I don't understand hardness

[Stopsign32v]

Ok I guess here is the reality, I don't understand how to read hardness and how to get there. I have the LEE hardness tester and I can understand that just fine. But when someone says they use 20:1 or something else I don't understand what that means. Or how they got to that conclusion.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/P3MpHstha0s/maxresdefault.jpg


So for example I know it is a mixture of lead to something. So lets just say I have a melting pot of pure lead, that would be 100:0 (just example, bear with me for the question). Where I get lost is I do not cast too often. So my pot last was mixed for something, lets say 45acp which I mixed x/y/z to make a hardness for 45acp. Assuming I don't keep notes and don't remember what my pot mixture is right now, how do I keep up? This is the part of casting which confuses me. Am I overthinking it? I have 2 pots, 1 is for pure 100% lead and the other is just a whatever I feel like.

[Mk42gunner]

Maybe a slight bit of overthinking, but it did lead you to ask the question.

20:1 is normally 20 parts lead to one part tin. 16:1, 30:1, similarly lead to tin. These are also called binary (two component) mixtures.

Where it can get real confusing is when antimony is added to the mix in varying ratios. 90-5-5, lead antimony tin.

When lead based wheelweights, a very useful alloy of varying composition, were readily available, that is what I normally used. Now they are getting harder to find cheap and I am almost out of my stash.

My bunch of WW tested at 12.5 BHN with a Lee tester. I seldom saw any need for anything harder for general plinking, but I can see the need for softer alloys for BP or hunting with handguns. As I get older and more experienced, I like the softer alloys.

Hope this helps,

Robert

[daengmei]

20 to 1

take 20 ounces of something
add 1 ounce of something else

that is a ratio of 20:1

There are many others who know how to help with the ingredients for making your bullets. Me, well I'm just about confused all the time.

[charlie b]

You have to know where you start to get a specific alloy.

Read this:
http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

Short answer is, you can reach a specific hardness in a couple of ways. For example, an alloy with a hardness of 16bhn is Lyman #2 (90/5/5). But, Hardball (92/2/6) is also 16bhn (data from Rotometals). And then there is heat treating, which can take something like wheel weight alloy and make it harder. You can also heat treat the Lyman and Hardball alloys.

So, an unknown alloy you can find the hardness, but, it won't tell you the exact content. You can add other stuff to change the alloy hardness, such as more lead to make is softer, more tin or antimony to make it harder (up to a point). Or simply try heat treating it so see where it ends up. You still won't know what alloy you have but you'll know how hard it is.

If you really want to know what you have, then you'll have to empty out your "whatever" pot and start with a known alloy and add to it ingots that you know the alloy.

Last thought. If you are just making bullets for plinking the alloy doesn't mean that much. Some kind of lead with some tin and it will shoot fine. If you plan on pushing limits with velocity you need to know what you have.

[littlejack]

The 20:1 is 20 parts pure lead, and the 1 is 1 part tin. There are a lot of members here that mix their alloys with different amounts of lead/tin/antimony. Those are the three major metals it takes to make whatever alloy they are wanting. Different parts of these three metals gives them the hardness they want for different shooting applications. Antimony is usually found in other alloys that are already mixed. ie linotype or ??? I cast for years using only clip on wheel weights. Then I started adding some tin to help bullet fillout in the mould. Usually about 2%. If you will look up Glen Frixell, he has the information on the different amounts of metals to make different alloys.

[HWooldridge]

This is why I only worry about the Brinell number, especially with scrap lead. I’ll melt a batch, cast a few bullets then take a hardness reading (I also use the Lee tester). I stamp the ingots with the number and store the ingots for later use.

[Shanghai Jack]

Ok I guess here is the reality, I don't understand how to read hardness and how to get there. I have the LEE hardness tester and I can understand that just fine. But when someone says they use 20:1 or something else I don't understand what that means. Or how they got to that conclusion.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/P3MpHstha0s/maxresdefault.jpg


So for example I know it is a mixture of lead to something. So lets just say I have a melting pot of pure lead, that would be 100:0 (just example, bear with me for the question). Where I get lost is I do not cast too often. So my pot last was mixed for something, lets say 45acp which I mixed x/y/z to make a hardness for 45acp. Assuming I don't keep notes and don't remember what my pot mixture is right now, how do I keep up? This is the part of casting which confuses me. Am I overthinking it? I have 2 pots, 1 is for pure 100% lead and the other is just a whatever I feel like.

If there are two numbers without percent signs then its usually
20 to x = 20 parts lead, x parts tin
If there are three numbers (without percent signs) they are usually in this order
20 to x to y = 20 parts lead, x parts tin, y parts antimony

It can get confusing when you start bouncing back and forth between parts and percentages.
20 to 1 = 20 parts lead to 1 part tin = 95% Lead, 5% Tin = hardness approx 10
30 to 1 = 30 parts lead to 1 part tin = 97% Lead, 3% Tin = hardness approx 9
Linotype alloy = 21 parts lead, 3 parts antimony, 1 part tin = 4% tin, 12% antimony and 84% lead = hardness approx 22
Lyman Number 2 alloy is 90% Lead, 5% Tin, 5% Antimony It has a hardness of approximately 11-12.

Here are some recipes:
http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletAlloy.htm#alloyrecipes
Here is an alloy calculator:
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?105952-Lead-alloy-calculators

Repeatability, if you're not taking notes or testing what goes in the pot is problematic. If your trying to have a large amount of the same hardness alloy without measuring or testing- melt in LARGE quantities. That way whatever you have is uniform.

[Willie T]

Use masking tape and a sharpie and put a note what you left inside on your pot. Takes all of 15 seconds. Weigh your pot empty. Only takes one time. Before you plug it in weigh the pot with its contents if you want to alter the alloy. Takes 15 seconds. For an additional 30 seconds to each casting session you can start with a known quantity of a known alloy. Easy peasy. Then you can alloy according to the purpose of what you plan to cast.
Willie

[high standard 40]

What I do, that works for me, if I am going to leave alloy in the pot after a casting session I put a small piece of masking tape on the base and note what the alloy is. If not, I'll drain the pot into ingot molds. I keep my different alloys in separate marked containers. The above post with the link to the lasc web page is a good read.

[Harter66]

20:1 also results in 21 units not 1 unit in 20 so it's close to 5% and for gross application the 4.8?? vs 5% probably won't matter .

The problem with hitting a hardness number is this , there's 20 ways to get to a 16 BHN and at least one of them will result in a bullet that acts like a grenade , AP , or cool bubble gum on impact. That's great because I want a 16bhn for a 222 that doesn't exit or shotgun the off side of a coyote . I also want a 16 BHN for a 275 Rigby and 25-06' that will exit 36" of Tx hog at .420-.500 dia . Every once in a while it's just cool to poke a caliber hole through a steel plate because you can .

Stuff gets even weirder when you have 95/2/2/1 lead tin antimony and copper in solution for your 16 BHN because now it acts like a 20bhn in the barrel and a 14 on impact . It's great if you intend to head shoot hogs with under 32 cal or shoot the on side shoulder . It takes over 24" of water , 3" of foam and 1/2 plywood to stop it , 24" of pithy pine log won't get it either at a balmy 2100 fps .....

[racepres]

If there is Alloy in my pot after a session...it is Soft, for Fun/plinking/unknown, uncaring Hardness...prolly soft. If it is in a Muffin tin... it was put there after a session of casting hunting Boolits...if (big word) If I required more than those 2 alloys...I guess I would need to label my Ingots/muffins!!!and empty the darn pot every time...

[dverna]

20:1 does not mean 95% lead and 5% tin....but I am anal and understand math

20 lbs of lead and I part of tin produces 21 lbs of alloy. 1 part of stuff in 21 parts is 4.76 %. It does not matter in terms of alloy performance, but it is not 5% as most people think.

Fortunately, casting is not rocket science. Almost any crap you have in the pot will make decent bullets for .45 ACP. IMO measuring hardness is a waste of time. I have never checked hardness in 50+ years of using cast bullets.

Achieving the same hardness using just tin or a mix of tin and antimony will yield an alloy that performs differently. Depending on what you add to a mystery alloy, the same hardness will not yield the same expansion batch to batch.

SB is cheaper than Sn and that is why commercial alloys are high in SB. If you want a harder bullet and expansion is not needed (like the bullets we shoot to plink and punch paper with), get your hardness with adding alloys high in Sb. Save your Sn for hunting and self defense bullets. Any Sn over 2% is waste of money for plinking.

If you are not prepared to keep records, you may have a few bumps in the road depending on your goals. I suggest keeping records for a couple of months to see if it helps make casting easier and produces better bullets.

[Stopsign32v]

Fortunately, casting is not rocket science. Almost any crap you have in the pot will make decent bullets for .45 ACP. IMO measuring hardness is a waste of time. I have never checked hardness in 50+ years of using cast bullets.

Well reason I ask is because I just ordered this and plan to mold for self defense. https://www.mp-molds.com/product/360-640-hollow-point-4-cavity-plain-base-mold/ So proper expansion will be needed.




If you are not prepared to keep records, you may have a few bumps in the road depending on your goals. I suggest keeping records for a couple of months to see if it helps make casting easier and produces better bullets.

This I agree with. I mold in phases and do not do it regularly so a lot of information I forget or I come across molds I have and end up having to back track to even remember what purpose I had to purchase the mold. So I was telling my wife earlier this week that I need a note book to jot down notes.

[mehavey]

...plan to mold for self defense. ... proper expansion will be needed.
You're not going to get much (if any) expansion unless you're running very soft alloy.
... and your pressure/velocity (and just plain functioning) are going to play against that softness.

What are you going to be shooting this out of?



BTW: Start a notebook. You'll be glad you did.

[Bazoo]

Having an anything and everything scrap alloy is okay, just keep it as that. When you want to run pure, or pure with a specific amount of tin, then you make that and use it, cast up however much you want and then pour it into ingots if you think you'll be using it again at some point. When the ingots are cool and you go to store them, the way I do it, is to put a piece of cardboard under the top ingot with a sharpie note as to alloy. Course I don't have but 3-4 alloys at any given time. I also use a cardboard note for my pot so I can remember what's in it from one time to the next.

Are you over thinking it? No. I don't reckon a man can overthink something as critical as ammo.

[Stopsign32v]

You're not going to get much (if any) expansion unless you're running very soft alloy.
... and your pressure/velocity (and just plain functioning) are going to play against that softness.

What are you going to be shooting this out of?



BTW: Start a notebook. You'll be glad you did.


My daily carry

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52802974976_02208dcbe8_b.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/gp/113193676@N08/f4X6C5L5TF)

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52803422233_a4d6be04d2_b.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/gp/113193676@N08/9479G1H77Z)

[Stopsign32v]

Having an anything and everything scrap alloy is okay, just keep it as that.

I have 2 typed of lead to choose from. I have "clip on WW" that I got off here. And I have pure lead which mainly I use for black powder.

[Willie T]

As mentioned keep notes. I have the Lee hardness tester. The ammunition I make since purchasing it is no better or worse since purchasing it. Keeping notes of what you alloy and it’s characteristics will give more clarity to what you do as a caster and give you the ability to repeat what you like.

For home defensive handgun ammunition 20 parts lead to one part tin is a good place to start and will yield an alloy that expands well at handgun velocity. To alloy it, that is 10 pounds of pure lead to 8 ounces of tin. Or 9 1/2pounds of pure lead to one pound of 50/50 solder. Or 10 pounds of pure lead to 8 ounces of pewter.
Willie

[MT Gianni]

So my pot last was mixed for something, lets say 45acp which I mixed x/y/z to make a hardness for 45acp. Assuming I don't keep notes and don't remember what my pot mixture is right now, how do I keep up? This is the part of casting which confuses me. Am I overthinking it? I have 2 pots, 1 is for pure 100% lead and the other is just a whatever I feel like.

When you're done casting and your pot has solidified, write on it with a marker what your alloy was. Option 2 is to scratch it in with a screwdriver.

[dtknowles]

When I am casting ingots, I cast a few bullets of the same alloy and check the just cast hardness and mark it on the ingots.

If I make a pot of alloy that is not all from one batch of ingots I usually have an idea of what the new alloy is but only to a degree. I might have made it harder (added linotype) or softer (added pure) since I only knew the hardness of the alloy and not its composition, I can't be sure of the hardness of the new alloy but I can guess pretty close.

If you have pure and COWW you can easily make a new alloy that will be very good for a 45 ACP just mix them 50/50. Half pure and half COWW. You will have a BHN of about 9. Hard enough to not cause leading and soft enough to expand.

Tim

[GregLaROCHE]

Just to confuse you more, there is a difference between hardness and toughness. That’s why sometimes copper is added to the alloy.

[parkerhale1200]

My thoughts:
When i was a young boy, my father and my uncle told me this:
If you have lead smering in your barrel, it is to soft or to fast or to low on grease.
Lets stick to the first one, to soft.
Add antimony or bismuth or copper.
When the mold does not fill out, you need tin to get the surface tension lower.
It also helps to let the metals mix better.

It is very difficult to get your alloy harder, but o so easy to get it to soft.

30 years later i bought a bhn tester of lbt.
I still dont get it (-:

The only reason i use it is to check if my batch is up to the speed for what i want.
I use range lead, i make batches per 100kg!/200 pond.(how is a other story)

If the flow is not to my liking i add tin, if my test cast is not hard enough i add antimoon or bismuth (some times copper wire)
Be very careful with making batches 50/50 antimony/lead or copper/lead, those temps are making more vaporise.

Mostly it comes out after curing/resting period of 3 months at a 13 bhn, good for 38 45 9mm.(range lead)
As stated before a boolit can be to brittle/to hard and shatter on impact, it lost its ductile advantages of the lead.
But for paper and long distance it is nice to know what the bhn is so you can redo a good successful batch.
Make notes from start to finish, even if you found some babbits on the scrapheap for cheap.

For 44mag 308 and 223 you need a harder alloy up to 20bhn.
Want to shoot full jacked loads with cast? up to 25 or even up to 30bhn.
btw for my 44mag full jacked loads i use ~16-18 bhn

If you find lead smering at the end of your barrel, your grease is not enough or not up to the speed for that caliber.
if find any at the beginning of your barrel it is a sizing or a hardness problem.
Avoid friction at all times, it is not always a sizing problem or a grease problem, mostly hardness.

After hardness testing a batch you can test for brittleness if intended for hunting or high speed.
take a vice and set the mouth at 0.5 inch 1 cm apart, two hard wood pieces also work.
Get a dull stone chisel and a hamer, give it a good solid wack.
Did it cut or did it break?
cut: could be to soft, did it break its too hard

Ps for full jacked rifle loads always gas check them and keep a good eye on smearing in your barrel.

I hope this was helpful in some understanding.
With best regards Igor

[charlie b]

I have 2 typed of lead to choose from. I have "clip on WW" that I got off here. And I have pure lead which mainly I use for black powder.

So, your WW mix is almost a known quantity. Look up on that web site I linked earlier to see what alloy it is. If you want harder or softer you can mix other stuff in there. FWIW for good expansion out of a 9mm it may need to be a little softer. You'll have to cast and shoot some to be sure. The good news is if it needs to be softer you just add some pure lead to it.

FWIW, Lyman #2 (16bhn) is good for over 2000fps with gas checks. I usually powder coat and that is good for 2500fps. Above that and there are other issues.

[Stopsign32v]

So, your WW mix is almost a known quantity. Look up on that web site I linked earlier to see what alloy it is. If you want harder or softer you can mix other stuff in there. FWIW for good expansion out of a 9mm it may need to be a little softer. You'll have to cast and shoot some to be sure. The good news is if it needs to be softer you just add some pure lead to it.

FWIW, Lyman #2 (16bhn) is good for over 2000fps with gas checks. I usually powder coat and that is good for 2500fps. Above that and there are other issues.

Well I'm able to make it softer or harder. I managed to do that with some 45acp loads to get a certain hardness I wanted. If I can do that do I even need to know ratios?


Also to everyone, emptying my pot isn't that easy since I do dipping instead of pouring.

[Dusty Bannister]

How large a dip pot do you have? Just ladle out what you can into ingots, and then put on your welder gloves and tip out the little bit remaining in the pot. When dumping the bottom pour pot, one needs to keep the valve closed to avoid debris migrating into that area while the valve is open.

On a Lee 10 or 20 pound pot, the vertical support is not all that hot but you will not hold it for a long period of time. Besides, you will have unplugged the pot so it will be cooling as you work.

[Stopsign32v]

How large a dip pot do you have? Just ladle out what you can into ingots, and then put on your welder gloves and tip out the little bit remaining in the pot. When dumping the bottom pour pot, one needs to keep the valve closed to avoid debris migrating into that area while the valve is open.

On a Lee 10 or 20 pound pot, the vertical support is not all that hot but you will not hold it for a long period of time. Besides, you will have unplugged the pot so it will be cooling as you work.

Yea I could do that, didn't think about it.

[charlie b]

Well I'm able to make it softer or harder. I managed to do that with some 45acp loads to get a certain hardness I wanted. If I can do that do I even need to know ratios?

No, you don't have to know the ratios. I used to do that with wheel weights. I'd add lead until it was a soft as I wanted it, or tin to make it harder. Heat treat if I wanted it really hard. First few times I did it I didn't keep track. Still worked fine, I just had to go through the whole thing the next time I wanted a special mix.

After discovering the wheel for the 3rd time :) I started keeping track. That way if I wanted a hard mix I knew what to add. If I wanted soft same thing.

[Bigslug]

Life. Life is hardness. I think it's Brinnell number is somewhere well north of 50, but the Rockwell scale may be more appropriate. :kidding:

[BamaNapper]

Personally, I'm not the purist some of y'all are. My casting is only for handguns so my needs are simple. I don't get much more exotic than a gas check under some of the hotter magnum loads. My lead stash is separated as COWW, berm scrap, and pure lead for the muzzleloader. Both the COWW and berm scrap test out at a very usable 12-13 BHN. My daily carry gun gets carried with factory rounds, but I know how to cast and load for a reasonable approximation of the factory round as far as accuracy is concerned. And I can load them all day with either the COWW or berm scrap I have on hand. I'll let the big dollars of the ammo manufacturer fund the research into developing the load required for proper expansion of a chosen projectile. My casting and loading is to allow me large quantities of ammunition to have fun and maintain proficiency with my daily carry and other handguns.

I guess I approach it from the realization that my odds of ever being in a life or death shooting situation are exceedingly small. And I can say with certainty that I will never be in more than one, so it's not like I get to work up a load for it based on lessons learned. (Reality: the box of self defense rounds I bought more than a decade ago is still 3/4 full, the other 5 rounds were fired to find their POI.) And if, God forbid, I ever find myself in such a situation, I can't imagine I would feel any more confident, or have any pride in, knowing that I was using my own reloads.

20:1 for me is just a recipe. The end result, however I get there, is to cast a boolit that's hard enough to shoot accurately and not lead the barrel while I'm practicing.