heat treated. The Cylinder walls at the locking notch are too thin (and too weak) to withstand repeated over pressure events without dimpling (or heaven forfend, rupturing), especially on the 455's. If you are fortunate enough to have one of these 100+ year old pieces of Great War history, treat them as you would a break-top Webley. Restrict their diet to <14,000 psi loads and save them for the next generation to shoot and enjoy.

[ranchman]

My post #14 was made with stronger guns in mind, certified for 21,000psi ACP pressures. The original post said n-frame and I assumed the n frames being done as mag's and modern chamberings. So keep that point in mind.

I missed the later post stating the OP's gun was an old, modified 455. That changes pressure ratings for sure. Guy needs to go by manufacturer pressure ratings per.gun above all else.

[RyanJames170]

My post #14 was made with stronger guns in mind, certified for 21,000psi ACP pressures. The original post said n-frame and I assumed the n frames being done as mag's and modern chamberings. So keep that point in mind.

I missed the later post stating the OP's gun was an old, modified 455. That changes pressure ratings for sure. Guy needs to go by manufacturer pressure ratings per.gun above all else.

I will keep your load in mind for a 45 colt SAA I plan on getting in the future,
The only load I have put threw the gun that might be a bit much was a 200gr load other wise the 255gr load is a starting load for 45ACP jacketed bullets.

I will need to have a look in my manual and see what 45 ACP/AR show for pressure and keep the loads in the 13,000-14,000 psi, I imagine 45 colt pressure would be ok for it.

[RyanJames170]

I will keep your load in mind for a 45 colt SAA I plan on getting in the future,
The only load I have put threw the gun that might be a bit much was a 200gr load other wise the 255gr load is a starting load for 45ACP jacketed bullets.

I will need to have a look in my manual and see what 45 ACP/AR show for pressure and keep the loads in the 13,000-14,000 psi, I imagine 45 colt pressure would be ok for it.

i did some looking when i got home and my load for the 200grain bullets is not much over 13,000 PSI, something like 14500 so i will back it back .2 grains as it is really just a plinking load, the 260grain one was more of intrest to me as the 260grain bullet would have better penetrations

[ddixie884]

Larry tested 5gr of Herco under a machine cast 255swcbb in .45acp at 1.213 which is case mouth at crimp groove the psi was 13.500.......

[StrawHat]

The S&W 455 Hand Ejector was made before the US entered WWI and is not heat treated in any way. My thoughts are to find a decent load in 455 and duplicate it in your revolver.

Your revolver is not now, nor was it ever intended to be a 45 long Colt.

Kevin

[RyanJames170]

The S&W 455 Hand Ejector was made before the US entered WWI and is not heat treated in any way. My thoughts are to find a decent load in 455 and duplicate it in your revolver.

Your revolver is not now, nor was it ever intended to be a 45 long Colt.

Kevin

Honestly opening up the chambers upto 45 long colt would make it a lot easier to load for along with lowering the working pressures as standard 45 colt loads are 14,000 psi at max and start in the 6-9,000 psi now I don’t know if the “bolt thrust” would be like ie the thrust of the cartridge case going backwards,

[Larry Gibson]

Starline makes 45 Cowboy cases so using those with .454 soft cast bullets loaded to target level ACP loads should work fine. I wouldn't open it up to 45 Colt dimensions as that pose other problems. However, you might consider the 45 Scofield cartridge case. There's also low spi cowboy action loads for that case. Starline makes them also.

Loading can be done with the 45 Cowboy and the 45 Schofield with 45 ACP dies easy enough. With low level loads There's probably no need to FL size the cases. Back the FL sizer out to size the case just to the base of the seated bullet. Or, get an older steel FL RCBS sizer for the 45 Colt as it does not size the case heads back down but leaves a taper to the case. Works fine with .454 bullets.

Also, with the low level loads there is no need to roll crimp the case mouths. A standard taper crimp as used on the 45 ACP will work fine. The RCBS steel FL sizer backed out will also put an excellent taper crimp on the loaded cartridge.

[StrawHat]

Honestly opening up the chambers upto 45 long colt would make it a lot easier to load for along with lowering the working pressures as standard 45 colt loads are 14,000 psi at max and start in the 6-9,000 psi now I don’t know if the “bolt thrust” would be like ie the thrust of the cartridge case going backwards,


I was looking to see what people are using for data in 45 cowboy special for heavy bullets 230-260gr not really looking for powder puff loads.


It’s your revolver, do as you see fit.

Kevin