New source of gas check material for those who roll their own...

[AZ-Stew]

I've been wondering about the new Budweiser aluminum "bottles" since I first saw them in a TV ad. I bought some yesterday for research purposes. First thing I had to do was rid one of them of the liquid filler they use to prevent the bottles from becoming dented or collapsing during shipment. Sacrifices must be made. [smilie=1:

Using my bandsaw, I cut the bottleneck section off just below the shoulder, then cut the bottom off. I used a tubing mic to measure the wall thickness and found it to be an amazingly consistent .015-.016 at both ends. I don't know whether the .001 difference was measurement error or variation in the wall thickness at various locations.

Anyway, those who know the homemade gas check business better than I, due to first hand experience, can comment on whether this is a good source. I've always thought the standard flat-ended cans were too thin, and the fact that some folks use two layers to make one check seems to confirm this.

Comments??

Regards,

Stew

[snaggdit]

I'm waiting on one of Pat's checkmakers so I will be watching this thread with interest!

[badgeredd]

It seems like the .015/.016" thickness might be a bit thick. I DID find that some of the cat food cans (I think mine are 9-Lives brand) are .008/.009" thick. The cans I am using are coated on the inside but I found that if I use the coated side for the inside of the GC it works well. As you say the pop cans are thin, but I have a 358156 single cavity that the check shank was damaged on when I go it. I carefully bored it to take the pop can checks at .004" thick. REALLY cheap boolits now!:twisted:

Edd

[AZ-Stew]

Huh. I thought this post would get more comment. I'll have to go measure some .375 checks I have and see how thick they are for comparison. I'll post later when I go out to the shop.

Regards,

Stew

[azrednek]

Anyway, those who know the homemade gas check business better than I, due to first hand experience, can comment on whether this is a good source.

Stew

Yes, it is an extremely good source!! Stew, so nice of you to relieve the contents of those bottles and post your research results here!! Tell the wife you are being pressured by other members to check the consistancy of an entire case and various brands.

[snaggdit]

+1 on the pressure...

[mrbill2]

Man, don't tell me I am going to have to start drinking beer again and collecting beer cans. This cast bullet stuff is realy getting complicated.

[AZ-Stew]

Duty calls. I'll finish the other four I have this week, and if they don't have the consistency I believe they will have, I'll have to go get some more for testing.

I measured some Hornady checks a while ago in my shop. They mic'd at .019 for .375 checks, .018 for .45s, and .020 for both the .32 and .30s.

These 16oz Bud containers should make several hundred checks from each bottle. Looks like good stuff.

Regards,

Stew

[Boerrancher]

I have been using the bud aluminum bottles since they came out for gas checks on my 30 cal boolits. I will tell all of you that a standard reloading press does not have enough power behind it to cut these bottles. You can do it with an arbor press easily enough though, or a regular hole punch and a hammer on a block of hard wood. I had a friend of mine make me a hole punch with springs that you feed a strip of the material in and smack it with a big mallet to punch out the disks. It works quite well but it is heavy, about 10 lbs, but it has to be in order for it to punch the thicker material. Here is a pic of my disk punch with a strip of an Aluminum Bud Light bottle sticking out of it.
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk155/Boerrancher/Tools/101_0207.jpg

Here is a pic of some of the aluminum gas checks made from the Bud Light bottle.
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk155/Boerrancher/Tools/101_0210.jpg

I get on average 175, 30 cal gas checks out of a bottle. I don't like the cheap watered down stuff but I have a friend that does every so often and he saves the bottles for me. I have been using them for at least a year now. I never posted on it because I thought every one else had thought of using them as well. The aluminum is very soft which makes it easy to shape with out becoming brittle like some of the sheet aluminum I have used.

They work great, I have been pushing a 50/50 WW and pure alloy out of my 30-30 up to 2300 fps, and 2500 fps with my 30-06, and have had no problems with leading. I have around 500 rounds through each of those rifles and have yet to run a patch or a brush through them, and both shoot sub MOA groups. I never could get that kind of accuracy out of commercial gas checks or gas checks I made out of pop cans as consistently as I do the Bud Light gas checks.

Best wishes form the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[Echo]

Dang! Joe, those look great! Looks like I have another branch on this tree to explore...

[snaggdit]

I'm up for the disposing of the liquid filler, although I prefer my home brew beer. Sounds like Pats check maker might have a hard time with the material, though. I guess I will just have to build up a stock of the material :) before it arrives and see.

[Tom W.]

Gee. I wonder how the cap on my Crown Royal bottle will work?????? :bigsmyl2:

[Buckshot]

...............Ya know, the weight of the additional trials and tribulations we have to go through to shoot cast is just getting me down. However fear not, I WILL persevere without further complaint. :-)

................Buckshot

[qajaq59]

Boerrancher, those are pretty darn nice gas checks. I take it that you put in the strip, whack it with a hammer and get those??
If so, I'd be curious to know how much your friend would charge me to make that punch?
Qajaq

[Boerrancher]

Boerrancher, those are pretty darn nice gas checks. I take it that you put in the strip, whack it with a hammer and get those??
If so, I'd be curious to know how much your friend would charge me to make that punch?
Qajaq

The punch only punches out the flat aluminum disk. The disk is then placed in a forming die and formed into a gas check. As far as my friend making another punch like that, he just had knee surgery a couple days ago, and is already 40+ days behind on his work. He doesn't know when he will be able to stand at a machine. I had a new idea for a 30 cal check maker that I was going to have him work on, but I haven't even mentioned it because of his bum leg.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[Ricochet]

I've been getting my liquid filler in longnecks. I'm having a terrible time making checks from them.

[Charlie Sometimes]

Man, I'd like to have one of them punches and forming dies sets, too. I have laid off the beer, but I'm sure I've got buddies somewher that would save the aluminum bottles for me!

[quasi]

The downside is the Bud beer, it is HORRIBLE.

[snaggdit]

I might ask around some local bars and see about snagging some empties. A agree on the taste.

[mooman76]

A&W has a aluminum bottle for their rootbeer float.

[AZ-Stew]

I haven't had a Bud in years. Mic is OK, and the Mic Amber is reasonable, but I'm partial to some German brews (Paulaner Salvator is my favorite) and a number of domestic microbrews. The Salvator is probably the ultimate in beers that have a full malt flavor, while a number of domestic micros give a fabulous hop flavor. Hazed and Infused by Boulder Beer in Boulder, CO, is one of them. There are a number of pretenders, that in their own right have good hoppiness as well as a full malt, but H&I is the best. One of my favorite weekend pastimes is opening one each of Salvator and H&I and drinking them alternately to get the full effect of the brewer's art as applied to both of them. Malt - Hops - Malt - Hops! It's a rolercoaster ride of flavor.

Bud? Well, it's Bud. It's one of the generic "cheap yellow beers" that we guzzle by the millions of barrels each year as Americans. There's certainly nothing about it that grabs one's attention. But now we have a reason to empty a few: that new aluminum bottle that will undoubtably make tens of thousands of gas checks across the country.

Regards,

Stew

[JIMinPHX]

I had thought about making up a compound leverage gizmo with a progressive punch set up on it for making checks on my reloading press. I gave up the idea when I measured a coke can at about 0.004" thick. That's less than a .22 cal GC. These bottles look close enough that I could probably make them work. I may have to adjust some gas check shank sizes a little to get a proper fit, but since I'm starting to make my own molds now, that's not such a stretch for me.

Thanks for breathing new life into an old idea Stew.

[Boerrancher]

I had thought about making up a compound leverage gizmo with a progressive punch set up on it for making checks on my reloading press. I gave up the idea when I measured a coke can at about 0.004" thick. That's less than a .22 cal GC. These bottles look close enough that I could probably make them work. I may have to adjust some gas check shank sizes a little to get a proper fit, but since I'm starting to make my own molds now, that's not such a stretch for me.

Thanks for breathing new life into an old idea Stew.

Jim,

You will not be able to punch this bottle material in a reloading press. I have yet to see a reloading press punch any material greater than 10 thousandths in thickness. Even when testing his die set, Pat Marlin limits the material thickness to 10 thousandths. There is just not enough leverage to get the job done. You will have to make a punch that you can smack with a hammer or use an arbor press on the thicker material.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[Reddot]

You guys are completely missing the most important part of this endeavor. ARE YOU COLOR CORRIDINATING YOUR GC WITH YOUR SHOOTING OUTFIT? Boerrancher first you make a nice blue gc and then the next one is silver. Geeze you guys, do you go to the range dressed in jeans, green shirt, orange socks, and a red hat? I am so glad that I am here to help you guys avoid a fashion faux pas.

[kir_kenix]

First off Shiner Bock is the ultimate brew....

Second, why doesn't Hornady or someone similiar start making aluminum gc's? Pretty sure they would be really really cheap, I wouldn't care if they were just recycled beer cans....

I might try and build a punch like BR too. Seems like all i would need is a punch and ejector to make GC's right on my press.

Oh, another cheapo source of .22 gc's....large rifle primers. I've been tearing out the anvil and using 2 tapered punches to expand them large enough to seat on a .22 boolit. Very limited accuracy tests have shown that they are about as accurate as comercial gcs in my rifles. The shiny CCI primers seem to be the easiest to expand and seat.

[JIMinPHX]

Jim,
...I have yet to see a reloading press punch any material greater than 10 thousandths in thickness. ...

I was going to set it up with about 5:1 compound leverage built into the gizmo. A hammer & die shoe would have been my second choice if the leverage thing didn't work.

Thanks for the info,
Jim

[Charlie Sometimes]

Oh, another cheapo source of .22 gc's....large rifle primers. I've been tearing out the anvil and using 2 tapered punches to expand them large enough to seat on a .22 boolit. Very limited accuracy tests have shown that they are about as accurate as comercial gcs in my rifles. The shiny CCI primers seem to be the easiest to expand and seat.

Never thought of that! Man, I am brain dead lately. What size taper punch are you using?
I use a single stage Orange Crusher II to load all of my ammo on, and since I got it (I updated from a Lyman Spartan) I have saved all of the spent primers that it catches, and put them in a plastic container just to see how many rounds I have decaped on it- that jug is getting pretty heavy now! I wondered if I could ever find a use for them- now I think I have one! Thanks again, guys! :-D

This web site continues to intrigue me. I get something postive from it everyday! May the freedom to use this resource always exist! [smilie=w:

[Ricochet]

Second, why doesn't Hornady or someone similiar start making aluminum gc's? Pretty sure they would be really really cheap, I wouldn't care if they were just recycled beer cans....
Wonder if the Gatorchecks guy's given any thought to non-copper checks?

[Charlie Sometimes]

We've got an aluminum smelting plant and a rolling plant next door to each other here in WV that is closing and laying off respectively. :( If they want to help the economy out, they better get busy on ordering and setting up for those check stamping machines! I don't think there are that many aluminum manufacturers left in the US any more, from the way they talk about his closing. :coffee: :confused:

[kir_kenix]

Charlie Sometimes: I'm away from home right now, and I can't remember what punches I used. Different brands of primes require a different punch in the first step, as the thickness is different. It's pretty darn time consuming, so you won't be pumping out thousands of these things with the method i've been using. I've been thinking of making a reloading press die/punch that would do it in one step, but I've never got around to it.

I'll drop the hint to Hornady next time I'm in Grand Island about the aluminum gas checks...but I doubt it'll do much good. Would be nice if somebody would start pumping them out at 1/5th the price of conventional gas checks.

[dakotashooter2]

Check the local printer for aluminum printing plates. Available in several thicknesses. :drinks: Of course one misses out on the "collection" part.

[Charlie Sometimes]

I was looking at some of my spent primers today and comparing to some checked 22's I have on hand. Yea, even with a die in a press it will still be tedious and slow. When I deprime my cases, a lot of the anvils seem to fall out anyway, so that is a step I won't have to do as much. If you pace yourself, you could do a hundred or so at a time and not get "squint eye" from it!
If you ever make one of those dies, I would love to see it. I'm not a "metalsmith" but I wouldn't think it would take too much to do. I have several ideas in my head now on ways I might accomplish this with just punches and an "anvil". Waste not want not, eh?

[35 Whelen]

Boerrancher, any chance of you posting more pictures of the check punching tool? Maybe with some measurements? I have a lathe, and while I'm no machinist, I could probably make something that would work.
What'd really be nice is if you could maybe show us the process of making the checks.
Thanks,
35W

[trevj]

I'd be pretty interested in knowing why you say that a reloading press cannot punch these thin aluminum disks, when they have enough leverage to swage bullets as well as to reshape brass for cartridge conversions.

Set-up choices? Punch cutting edge shape?

Just seems unreasonable to me. Would love some details on the punch sizes and clearances, as well.

Cheers
Trev

[Cap'n Morgan]

Set-up choices? Punch cutting edge shape?

Good points.

The leverage is at its highest at the top of the stroke. Adjust the die accordingly. Don't worry if it means the disks won't be pushed out of the die; the next disks will do that eventually.

Also, the shape of the cutting edge can lower the required pressure force dramatically. A few degree slope on the punch will result in a longer shearing distance = less force needed. A "V" shape, either pointed or inverted, will do the same, but will be better balanced. The disks will take shape after the profile of the punch, but if you don't overdo it it won't show up in the final gas check.

[keebo52]

Hey guys, I can't find any of the Bud aluminum bottles in my area. Anyone want to empty a few and send me the cans to try?

[trevj]

Good points.

The leverage is at its highest at the top of the stroke. Adjust the die accordingly. Don't worry if it means the disks won't be pushed out of the die; the next disks will do that eventually.

Also, the shape of the cutting edge can lower the required pressure force dramatically. A few degree slope on the punch will result in a longer shearing distance = less force needed. A "V" shape, either pointed or inverted, will do the same, but will be better balanced. The disks will take shape after the profile of the punch, but if you don't overdo it it won't show up in the final gas check.

I was thinking along the same lines. More towards a radius (either concave, or convex) at the cutting edge of the punch itself, so the shear of the material starts at one or more points, then progresses, rather than pressure building until the yield on the entire diameter is reached.

I'm ponderin' a punch and die set that would fit on the reloading press that would allow a guy to run along the edge of a sheet, and pound out a continuous pile of blanks....[smilie=1:

Things to ponder....

Cheers
Trev

[Boerrancher]

All I know is that my friend who makes these gizmos and has been making his own gas checks for nearly 20 years and he has never made a successful punch to punch out material thicker than 10 thousandths on a reloading press, and still have it in good enough shape to form into a gas check. Pat Marlin even stated on his gas check forming tool that it would only punch 10 thousandths thick material. Not that I completely disagree with the points that everyone has brought up, but when I have two different men who have worked on developing these tools both say that a reloading press will not reliably punch anything thicker than 10 thou. material, I tend to not even bother to attempt it.

On a separate Note, I will try to get some photos up of my entire 30 cal gas check making process. It is time consuming, but by the number of posts I have I am sure you can tell that I have a lot of that on my hands. I do get some really nice gas checks that seem to shoot as good if not better in some cases than the Hornady or Lyman checks, so I guess it is worth the time.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[Cap'n Morgan]

All I know is that my friend who makes these gizmos and has been making his own gas checks for nearly 20 years and he has never made a successful punch to punch out material thicker than 10 thousandths on a reloading press, and still have it in good enough shape to form into a gas check.

Joe,

I'm a certified tool & die maker; trust me on this [smilie=1:

The cutting force needed is a product of shear length x material thickness.

A punch with a concave shape twice the height of the material thickness, will only require approx half the cutting force.

The radius of the concave shear necessary for a .02 thick .30 cal gas check will pretty much follow the outside of a beer can - just in case someone should need a grinding template. :wink:

[JIMinPHX]

Captain,

Should that be a spherical concave shape or a cylindrical concave shape? I seem to remember seeing electrician's punch out tools (Greenlee?) that were cylindrically concave & I've seen punches on progressive stamping machines that had spherical relief. I'm wondering which would be better here & why. If you could give me any clues, I'd appreciate it. I was thinking that the cylindrical relief leaves a good hole, but the knock out ends up looking like a potato chip. That might have something to do with it, but I really don't know. I haven't made many punches. Again, any advice is appreciated.

Thanks,
Jim

[Boerrancher]

......but the knock out ends up looking like a potato chip.


Now you have it in a nut shell Jim. You can with a concave punch get enough pressure on a reloading press to cut 0.020 material, but the knock out is what you want to make the check out of and if it is not a near perfect circle with an evenly cut edge it will not form properly. I am never said you couldn't cut it with a reloading press, I said you couldn't cut it and have anything worth making a gas check out of. I just don't see any way around a flat bottom punch cutting out flat circular disks.

Even at the Sierra Plant all of their punches that punch jackets start out and maintain a flat bottom all the way through the drawing out process even on the boat tail bullet the punch has a flat bottom. Round does not work for bullet or boolit bases.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Good info, I agree with the quality of the content of this new sorce of GC's. I will also ask my favorite bar maid to keep a few dozen for me. Yhanks for the information!!! SL 45/70:mrgreen:

[Cap'n Morgan]

I was thinking that the cylindrical relief leaves a good hole, but the knock out ends up looking like a potato chip. That might have something to do with it, but I really don't know. I haven't made many punches. Again, any advice is appreciated.

Jim,

I would try a cylindrical concave, or just grind a slight (one or two degrees) angle on the punch. Remember; you only need to double the shearing length to reduce the shearing force with 50%. The actually shearing of a stamped part is already done before the punch is halfway through the material! So in theory to cut a .01 disc the punch only need to move .005 into the material.

Again, I wouldn't worry about a slight "potato chip" shaped disc, the disk is still round, and the following draw process will stretch and flatten the disc over the draw punch. But don't take my word for it; try putting a slight curve on a disc and run it through the draw die - I'll be happy to finish off a heaping helping of humble pie if it doesn't works [smilie=1:

[35 Whelen]

As an electrician, I've used the Greenlee knockout cutters. They do cut nice round pieces. Here's a pic of one:http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11515&stc=1&d=1234933026

I know the knockout looks mis-shaped, but I've used these things 100's of times and the cutters do cut nice round holes.
35W

[carpetman]

35 Whelen--My dad was an electrician (in Wichita Falls,Texas) and I have his set of Greenlee knockout punches which he had as long as I can remember. Yes, they make a perfect hole, of course for a gas check you are using the material that makes the hole. With the Greenlee you start out with a hole so it would be ruined as a gas check--that's why a press is being used. I've not cut thin aluminum with them but they do require some pretty heavy force. I use them for making the entry doors in purple martin houses and use an impact wrench to drive them.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Ask me nice, and I will tell you all where to get sheet aluminum that mikes a consistent .008" and can usually be had free in reasonable quantities, in large sheets.

Rich
Buff Killer

[35 Whelen]

35 Whelen--My dad was an electrician (in Wichita Falls,Texas) and I have his set of Greenlee knockout punches which he had as long as I can remember. Yes, they make a perfect hole, of course for a gas check you are using the material that makes the hole. With the Greenlee you start out with a hole so it would be ruined as a gas check--that's why a press is being used. I've not cut thin aluminum with them but they do require some pretty heavy force. I use them for making the entry doors in purple martin houses and use an impact wrench to drive them.

How long ago was your Dad an electrician? I've lived in Wichita Falls all my life. I may have known him. Regarding the KO cutter, obviously the hole in it negates its use as a gas check punch, but I thought if someone saw the design, they'd understand how a punch might be made.
35W

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Question: why would the hole in the middle negate use as a gas check? Ever look at military FMJ slugs? That gray/black stuff at the base is the lead core.

jut curious...

Rich
Buff Killer

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

And now the $64 dollar answer: go to your newspaper and get a few sheets of the aluminum they use for the printing presses. Used once and discarded.

Rich
Buff Killer

[KTN]

My punchdie cuts .020" copper sheet with little effort with RCBS RC2.
These are .50" disks to make .458" checks.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o277/kainiin/IMG_1952.jpg
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o277/kainiin/IMG_1955.jpg
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o277/kainiin/IMG_1957.jpg
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o277/kainiin/IMG_1964.jpg



Kaj

[trevj]

OK, now THAT"S what we're talking about people!

Thank you Kaj!

How about some pictures from a couple different angles?

Your work? Commercially available?

Cheers
Trev

[snaggdit]

IdahoSharpshooter - I have used these sheets before years ago for other stuff, but didn't think about the thickness until you mentioned it! I think I will go get my hands on 10 sheets or so, and be set for life! (or at least a year or 2).

[Cap'n Morgan]

Kaj,

Your arrangement looks great. Now all you need is a simple guide/stop pin to control the step length via the holes in the strip. Then you can do away with the guide markings, and watch TV while crunching out discs. :-D

[Boerrancher]

I must admit that is a really cool set up, and I will now proceed to insert my foot in my mouth concerning punching material thicker than 10 thou. with a reloading press.


Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[KTN]

OK, now THAT"S what we're talking about people!

Thank you Kaj!

How about some pictures from a couple different angles?

Your work? Commercially available?

Cheers
Trev



Trevj,

Here's few more pictures.
It's all home made and feel free copy it if you like.


Cap'n Morgan,

Don't get me started all over again designing yet another gascheck maker.
This is my third design allready :mrgreen:. (and I'm quite happy with it)


Boerrancher,

And I must admit that I was myself little skeptical about if it will work,but decided to try it anyway:-D.
With tight tolerances and at the top of the stroke,it cuts nice and clean.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o277/kainiin/IMG_1969.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o277/kainiin/IMG_1979.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o277/kainiin/IMG_1985.jpg



Kaj

[Charlie Sometimes]

Per the Freechex information provided on his sales site- the McMasters-Carr catalog pg 2277 has (besides what he recommends) hand punch sets that punch a nice disc from thin stock. I have an old Whitney Metal Co. hand punch (very similar to the small set depicted in the plastic box) that belonged to my grandfather. The 9/32 punch is what Freechex uses to make 22 discs, and a 13/32 for 308 discs. Similar to what is posted in the pic's above, I think you could adapt the hand punch interchangable punch/die idea and scale up the outside of the die to fit a 7/8-14 press hole and adapt the punch to the ram like the Lee push through dies size dies. That could also be reversed so the disc would fall out, too. The hand punches couldn't possibly be anymore difficult to operate than a leveraged reloading press. You might get better usage from your metal with the hand punch too, and not have to cut everything into strips, etc. on the small GC's.

I am considering getting a couple of the Freechex sets (since these are all that seem to be available) and have been studying my various options and things I would need additionally.

[trevj]

Thanks Kaj,

That is an elegant design.

Nice use of the offset bar cut to use for the bulk of the body of the cutting die!

Very clear to see how the ejector for the checks works, too.

I should go rooting through the scrap under my lathe, I guess....

What are you using for a lathe? I've got a Myford here in my basement, but a couple nice "real" lathes at work.

Work goes faster on the big lathes, but it's pretty easy to get lost in the shop, in front of the Myford, too.

Very nice work! You should be very proud of it!

Cheers
Trev

[trevj]

Well, to drag this back to the top, where I can find it again...

I dug up a piece of 17-4 H-1000 or H-900 (unknown for certain) and had at the body of the cutting die.

So far so good.

PITA to get used to a small lathe again. :)

Managed to shoot a drill through the full length of it with the hole running true, not always an easy task, and will take a photo or two.

I'm aiming at a check maker that I can pound out .22 cal checks with, and am deliberating on the sizes and the die design.

Looking at some commercial checks, the material is aprox .010" copper. Figure .050" height more or less, so .214" (the check seat diameter I find published) plus .040" x 2, equals a .294" diameter blank.


At this point, I have settled on a .2145 punch diameter, I think, and am working out my die design so I can have the punch and die align, and still have the finished check eject with a tapered edge on it, so it will form down and grip.

Ponderponderponder....

Been pondering how to make a punch die with interchangeable sizes, too. Thinking drill bushings at this point, but still pondering...


Cheers
Trev

[trevj]

Built this over the last week or so, partly at home in the evening, and partly at lunchtime, at work.

The die body is 17-4. Turns nice, if you are not in too much hurry. Dead easy to get a decent surface finish.

The slot was cut with a 1/32 slitting saw (a device of torment and misery!) because I had one handy. Didnt see much need to go thicker, either.



http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s200/45-70/DSCF0080-1.jpg

The hole size was drilled out with a 9/32 long drill, and reamed up to a Letter M size hole (.295", IIRC). The hole had been drilled out from below, to 5/16", to cut down drag and alignment issues.


http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s200/45-70/DSCF0090.jpg

The punch is built out of some rod that was in the scrap bin. We'll see how it holds up. It's not hardened.

I'll add more info later, gotta go see a movie!

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s200/45-70/DSCF0089.jpg

Cheers
Trev

[JIMinPHX]

Now you have it in a nut shell Jim. You can with a concave punch get enough pressure on a reloading press to cut 0.020 material, but the knock out is what you want to make the check out of and if it is not a near perfect circle with an evenly cut edge it will not form properly. ...

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

In the case of the Greenlee punch, the female punch is flat & the male punch has the relief cut in it. The hole comes out flat & the slug (disk) comes out like a potato chip. If I were to leave the male punch flat & cut the relief into the female punch, I wonder if the disk would stay flat. I may try that & see what happens.

[JimKirk]

Trevj....
just what I had mind for my design ....I don't need the 7/8" threaded shank....just a smooth 7/8" (maybe 1" in lenght) up to a ring the size of a Forster split die ring....then another a smooth 7/8" section to clear the top of a Forster Coax press..then the cutting head like you have. The punch could have a .473 rim that the Coax shell holder jaws would close on....the upward pressure would be on the flat part of shell holder base. The bad part is...I don't have a lathe and my access is more limited now than ever! I wouldn't even need the wrench flats either.

Jimmy K

[trevj]

JimKirk,

You need a lathe!:)

I dunno how the rest of the world lives without being able to make stuff like this! Really. Can't comprehend it.

My punch is too long, no biggie, I'll make the next iteration a little shorter. I drilled all the way through the ppunch holder, and tapped it 1/4" fine, so I can have good use out of the holder at least, later on, if this project turns into something else...

I was not sure how much pressure I would be dealing with, so did not counter bore down as close as Kaj did on the top of his die body. Was not sure how the stainless would hold up either. I could go a lot shorter.

Pondering trying case hardening (probably with Kasenite) on some leaded free machining steel, for the "next" try. If this one wears too quickly, anyways. Possibly a die with changeable cutter inserts.

My cut takes place at about 80 percent of handle throw, so is nowhere near at the peak of the power available, even on the cruddy little Lyman convertible press that it is on. The rest of the stroke is enough to lift the cut disc barely free of the top of the body. I have been peering down the hole to see my alignment, so it's not super quick, but I figure maybe 10 minutes or less to do the hundred or so blanks I cut already.
If I mount it down lower, and install a tray (round hole cut out of a plastic dish) so I can flick the disk into the tray, it'll go much faster. Without getting into automatic advance mechanisms, visual alignment seems faster than drawing all the lines and trying to use them, to me.

Once I work out the actual dimensions I want, I am thinking that I can grind a shank from a chucking reamer into submission as a punch, and have an all High Speed Steel punch. Should hold up pretty well.

I gotta track down a local source for copper flashing strips, and see if I can get some thick enough for what I want. Maybe a stop at the local paper office, too, to see if they have an offset press still.

The adventure continues. I sure couldn't see whacking a thousand of these out with a hammer as being a good time! No sir!

Cheers
Trev

[Ole]

Someone needs to send a link of this thread to the people that make the cheap Wolf/Ruskie ammo.

I'm confident that they could make gas checks for $10/1000 all day long.

[trevj]

Yeah, no kidding.

Not rocket science!

The thought of paying $50 a thousand for checks, has me putting in some thinkin'...

Cheers
Trev

[KTN]

Trevj,

looking good :-D, I'm looking forward seeing your finished checkmaker.
That counter bore on top of my punchdie is there so I can put plastic bottle in it, to catch disks as they are punched.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o277/kainiin/IMG_2004.jpg


On the right is my new project,case trimmer die for my Dillon 1050 :mrgreen:.



Kaj

[Cap'n Morgan]

Now here's another harebrained idea for gaschecks.

I had hoped I could avoid messing with gaschecks for my 375 H&H, and stick with FB only. But around 1400 fps the groups disappeared into thin air - and I didn't invest in a 375 just to use it as an overgrown 22LR.:twisted:

Since I didn't have any copper material, but lots of solid brass at hand I decided to try milling some gaschecks:


http://www.imagechicken.com/uploads/1235599086007292800.jpg (http://www.imagechicken.com)


The material is round 2.75" barstock brass. Using a special two flute trepanning tool the outside of the check is cut first, then the tool makes an orbiting motion and puts a 3 degree outward taper on the outside. Next the inside is removed with an endmill using helical interpolation. Finally the finished gaschecks are cut of with a T-slot type slit saw.

Each "batch" produces 25 gaschecks, and then it's only a matter of lowering the start point .165 - press the green button and the process is repeated. No deburring necessary - CNC is a wonderful thing!


http://www.imagechicken.com/uploads/1235600053097595100.jpg (http://www.imagechicken.com)


Ohoy mate! Thar's gold in them thar dubloons!


http://www.imagechicken.com/uploads/1235600177021614300.jpg (http://www.imagechicken.com)

The gaschecks fit nicely on the bullet (325 grains). During sizing the tapered outside is crimped on/into the shank making it impossible for the check to seperate from the bullet.

So far I have only tried a few shots (1800 fps), but the results look very promising.

[RayinNH]

Cap'n, those look like boolit jewelry. It's a shame to put them on lead boolits. I think you need silver. :drinks:...Ray

[yodar]

It seems like the .015/.016" thickness might be a bit thick. I DID find that some of the cat food cans (I think mine are 9-Lives brand) are .008/.009" thick. The cans I am using are coated on the inside but I found that if I use the coated side for the inside of the GC it works well. As you say the pop cans are thin, but I have a 358156 single cavity that the check shank was damaged on when I go it. I carefully bored it to take the pop can checks at .004" thick. REALLY cheap boolits now!:twisted:

Edd

Too thick ! Waaaay too thick. I prefer to put my home brew beer in them, I have enough to bottle 5 gallons of homebrew

yodar

[oldtoolsniper]

And to think I have two 109 lathes and no clue as to how to use em

[Charlie Sometimes]

Cap'n Morgan- Is that really cost effective?

For those milled gas checks, you should turn your own boolits, too. Doesn't seem right to put those on "regular" cast stuff. :bigsmyl2:

You have inhaled too many fumes from the lead pot! :kidding:

Those sure are purty though! [smilie=w:

[JimKirk]

Old Tool..
Is that in Craftsman 109 ...I think that is what we had in Indust. arts class....didn't know crap about a lathe then(nor do I now) ...but I made it work ...wish I had that old machine .....they shut down the HS and some dude made off with the Craftsman, a truck load tool bits and accessaries for it.... why didn't I find out until it was too late!

Trev...what model would you look for if you were getting a small lathe?

Jimmy K

[JimKirk]

Hey I know some of you are laughing your rears off.... but this is why we're shooting Boolits instead of rocks on the end of sticks......some guy was thinking how to .......
Jimmy K

[oldtoolsniper]

Jimkirk,
Both of them are craftsman 109's. I buy old woodworking tools and restore them. Mostly hand tools and I picked these up along the way. This spring the community college has a basic machinist class geared towards hobby/farm equipment repair that I am going to take so I can get myself another expensive hobby to save money.

[Boondocker]

I can relate to that oldtool I have an old seneca falls lathe and an old Bridgeport I bought that I found out I can take perfectly good steel and turn it into useless hunk of iron. They are closing our phone company garage for good the 1 st quarter and if nothing comes along shortly the local community college is offering 12 credits to the unemployed. Machine shop looks interesting and it does relate to my field so it cant hurt. The machine work these guys are doing is simply amazing and my hats are off to them.:castmine:

[Cap'n Morgan]

Cap'n Morgan- Is that really cost effective?

Well, perhaps not, but it seemed like a good way to spend a sleety, rainy Sunday - especially when the alternative was cleaning out the attic [smilie=1:

Now with the tooling and programming out of the way, a setup takes about ten minutes. The output is a little over 200 checks/hour - not bad, really, as I can run it as a second operation while working overtime - with the boss' blessing.

[JimKirk]

Trev.....
Thinking again...a roller ....hand turned or electrical...that would flatten ...roll.. copper wire(House wire say # 12) into a sheet.... maybe rolled to the thickness (.010-.015) needed for a single cup blank..limited by only the length of wire you have. I see two rollers ...one powered ..the other controled by pressure devise ...say hand screws (like a planing mill) ...insert wire.. out comes flat sheet of copper...may have to run it twice to get the sheet thin enough... Pass through blank cutter then cup former .....
What do you think?

Jimmy K

[oldtoolsniper]

I think copper work hardens.

[trevj]

Trev...what model would you look for if you were getting a small lathe?

Jimmy K

When I firt started looking, the area I lived in was about dry of machine tools, so I was looking for anything I could get. Life is better now, with the availability of the Chinese hobby machines, all said and done.

I eventually bought a really used Myford ML7 through a friend, and have since bought a Myford Super 7, and gradually built up a pile of accesories.

I have had a South Bend 9" that was a project that never got finished, and a Rockwell Delta 10", that now resides in a friend's shop.

My next machine will be a 12" or 13" swing machine. I'll keep my Myford, though.

What to look for? Something you can use. Any lathe, is better than no lathe. Get some books! Read all you can, if you want to learn what you can do. Check the public library for machining books, check with the local shop class teacher to see what they are using (Technology of Machine Tools, is one title). Stay away from Machinery's Handbook, until you can actullly use the information, it's basicly the mother of all wall charts in book form, rather than a how-to book.

Check out Home Shop Machinist magazine. If you don't feel the need to subscribe, grab an issue now and then, and check out the advertising. Lots of stuff out there!

Take a look at Varmint Al's Mini-Lathe page (Google will find it!) and see what can be done with a 7x10 Chinese hobby lathe.

Bigger, heavier machines will do wonderful stuff, as far as rigidity and precision go, but you can do the same work using brains and patience, on a much lighter, much less expensive machine.

Cap'n Morgan,

What mill are you using! Love the jewellery! High tech solution to replace a low tech problem! :D

Consider the parts catcher/strainer idea stolen, too! That's awesome!

Cheers
Trev

[trevj]

Trev.....
Thinking again...a roller ....hand turned or electrical...that would flatten ...roll.. copper wire(House wire say # 12) into a sheet.... maybe rolled to the thickness (.010-.015) needed for a single cup blank..limited by only the length of wire you have. I see two rollers ...one powered ..the other controled by pressure devise ...say hand screws (like a planing mill) ...insert wire.. out comes flat sheet of copper...may have to run it twice to get the sheet thin enough... Pass through blank cutter then cup former .....
What do you think?

Jimmy K

Take a look at goldsmiths rolls or jewellers rolls, also called a rolling mill. Not a cheap tool to buy new, but if you know what it is, and you see one cheap...

You would have to anneal the copper wire a couple times to get it down thin enough, then you still might have to deal with an alloy that does not deal as well with being worked, for one reason or another.

Dunno how desparate times would have to be to get me looking all that hard at an idea like that... But it could be done.

Copper pipe too. Was actually pondering pipe as a source for jacket cups for drawing up ...

Ideas, eh...

Cheers
Trev

[inuhbad]

I've always wondered about those Warsteiner & Heineken Mini-Kegs you can get at the liquor store... Are those Aluminum or Steel?

[Red River Rick]

Now here's another harebrained idea for gaschecks. ............................ CNC is a wonderful thing!

Cap'n Morgan, I couldn't agree with you more. I often wonder how I managed without one. Now, I'd never buy another conventional machine.

RRR

[Cap'n Morgan]

What mill are you using! Love the jewellery! High tech solution to replace a low tech problem!

I'm using a three-axis Cincinnati Arrow WMC with a two-axis rotary/tilting head. Nothing fancy, but very versatile.


Consider the parts catcher/strainer idea stolen, too! That's awesome!

You're welcome. I just wish I saw the light sooner! It would have saved me some nasty dumpster diving in the chip tray.

[Charlie Sometimes]

Hey I know some of you are laughing your rears off.... but this is why we're shooting Boolits instead of rocks on the end of sticks......some guy was thinking how to .......
Jimmy K

I shoot sticks, and sticks with rocks on the end, too. Must be flexible these days- you never know what will be available to you. ;-)

[trevj]

Thanks Cap'n Morgan,

Looks like a decent machine to operate! I run an older Milltronics machine at work sometimes (when it runs) but am definately not what I wouldd think of as a qualified operator/programmer.

Cheers
Trev

[JimKirk]

Charlie..
Shot many a stick ......killed some deer( lots of foam deer) ...with sticks with steel on the end ....never shot rocks on the end of my sticks....picked up around 150 rocks..while plowing ...some rearend made off with my rocks....fields now planted in trees ....no more plowing ...no more rocks for sticks!
By the way...I once could shoot sticks(at 45yds or <) about a good as boolits > ...but now I don't either as good as I would like! Had to quit with sticks..auto accident....no shoot sticks anymore.
Jimmy K

[Willbird]

Actually an old Brown and Sharp 00 could make gas checks, and they really are not used for production work any more(the work all went to china). They would run out a 8' bar with no help from the operator. 513 (there would be less due to a bar end tho) checks to the bar if they were .100" long with a .06" cutoff

8' bar of 3/8 brass costs $21.60 though, BUT your scrap can sold to recoup some cost.

If you made your checks from 12L14 steel it would only cost $8 for an 8' bar.(thats inflated price at onlinemetals.com)

here is a B&S #2 in action, an 00 is smaller

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ot6_4R1oZpM

Bill

[Cap'n Morgan]

Actually an old Brown and Sharp 00 could make gas checks, and they really are not used for production work any more(the work all went to china). They would run out a 8' bar with no help from the operator. 513 (there would be less due to a bar end tho) checks to the bar if they were .100" long with a .06" cutoff


Bill,

I was actually planing on having the checks made on a swiss machine. One of our customers had offered to do it at no charge, but I already promised to make him a mold for pilk casting in return for a bunch of turned brass bullets for my 270 Win. and I wouldn't bugger him further before the mold was delivered.

These were made on a CNC swiss machine, but he had a couple of old B&S which also would have done the job. The bullets shoots great, but I gladly admit it's cheating compared to casting... no challenge in getting them to group :-D



http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/863/270single.jpg (http://img518.imageshack.us/my.php?image=270single.jpg)

It takes 15 seconds to make one of these babies. Something to remember next time you're forking over 25 bucks for a box of 50 similar Barnes bullets...[smilie=1:

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/9017/270batch.jpg (http://img518.imageshack.us/my.php?
image=270batch.jpg)

[oldtoolsniper]

Now I have to buy a cnc lathe... this casting to save money is getting exspensive!

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Roger the money saving OldTool, but I've been told you gotta invest it to make it..??!! If this is true, I should be rich any time now...[smilie=1:

Semper Fi , S.L.

[akraven]

KTN and TrevJ
Did you guys use hardned steel for your checkmakers? Though I realize that copper and aluminum are soft I was curious if you felt you needed to use steel that could be hardned or regular steel. I have some 4140 and O-1 that I wa thinking of trying for making one. Thank you. akraven

[303Guy]

Isn't aluminium supposed to be abrasive? Well, the ever present oxide on the surface, anyway! And I thought aluminium had a tendency to smeer. Is there no aluminium fouling of the bore?

But on to making gas checks - I am planning a forming punch to make boat tailed gas checks in one step.

[trevj]

KTN and TrevJ
Did you guys use hardned steel for your checkmakers? Though I realize that copper and aluminum are soft I was curious if you felt you needed to use steel that could be hardned or regular steel. I have some 4140 and O-1 that I wa thinking of trying for making one. Thank you. akraven

I used 17-4 for my die body for the cutting edge. It is heat treated, but I am not sure to what state.

The punch I made was just as-is stainless rod of some sort, from the scrap bin.

I can make a new punch in a few minutes, or clean up the end of this one.

When I get keen and decide that I have the be-all to end all, I'll make the last one with a High Speed Steel punch and probably a hardened and ground or lapped cutter body.

Or not. :) I can make another if it wears out.

Still have not got moving on my check former yet. Oy yoy!

Cheers
Trev

[trevj]

Well,

To drag this back to the top.

I got a few minutes to play in the shop this afternoon, and have a somewhat working check maker. Somewhat, because half of it sits in the lathe chuck, and the other half is pushed by the tailstock ram.
Kinda handy to be able to adjust things on the fly, as it were, simply pushing the lathe tool out of the way, trying it, then making changes as required.

So... I got a punch that is .208 and a bit in diameter, tapered down to .200 over the last 40 thou or so. My "die" is a chunk of bronze bar stock bored to .230. I counterbored a hole at the working face, out to .296, and about 10 thou deep, to suit the blanks I made with the punch, already mentioned.

I am not even gonna grace these tools with a picture. They's UGLY! Good enough for test hack stuff, though.

With everything aligned correctly, I can slide a blank into place, bring the punch forward with the tailstock ram (holding it in a drill chuck) and it pushes a decent looking check out the back side of the die.

I seated a couple of them on some 225450's that I picked up at a gunshow, and pushed them through the sizer die the same way (I really need to build or buy a sizer, or build something along the lines of the Lee) using the tailstock ram for motive power. They seated nicely, almost seamlessly (a clue that my .295 punch unit is on the upper edge for size!) and are pretty tough to remove from the base with fingernail pressure.

I think I have something here! :D

Now I have to get my head around making a stand alone press to process these checks with, keeping it all in alignment, and make up some die and punch pairs that are not as prone to wear.

Pictures when the tool is done... Maybe not soon, but I'll update when it happens!

It all started today when I was looking at my Lee Autoprime and trying to figure out whether I could use it to form checks...

Cheers
Trev

[JIMinPHX]

Now you have it in a nut shell Jim. You can with a concave punch get enough pressure on a reloading press to cut 0.020 material, but the knock out is what you want to make the check out of and if it is not a near perfect circle with an evenly cut edge it will not form properly. I am never said you couldn't cut it with a reloading press, I said you couldn't cut it and have anything worth making a gas check out of. I just don't see any way around a flat bottom punch cutting out flat circular disks.

Even at the Sierra Plant all of their punches that punch jackets start out and maintain a flat bottom all the way through the drawing out process even on the boat tail bullet the punch has a flat bottom. Round does not work for bullet or boolit bases.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

Beware ye nay sayers, for judgment day is at hand & I have made my offerings to the machinery gods in preparation for this momentous event. Our lady of the blessed concentric parts don't fail me now.

[JIMinPHX]

As you can see in the picture above, there are two little red disks sitting on the package of thread wires. But can it cut 3 at once?

[JIMinPHX]

It can! & the disks look good. [smilie=w: Now I need to find some sheets of copper somewhere.

[35 Whelen]

Jim,
I am SO relieved!!! Not that you were able to punch out a disk, but that I'm not the ONLY one with a cluttered loading bench!!
35W

[JIMinPHX]

Jim,
I am SO relieved!!! Not that you were able to punch out a disk, but that I'm not the ONLY one with a cluttered loading bench!!
35W

A clean desk is a sign of a sick mind. :mrgreen:

[trevj]

A clean desk is a sign of a sick mind. :mrgreen:

I must have one of the healthiest minds around! :D

Cheers
Trev

[JIMinPHX]

Trevj, I suspected that you & I might be somewhat alike, even if we do have slightly different tastes in cutting fluids. ;-)

Clean desks (or work benches) frequently belong to people who never make mistakes. The only people that I know that never make mistakes are people who never actually do anything.

[JIMinPHX]

Now that I've gloated over my success, it's probably time for me to share a little useful info on how I did it. There were basically 4 things that allowed me to make this work without using the compound leverage gizmo that I thought I would need. The first was the Captain's recommendation to put a little curve on the die. I don't really have very much in the way of proper grinding equipment, so I did that by plunging a wizzer wheel with a Bridgeport that was spinning around 4krpm. I took about a half a thou per pass. By putting the curve on the female die & not the male, I was able to keep the knock out disk flat. I only used the spin jig to hold the work piece because it was already on the machine. A V-block would have been just fine too.

[JIMinPHX]

The other three things that made this work were -
1) sharp tools
2) close fits
3) setting the dies so that they contact near the end of the press stroke where leverage is already good.

I cut the tools pretty close to dead sharp & only left .002" of clearance between them. This required that I keep good alignment, which is why I made the die shoe up the way that I did & prayed to our lady of the blessed concentric parts. There was not much room for total error over the course of 6 part surfaces. I managed to get it on the first try though.

I still need to find some .010" copper sheet or something close to it. I looked in McMaster. They have .010" cartridge brass, but the copper sheets they list are all thicker. I'll need to look around a little more.

I've been looking for some of those aluminum bottles too, also with no luck so far. Neither my local Circle K nor my local grocery store seem to carry them. I'll have to keep looking around for them too.

[Freightman]

*Libbys * VIENNA SAUSAGE * cans are AL and a whole lot thicker than "Beer" cans .011 also *Bissel* OXYGEN CLEAN* carpet cleaner with the two AL cylinders are good and thick.022 but make beautiful cks.

[trevj]

Jim,

That's a pretty elegant solution for making flat discs. I'll look forward to seeing the report on how it works out with the copper.

I've seen copper flashing around the hardware stores in the past, but that last spike upwards in copper prices knocked that stuff to stupid prices, so it's mostly disappeared. I'll check the craft stores next time I'm in the city and see if they have any smaller sheets to try.

I've been pondering the idea of making a set of dies that would drop in to a sizer-lubricator, to use for shaping GC's.

Have not touched the project in a couple days. Gotta get back on it!

Saw 3 gophers up on the top of the snow yesterday on the way home from work! Spring soon!

How would the cartridge brass shims work out compared to copper? More fouling issues? Less? Same but different?

I picked up some 10 thou Al flashing, at $2 per square foot. I cut 42 blanks out of the edge, then trimmed off the 'holes' with scissors, and ran it through again. Figure it's cheap enough to not bother with cans and stuff, coating or no.



Cheers
Trev

[JIMinPHX]

I've been pondering the idea of making a set of dies that would drop in to a sizer-lubricator, to use for shaping GC's.

Cheers
Trev


My next bold move on this project was going to be to push my luck & try to put a forming button inside the female die. I'm hoping to make this rig into a 1-step progressive punch that makes a finished check for each pull of the handle. I'll post again when I get it made.

In the mean time, I may look around for some of those sausage cans that Freightman was talking about. They sound promising.

Regards,
Jim

[AZ-Stew]

Jim,

I can't guarantee that all the individual BevMo stores carry the Al Bud "bottles", but the one at the Tempe Marketplace (McClintock and the 202) does.

Since they're 16oz bottles, the six-pack price is a little high, but when you consider that you get beer AND checks, it's not bad.

Regards,

Stew

[JIMinPHX]

Jim,

I can't guarantee that all the individual BevMo stores carry the Al Bud "bottles", but the one at the Tempe Marketplace (McClintock and the 202) does.

Regards,

Stew

I read this too late. I was just down at the Rockabilly festival east of the airport.

I'll get down there again eventually. Thanks for the tip.

Jim

[MT Gianni]

AZStew, How are you cutting the bottles? Are you doing strips or just getting a flat part for a punch? Gianni

[rebliss]

Fellows,

You've inspired me to tackle this project as well. Currently, I'm drawing up my measurements to make punches and dies that will attach to a press. Although I am not a machinist, I have access to a couple. I plan on using the off-center method for the punch, and will be making my checks for .308 cal. My question: What size disks would I need to punch to create properly-sized checks? After some measurement, I'm figuring on .400. Also, when using Aluminum in the .015 thickness range, how much difference between my punch and die hole should I use? I was thinking of .002. And finally, how much clearance between my forming die and the punch--the full .015 thickness, or less?

[DuncaninFrance]

Can someone tell me where I can get the 'How to make your own gaschecks' information please, I have enough beer cans to sink a battleship and at $55 a 1000 for gaschecks here I would like to make some savings!

[trevj]

Somewhere either in Corbin's site, or in one of the Corbin's books, I read info to the effect of gas checks to be finished diameter, plus two times the height required.

I used that info to get me to the .295" diameter that I used for my 22 checks, and they sit a little higher than I like entirely, but if I do my part and don't succumb to the temptation to use a check that is not evenly formed, they seem to sit alright. They match up pretty well with the mangled flattened back out remains of some checks removed from some slugs that I bought already wearing them, too.

Haven't shot any of them yet!

Cheers
Trev

[JIMinPHX]

I found a few different things that I could use as base material. First, I found those Libby's Vienna sausages. The can was indeed aluminum, but the side of the can was ribbed, so I ended up just using the top in my punch. The disks punched out of it fine. The sausages tasted like the south end of a north bound rat, so I don't see myself going that route very often.

Next I found some .016" x 1/2" brass at a hardware store. It appears to be about half hard & is a bit rugged. I was able to punch it, but it took considerable effort. I think that it was a little much for the $10 Lee press that I am working with. A stronger press should not have a problem with it.

Next I found some 5 x 7" aluminum step flashing at Lowe's that was just over .010" thick. That stuff punches with little effort & @ 10 sheets for less than $3, it is certainly affordable. I figure that should be enough material to make up at least 1,500 aluminum checks. I could not find copper flashing at Lowe's or Home Depot.

Now I'm off to make up the dimple tool to mash these disks into cups.

Wish me luck.

Jim

[trevj]

Can someone tell me where I can get the 'How to make your own gaschecks' information please, I have enough beer cans to sink a battleship and at $55 a 1000 for gaschecks here I would like to make some savings!

Start with the beginning of this thread!

There are several other threads in this forum discussing different ways, and different tools that can be used.

Pat Marlin also has (had?) a group buy going on for his gas check making tool, IIRC, in 30 caliber only, so far. In one of the threads there, he shows the whole sequence of using the tool.

There is also the FreeChex tool, available off Ebay.

I'm certain there are others. If you have any access to a metal lathe and a milling machine, you are surely able to make something that will work, with a little effort. If not, you can see which tools fit your budget and style!

Cheers
Trev

[trevj]

I found a few different things that I could use as base material. First, I found those Libby's Vienna sausages. The can was indeed aluminum, but the side of the can was ribbed, so I ended up just using the top in my punch. The disks punched out of it fine. The sausages tasted like the south end of a north bound rat, so I don't see myself going that route very often.

That goes a ways towards explaining the shape of a Vienna sausage! Coincidence? Maybe not! :D


Next I found some .016" x 1/2" brass at a hardware store. It appears to be about half hard & is a bit rugged. I was able to punch it, but it took considerable effort. I think that it was a little much for the $10 Lee press that I am working with. A stronger press should not have a problem with it.

Tried it with the die adjusted a little closer to the can-over point on the press? My cheesy Lyman convertible hand/bench press (certainly not the epitome of strength!) makes a decent pop when I have the dies set up so that the cut takes place at mid stroke, but I can barely tell it has cut, when set so the cut happens at the bottom of the lever throw. That on 10 thou Al. and 10 or 11 thou brass shim, whether as got from the package, or annealed.


Next I found some 5 x 7" aluminum step flashing at Lowe's that was just over .010" thick. That stuff punches with little effort & @ 10 sheets for less than $3, it is certainly affordable. I figure that should be enough material to make up at least 1,500 aluminum checks. I could not find copper flashing at Lowe's or Home Depot.

Now I'm off to make up the dimple tool to mash these disks into cups.

Wish me luck.

Jim

Good luck!

I bought a section of .010" Al. flashing 12" wide, for about $2 per foot.

It seems too cheap to bother with cans.

Still looking around for copper.

Cheers
Trev

[JIMinPHX]

Well I got the forming button inside this thing & managed to pop out a few cups. They are sticking inside my female forming die, so I needed to dig them out with a small screwdriver. I'll either need to get a stronger die spring or I'll need to add a solid pin to push the finished parts out of the die.

I tried using the sausage can, the flashing, a coke can & the half hard brass. The coke can was too thin for the amount of clearance that I left between the male & female forming surfaces. It wrinkled. The brass, the sausage can & the flashing all produced good looking cups.

Unfortunately, my guesstimate on dimensions was slightly off & the aluminum cups are a slip fit on the shank of a boolit. I'll have to remake the female a little smaller. It worked out pretty well with the .016 brass though. That material was thick enough that it ended up fitting on the boolit shank just about correctly. The brass cup is now attached to the bottom of a 150-grain Lee flat point & looks pretty good.

[JIMinPHX]

Pat Marlin also has (had?) a group buy going on for his gas check making tool, IIRC, in 30 caliber only, so far. In one of the threads there, he shows the whole sequence of using the tool.

Trev

You mean that I'm just reinventing the wheel here? I could have just bought one of these from Pat? I wish I knew that before. I would not have wasted so much time & effort on this. Now I feel like an Idiot for having done this.

[Slow Elk 45/70]

JiminPHX, no way man, we are enjoying this...I for one think we all need to reach out a bit and see what we can do... you might find a better mouse trap..[smilie=1:

:drinks:

[Russel Nash]

Tagged for later...

south end of a northbound rat...

:mrgreen:

[DuncaninFrance]

From the point of view of a total novice at casting I for one very much appreciate all the information that is posted here and my thanks for doing it.

My main aim is to become sufficiently competent at producing my own ammo so that I know it's ability and can also make my hobby more cost effective. It would also be greener as I am re-cycling too [smilie=1:

I am hoping to start casting for my No:4 Enfield and will be using a Lee 90367 mold ( Gas Checked 309-160 grain )

Here it is.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f392/Duncaninfrance/STAGE-8A-web.jpg

[trevj]

You mean that I'm just reinventing the wheel here? I could have just bought one of these from Pat? I wish I knew that before. I would not have wasted so much time & effort on this. Now I feel like an Idiot for having done this.

I hope you was grinnin' the whole time you typed that!

If it were about the destination, rather than the journey, we'd all be buying the damned things, eh! :)

Nothing gets the brain working so well as to see someone elses idea, and to start thinking about the ways it could be improved upon, or adapted to ones own situation.

Cheers
Trev

[Cap'n Morgan]

Well I got the forming button inside this thing & managed to pop out a few cups. They are sticking inside my female forming die, so I needed to dig them out with a small screwdriver. I'll either need to get a stronger die spring or I'll need to add a solid pin to push the finished parts out of the die.

Jim,

You could copy the plunger/ejector idea from the tool Kaj made:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=31987

BTW. Smart move making the die concave instead of the punch.

[JIMinPHX]

I don't know how I missed this. I don't know how I got it into my head that gas checks should be 0.010" thick. .30 cal gas checks are more like .016" thick & .22 cal checks are more like .008" thick. I don't have any others to measure.

When the .010" aluminum checks fell off the shanks of my .30 cal boolits, but the .016" thick brass check seemed to fit like a glove, I started measuring things & found that .010" was not enough wall thickness to bring the boolit diameter up to where it needed to be. That's when I found my error in planning.

I also dug around in the McMaster book a little more & found that if I stop calling my copper "sheets" & start calling it "shims" that I can get .015" annealed alloy 110 pure copper. It ain't cheap, but it's about 1/3 the price of commercial checks.

It looks like I'm going back to looking for those beer bottles that AZ Stew told us about. Those things are looking better & better to me all the time.

[JIMinPHX]

Jim,

You could copy the plunger/ejector idea from the tool Kaj made:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=31987


Wow, Pat did it. Kaj did it. I'm way behind the curve here.:roll:

Thanks for the tip off Captain. There are some nice ideas in that design.

I basically had one of two things that I was planning to do for better ejection. The first was to add a small spring loaded piston & use the top of the piston as the bottom of the forming die. This would give me room to use a bigger spring to get more umph. The second idea is more robust. I was going to add a cross pin that pushes up on a center piston under the finished check. The cross pin would hit a stationary block or sleeve when the press was moved to the down position & that would give you the entire force of the press to remove the finished check from the die. I picked up a few springs today, so I'll probably try that route first.

[rebliss]

After seeing Pat's set-up, I have abandoned any misgivings about wanting to create my own punch and forming dies. However, I still may decide I want a separate punch capable of knocking discs out of thicker material.

[JIMinPHX]

Bud bottles work!

BevMo had them, just like Stew said. They ain't cheap @ about $6 for a 4 pack, but hey, for research I'll go the extra mile. ;-) With a diameter of about 2-5/16" & a straight section of about 6", I should get enough material to do about 170 .30 cal checks per bottle. That's less than $0.01 per check including the price of beer, compared to almost $0.04 per check for the factory ones.

The checks look good, except for the screw driver mark where I dug them out of the mold. As soon as I make up an improved ejector, that mark should be a thing of the past. The checks seem to fit well on a Lee 150-grain FP. Both the brass & aluminum checks that I made on my gizmo look to be slightly shorter than factory checks. I had stayed with .375" diameter disks before forming so that I could make my punch out of readily available 3/8" drill rod (W-1). A slightly larger disk diameter would have mimicked the factory checks better, but I'm going to shoot these first & see how they do just the way they are.

The aluminum bottles look to have been made by the same process that is used to make seamless high pressure cylinders for things like scuba tanks & fire extinguishers. It's a real brutal process where they start with a small billet of aluminum & basically just mash it in a big die press to extrude the slug into the shape of the tank body, then they roll form the neck & top. It's kind of amazing to watch.

Anyway, here is a picture of the Lee flat points with factory copper, beer bottle, & brass checks.

[trevj]

If you got a wife in your life, look at the hair care products that she uses. Mousse, particularly, usually comes in an Aluminum pressure vessel, quite a bit thicker than pop/beer cans.

My plan for my version of the forming tool is to have the clearances set up so that it is a one way trip through the die to form, and to have the check spring out a bit on the far side, so it comes off the mandrel on it's return through the die. Seems to work OK on my hacked together test rig on the lathe. Was considering using a die ejector spring, rather than the ejector rod in the primer groove on the press, too.

I ran somewhere close to a thousand blanks out of aluminum flashing last night, while watching a video.
Process was to run a strip of holes down each side of the sheet stock, trim off the holes with a pair of scissors, repeat. 43 holes per side, 3 rows of holes per inch of width of material. Cost, a bit under $2.

Shim stock. Marvelous stuff! Pretty much any thickness you need, though a little pricey compared to some. Nice to have the options to pick from!

Cheers
Trev

[JIMinPHX]

After seeing Pat's set-up, I have abandoned any misgivings about wanting to create my own punch and forming dies.

Where can I get a look at Pat's rig?

[sheepdog]

Is someone building the punches to punch these out or does someone has the schematics to build one yourself?

[JIMinPHX]

Is someone building the punches to punch these out or does someone has the schematics to build one yourself?

I'll post a set of drawings when I get my final version worked out.

[rebliss]

Where can I get a look at Pat's rig?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=31005&page=13

[JIMinPHX]

I got a little lazy tonight & didn't want to do the extra work to make up a proper check ejector just yet, so I tried a few quick & dirty tricks. I shimmed my ejection spring up with a spent rifle primer to give it a little more umph & I smeared the bottom of my stamping material with a little case lube. That reduced the sticking to the point where removing the finished checks from the female die only takes a gentle tug. I'm sure that if I did a little more work, I could get them to jump right out of there by themselves, but for now, this is good enough. I punched out over a hundred checks tonight. If I want to do many more than that, I'm going to need to drink another beer. ;-)

Now I need to shoot some of these things.

[JIMinPHX]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=31005&page=13

I think that mine has a few advantages over his version. Mine does both the cut out & the forming in one step. Changing to a smaller caliber gas check only requires changing two small pieces, not the whole rig. Once I get around to making up the ejector that I have in mind, that task will take care of itself too with no need for the operator to provide any extra motion. The down side to mine is that you need to precut the strips of punch material to between 3/8" & 1/2" wide before you start punching. On either of the other two rigs that I looked at, you can probably just stick any old edge of a metal sheet in the slot & start punching away.

Thanks for the link.

[JIMinPHX]

I wanted to test these things out on the SKS, but all the SKS boolits that I had were already wearing copper checks. I tried prying a few copper checks off, but that left the boolit shanks too small in diameter for the new aluminum check to grab on well. I went to plan B.

I grabbed some 150-grain Lee flat points that I had kicking around & loaded them up for my 30-30. Since I already had some plinking loads sitting on the shelf with copper checks over 8 grains of Unique that I could use as a control group, I duplicated that load with the aluminum checks. The average velocities between the two types of checks only varied by about 4fps. The averages were a little over 1300fps. Extreme individual shot velocity variation from the entire two batches of ammo was less than 50fps. One 5-shot group from the copper & one 5-shot group from the Aluminum are pictured below. Can you tell which is which? The squares are each 1". These were shot at 20-yards from a standing position with no rest & no sling. I found no leading in the barrel. 10 rounds of the aluminum checked boolits were fired last.

[JIMinPHX]

These are the recovered boolits & gas checks.

[JIMinPHX]

I've been wondering about the new Budweiser aluminum "bottles" since I first saw them in a TV ad...
... those who know the homemade gas check business better than I, due to first hand experience, can comment on whether this is a good source...
Comments??
Regards,
Stew

Well, I guess that now that I've gone & done all this, I probably qualify as somewhat "experienced". I still need to try these things at higher speeds to see if the performance keeps up with copper at the high end, but from what I have seen so far, aluminum beer bottles look like a first rate source of gas check material, at least for the moderate velocity loads. I think that all my plinkers will be wearing aluminum butt caps from now on.

Thank you Stew for the tip off. :drinks:

(ya knew that the little beer mug totin' smiley face guys had to come in here somewhere....right? ;-))

[JIMinPHX]

I put a little ejector piston inside the forming cup. Now the finished checks pop right out. It's time for me to start drawing this thing up.

[angus6]

How's the drawning coming :-D

[Slow Elk 45/70]

JIMinPHX, ok, we are waiting with great expectations, and thanx for sharing[smilie=l:

[poisonivie]

The downside is the Bud beer, it is HORRIBLE.

come on now, suck it up and drink. take one for the team.

[JIMinPHX]

Just a quick update on using aluminum for gas checks...

They worked fine in my old 30-30, but they fouled the living daylights out of a rifle with a chrome bore. Apparently, aluminum & chrome don't like each other too well.

I still don't have my drawings done yet. I do have some ideas for some improvements though. I just need to find the time to get back to this project (after I finish a few others).

[Jim_Fleming]

Jim...

What about the abrasiveness of the aluminum gas checks...?

Have you taken that into consideration?

[edsmith]

after about 100,000 rounds you should see some wear.

[7of7]

after about 100,000 rounds you should see some wear.

Seems to me, after 100,000 rounds with anything but pure lead, you will see some wear.. :kidding:

[Jim_Fleming]

Interesting point, after 100,000 you're gonna see and notice a whole lotta wear, everywhere! LMAO!





after about 100,000 rounds you should see some wear.



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