32 cal gas checks? for 30 Super carry?

[Soundguy]

So recently I picked up a handgun in 30 super carry. I love all the other 32 caliber family right up to 327 federal.. so figured I'd give this a try.

Last week I made up some 90gr lrn 32's with a harder than normal bhn ( harder than needed for 32acp.. etc ).

Anyway.. got less than stellar results.. just can't push them fast enough and not lead with this gun. it's a Shield plus and not blowback but a delayed breech.. on the lead.. the pressure falls off too fast.. and never gets high enough imho.

So I gave in and picked up some hornady 100gr xtp since I had data specifically for them.

2nd pic shows my lrn and a factory federal flat nose.. 1st pic is the hornady xtp I will test today.

Anyone know of a 90 or 100gr 32 cal mold that is gas checked? I could try pushing them near jacketed velocities and see if I can get the lead to work...

312377312376

[Outpost75]

I shoot 13.5 BHN alloy of 50-50 linotype and plumbers lead at full velocity in 7.62x25 and .30 M1 carbine with zero leading using 50-50 Alox-beeswax.

You don't say your alloy, but I think your bullets are too hard and maybe too small. No GC should be needed.

Accurate 31-100T is my design for 7.62x25 and .30 Carbine. I load 7 grains of AutoComp in the TT33 for 1400 fps.

312394

[gloob]

Sorry, no help on a mold, but thanks for the pics. TIL 30 Super Carry exists, and it's meant to work at up to 50k psi.


Anyway.. got less than stellar results.. just can't push them fast enough and not lead with this gun. it's a Shield plus and not blowback but a delayed breech.. on the lead.. the pressure falls off too fast.. and never gets high enough imho.
If I got this right, you can't get the gun to cycle without fouling bad. And at lower charges, you don't get fouling, but the gun doesn't cycle (so your bullet is filling the bore; that's ruled out). And if by "delayed breech" you actually mean the browning locking/tilting barrel that is used in most modern pistols, neither pressure nor gas is needed to cycle the gun. Browning mechanism is purely recoil operated. Recoil or bullet momentum is what you'd be lacking, due to the bullets fouling before you have reached the minimum cycling velocity for that particular bullet weight. This would be due to peak pressure so high by this point that it "blows the seal" on your bullets, eroding them in the bore. You can't handle pressures anywhere close to 50k psi with a normal cast bullet.

The M1 is gas operated with a bigger case capacity. So it's possible Outpost can get velocities higher than 30 Super Carry with plain cast bullets, while keeping peak pressure relatively lower, due to that higher case capacity. That doesn't mean it will work in a 30 Super Carry pistol.

Cast load data must be scarce. I'd be trying slower powders, trying to get velocity up while keeping peak pressure down. But this doesn't seem to be a cast-friendly cartridge, and PC or gas checks might be needed no matter what powder you try. On the upside, if it's locked breech, you could potentially use PC or gas checks and not have excess lube smoke. With a blowback, PC is the only way to go if you care about the smoke.

[n.h.schmidt]

Plain base gas checks could be used.They would reduce or stop leading and allow a little more speed. I made and sold a LOT of 9mm/38 plain base gas checks for that purpose. I did make them in 30 cal but they didn't sell very well. 9mm and 45 being more popular

[Soundguy]

I shoot 13.5 BHN alloy of 50-50 linotype and plumbers lead at full velocity in 7.62x25 and .30 M1 carbine with zero leading using 50-50 Alox-beeswax.

You don't say your alloy, but I think your bullets are too hard and maybe too small. No GC should be needed.

The cartridge operates at near 50k psi... My bullets fill the bore fine..its just too spicey for cast lead I think.

[Soundguy]

Sorry, no help on a mold, but thanks for the pics. TIL 30 Super Carry exists, and it's meant to work at up to 50k psi.


If I got this right, you can't get the gun to cycle without fouling bad. And at lower charges, you don't get fouling, but the gun doesn't cycle (so your bullet is filling the bore; that's ruled out). And if by "delayed breech" you actually mean the browning locking/tilting barrel that is used in most modern pistols, neither pressure nor gas is needed to cycle the gun. Browning mechanism is purely recoil operated. Recoil or bullet momentum is what you'd be lacking, due to the bullets fouling before you have reached the minimum cycling velocity for that particular bullet weight. This would be due to peak pressure so high by this point that it "blows the seal" on your bullets, eroding them in the bore. You can't handle pressures anywhere close to 50k psi with a normal cast bullet.

The M1 is gas operated with a bigger case capacity. So it's possible Outpost can get velocities higher than 30 Super Carry with plain cast bullets, while keeping peak pressure relatively lower, due to that higher case capacity. That doesn't mean it will work in a 30 Super Carry pistol.

Cast load data must be scarce. I'd be trying slower powders, trying to get velocity up while keeping peak pressure down. But this doesn't seem to be a cast-friendly cartridge, and PC or gas checks might be needed no matter what powder you try. On the upside, if it's locked breech, you could potentially use PC or gas checks and not have excess lube smoke. With a blowback, PC is the only way to go if you care about the smoke.

Yes..it is a variation on a locked breech system. While not gas dependent..it is time and pressure dependent..and by the time it unlocks.. Lead safe charges have already gone poof and yes..she won't cycle or will stove pipe or short stroke.
To get her to cycle..honestly I had to use jacketed mid level data..and by then..its too hot for lead with no gas check.

For reference..even jacketed bullets won't make her cycle until you hit mid load range data. For instance.. 3gr start..3.5gr max.. 3.3 functions the gun but won't lock the slide back reliably. 3-3.2 did not cycle the gun. 3.4 makes the gun function correctly..so that's at the top end of jacketed data. Imho..not a cast friendly gun.

[gloob]

If 3.5 gr is the max for a 100 grain jacketed, I bet you're using a pretty fast powder, like Titegroup or Bullseye. Is that what you tried with cast?

I'm not sure what cast data you are using, but for jacketed bullets, Hodgdon Reloading Center has data for a pretty large number of much slower powders. The not-so-good: many of the starting loads are higher than 9mm pressure, right off the bat. Several start at around 40k psi.

A quick crosscheck of the slowest powders AND lowest pressure starting charges leaves HS-6 and Accurate #5 as two possible contenders. Using the old standby of jacketed starting data less 10% should keep the gun from having exciting failures due to either excessive pressure or too much slide velocity.

[Soundguy]

I am using tightgroup..and yes..fast..and yes..the pressure data I looked at worried me..starting loads don't work for this gun.. It's not super cast friendly without lots of powders on hand. Alliant powders are hard to find.

[Soundguy]

Ps..i just used a good guess months cast starting load..but..just not compatible..

[Soundguy]

I just looked at the Hodgdon list. Tightgroup is the only powder I have on the lust in any real amount. I have accurate #5..but not much..and it's all I have to load 5.7-28 with..so can't squander too much of it. Hs-6 is on my list because it has shotgun applications I would like to get a bunch of it but with this post covid resource shortage it's so difficult doing load development on new cartridges

[megasupermagnum]

327 Federal is a 45,000 psi cartridge, and I've had no issues with leading in it. I'm sure some of my loads have been up in that 50,000 psi range. I mostly deal in heavier bullets though, so I can't be a direct help.

You are dealing with a pretty serious round, so I think you are well within reason to be using gas check bullets. If you have everything in a row, they will work with plain base, but I say just make it easy on yourself. One of the biggest reason I went to heavier bullets is due to the absence of good lighter bullet designs for my uses. In your case you are using essentially a short 30 carbine, so there should be some options in the 110gr range. A good example is Lee's 309-113f. One of the things so many lighter bullets lack is bearing length. Thankfully with the infinite ability of Accurate molds you could design your own. As of now I do not like any sub 100gr bullet designs for full power 32's, but if I were to try one, I would take Accurate's 31-101C, bring that front driving band up to a full .314", lengthen the front band .030" longer, and change the lube groove to a rounded version.

[Soundguy]

Data for 30 super carry ( really 32 cal ) is thin. Heaviest recommended bullet is 115gr. So far.. Finding 32 cal gas checks and 100-115 gr pre existing molds have been fruitless. On the 327 there is plenty of data..i have had no issues making full bore loads....and don't have to worry about action cycling..this one is a booger.

I do think if I could find a .312/.313 gas check design and checks..or even plain base checks..in 100-125 gr I could make it work. Leading on my test rounds was minimal..really minimal..i just don't really like -any- leading. I've made it a long time making cast loads that don't lead..just trying to keep it that way.

So I may have to get something custom... But the checks may be an issue..

[gloob]

Sages shows 30 caliber PB checks in stock, for bullet diameter 309-313.

https://www.sagesoutdoors.com/30-caliber-plain-base-aluminum-gas-checks/?revpage=2&fullSite=1

But the reviews suggest they need to be opened up a little to even fit 311 bullets!

[megasupermagnum]

The checks are no issue. They are a standard .284" shank. They are 30 caliber checks. Even sizing .314" is no problem as long as you buy .017" thick checks.

If you are ok with 110-115 grain bullets mainly for 30 carbine, then there are options. If you would like, I could send you some of the Lee 309-113-F bullets. Last I recall they drop .313" if not .314" from my mold.

[Soundguy]

I would surely be up to trying a few. I just looked and do have standard hornady 30 cal copper checks as well as sage's 30 cal aluminum plain base checks. Which would you suggest? The plain base? I'd be glad to send you some linotype to cover the trade. I'll pm you.

[megasupermagnum]

For sure use standard .017" copper checks. I'm not a big fan of plain base gas checks. I use both gator and sages checks. I'm not sure if Hornady is .015" or .017" thick

[rintinglen]

A 311-419 or clone thereof aught to cure your problems. NOE advertises it as the 315-84-RF-AT2. Accurate has several designs that should work fine, the 31-100RG, in particular ought to be good for your purposes. You can specify your desired diameter and alloy when you order. My Lyman drops at ~.312 and 90+ grains, is ~95 grains with gas check. I have used them extensively in 30-30 cartridges, as well as 32-20, but I have never used them at 50,000 psi.

[gloob]

With a hard bullet, PB checks are extra finicky to put on straight and consistent. With all ^ these options, yes. Why bother with PB checks? I see Accurate has a HP version of the 31-100RG, as well. I guess pins are usually reversible to also make FP bullets?

Now, what bullet weight should you want for 30 Super Carry? Aside from a performance angle, which you may want to just leave for XTPs, I wonder if lighter or heavier bullets would be easier on the brass by the time the gun cycles. I'd be mindful of primer pockets getting loose over time on these precious cases.

[Soundguy]

I have several hundred cases fortunately.

Energy wise.. 90-100 sounds/feels ideal to me.

[Soundguy]

The noe mold that drops an 84gr flat point..with gas check might hit close to 90..

[gloob]

I'm sure some of my loads have been up in that 50,000 psi range.
I entered the formula from MBC website, and suggested hardness @ 50k psi comes out to a whopping BHN 39.

I use non GC'd 18 BHN for full tilt 357 loads with only minor fouling, myself. So I'm not sure that the formula is all that complete. Hodgdon's jacketed data for the charge suggests 40k psi. Cast seems to affect psi in unpredictable ways, though. Sometimes it goes up; sometimes down.

Just one of many factors is cast bullets are often slightly longer due to the lube grooves, reducing case capacity with the effect of increasing pressure. But that would be more of an effect in a small case. In a roomy 357 case, maybe I'm not getting the full 40k psi. I can't find my Lyman manual to check, so I'm not sure if any of my cast rifle loads even reach 50k psi!

[gloob]

Another factor is the barrel. Pressure data comes from a special barrel with the pressure sensor device on it. A revolver has a gap. I'd guess the gap would reduce the spike that produces peak pressure if that spike occurs after the bullet passes.

[Soundguy]

The data I'm using suggests a jacketed 100gr load at max will be 48300. That's stiff.

I agree that lead slides down the barrel easier than copper, and that likely drops the pressure..however on the flip side..if the bullet occupies more case space that can drive it up. 357 is roomy..or can be with the correct powder.. Even with a condensed powder like tightgroup..thete is precious little free space at max load under the projectile. I loaded some 100gr last night to hornady spec and the COL was a stubby 1.09.. Even though factory federal is loaded to 1.153!!

[Soundguy]

This is going to prove to be one of those cartridges..that in the end..i feel..CAN be loaded with cast... But likely excels as jacketed.

The trend towards high pressure cartridges is continuing... Less case space..shorter magnums.. Gone are the days of the black powder leftovers with massive volume to play with and keep pressures low and down in the shotgun realm.

[BC17A]

Forget the check and start PCing them. I cast and PC the Lee 311-100-2R and push them past 1200FPS from the Shield without issue. I've worked up lots of good Alliant loads if you need data.

https://i.postimg.cc/ncdG91CN/30SC.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[Recycled bullet]

That is an interesting cartridge.

[Soundguy]

Forget the check and start PCing them. I cast and PC the Lee 311-100-2R and push them past 1200FPS from the Shield without issue. I've worked up lots of good Alliant loads if you need data.

https://i.postimg.cc/ncdG91CN/30SC.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

I tried pc and got less than stellar results.

What alliant powders did you work up?

I'd be interested is seeing your powder coated bullets. Have you thought about double insurance and checking and powder coating them?

[mobilemail]

I will only add that RimRock bullets sells a gas checked 115gr .32 bullet. https://rimrockbullets.com/xcart/g-ch-32-115-gr-rnfp-per-100-in-a-plastic-ammo-box.html

[Soundguy]

Well..115gr does have data available... Might check into that route.

[Soundguy]

Ironically..thats a pretty good bullet for 327 federal too. I don't have a mold that heavy..i might just get some of those.

[BC17A]

I tried pc and got less than stellar results.

What alliant powders did you work up?

I'd be interested is seeing your powder coated bullets. Have you thought about double insurance and checking and powder coating them?


PC seems to be all they need. Haven't seen even a trace of leading or PC residue yet. Boolit is about .030" longer than a 100XTP but they don't seat as deep with an OAL of 1.140" compared to the XTP at 1.090". I've worked up loads with Power Pistol, BE-86 and Blue-Dot with CCI 500 primers. All loads cycled the Shield reliably.

Power Pistol 4.3gn @1021fps up to 5.4gn @1204fps.

BE-86 4gn @985fps up to 4.9gn @1193fps.

Blue-Dot 5.1gn @1040fps up to 6.3 @1211fps.


https://i.postimg.cc/xdZXrZyV/lee100.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[Soundguy]

Nice. And blue dot..i at least have on hand. Speaking of COL..i wonder why xtp are seated so short.. Other federal factory are loaded to 1.153...

[Soundguy]

Ps... They sure do look nice. You are an artist.

[Ia.redneck]

I've also had great success with powder coated boolits in a Shield EZ 30 SC. No leading and good accuracy. I think you need a slower powder. I've gotten the Saeco 95gr rn and RCBS 90gr cowboy boolit up to 1200 fps with no leading and good accuracy with Accurate Arms #7. MP makes a mold that's similar to the factory FMJ. It's 314-640-100gn HP it drops 103gn solid and 98gn in hp. Haven't worked up any loads for that one yet. No gas checks needed.

[Soundguy]

powder is still so hard to find...