30-30 150 grain Speer FN -W748 v. H BL-C(2) v. IMR 3031, hunting

[huntinlever]

Just curious on a couple powders I haven't tried, as I can get either. I have IMR 3031 on hand. I can get either of Winchester 748 or Hogdon BL-C(2). This would be my son's Marlin 30-30, Speer 150 grain Hot Cor FN's. I've always loaded the 3031, but have seen good anecdotal info on the other two.

Can't replicate Core-Lokt velocity, but it shoots well at reported 2390 fps (we haven't chrony'ed the factory ammo). Probably looking for somewhere 2250-2300 that shoots well.

Son's 336 is a microgroove, and I won't be casting for the rifle, using only jacketed. Thoughts on any of these?

[recumbent]

3031 shot good in mine, also that was the best powder for cast lead bullets

[FergusonTO35]

Published factory velocity is way optimistic, those Remington loads are probably getting 2150-2250 out of the average 336 or 94. In any event, you will have no trouble making things go dead with published loads using any of these powders. Of those mentioned, I would first try 3031 and then BL-C(2). Most deer I have taken fell to a 150 or 170 from Sierra or Hornady moving around 2000 fps. I find the .30-30 is most accurate at this power level so that is what I stick with. Another thing to remember: most .30-30 bullets will expand faster than spire points intended for the bigger .30's. Push them fast and shoot a deer at close range and the bullet could fragment before it penetrates enough.

[FergusonTO35]

I haven't done a great deal of testing loads for my 30-30. The powder that I have best accuracy so far has been with H335. With BL-C2 not far behind. Both will kill a deer (if I do my part) out to 150 yards or so and that is all I can ask of it. I don't think of the 30-30 as a 200 ayrd plus cartridge but in the right hands it will certainly do the job farther than I will take a shot. james

I'm switching over to H335, got any pet jacketed loads to share? 24 grains under a gas checked 150 or 170 lead slug works great.

[Kosh75287]

W748 worked best with jacketed projectiles. I think you're right that you won't quite develop factory ammunition velocities. I never had a chance to try W748 with cast projectiles. The edge might go to IMR-3031 in that application.

[huntinlever]

Thanks guys, helpful info. Because I'm actually trying out 3031 for a reduced 338 WM load for deer (the 338 is a thirsty beast. If I could get I 4895, I would try that), gives me a chance to get a dedicated pound for my son's 336. Opted this time around for the BL-C(2), though I do have a bit of load development already set with the 3031.

Yeah, won't cast this one, though it deserves it. It being micro-groove, another variable I'm not ready to monkey with for now. Basically aping the Sierra FN's, so these 150 Hot Cor's at tame velocities will (I think), do fine.

[Griff]

My most accurate results have been with Reloader 7 and a 150 grain GCFN @ velocities equal to either Remington or Federal factory ammo. 2nd place was claimed by BL-C(2) with the same bullet. The only jacketed round I've played with is Sierra's 125 grain HP. And best accuracy has been with BL-C(2). All in Winchester 94s.

[stubshaft]

IMR 3031 is what I've been using in my 30/30's since the late 60's.

[725]

My .30-30 likes 30 gr. 3031. How can you forget the 30's! :)

[Larry Gibson]

A test some 12 years back. This was with my 24" barreled M94 AE. Also lists max "Paco Kelly" H335 loads and factory load velocities.

LeveRevoltuion Powder; 30-30 w/150 gr Bullets

Picked up a pound of the new Hodgdon LeveRevolution powder. I wanted to get a feel for this powder before attempting cast bullet loads. The suggested load on teh powder lable said 35.5 gr with the 160 gr FTX bullet. I didn't have any of those but wanted to see how that powder did with 150 gr jacketed. I've a supply of 150 gr Winchester 30-30 PPs so I decided to work up a load with those. I started at 36 gr and worked up to 40 gr.

FLS'd PMC cases were used with WLR primers A LFCD was used to apply the crimp. AOL was 2.53". The rifle used for the test is my M94AE which has a strain gauge attached for psi measurements via the M43 Oehler PBL. The test was ran at TRRC range in University Place, 240 ft ASL with the temp at 48 degrees.

A 5 shot string of factory 160 LeveRevolution 160 gr FTX rounds were fired prior to the test to get a "reference" for velocity and the peak MAP (Maximum Average pressure). The factory ammo ran 2433 fps at 36,800 psi(M43). A previous test of that factory ammunition at 75 degrees gave 2452 fps at 37,800 psi(M43). The SAAMI MAP for the 30-30 is 42,000 psi. Given the temperature this morning I decided that a psi(M43) of 37,000 would be my MAP with the reloads.

Bottom line is 40 gr of LeveRevolution under that 150 gr PP is a 100% density load. It topped out at 37,100 psi(M43) with a velocity of 2551 fps. Accuracy for the 5 shots was 2.1" with the aperture sights. The time/pressure curve was not as steep with considerably more time under the "rise" than with the factory load. The peak psi was reached at mid barrel length (12") with the reload vs 9" with the factory load. Standard factory 150/170 gr jacketed load hit peak psi at 7 - 8" of barrel. Yes I can measure where the peak psi occurs in the barrel.

Some years back after reading Paco Kelly's articles on loading for the newer M94s I developed a Paco 150 gr load using H335 in a similar M94AE with a 24" barrel. Loads were developed by watching primer back out and stopping when the primer was no longer backing out. This indicates there is then sufficient psi to be pushing the case back against the bolt. PO Ackley gives a very good description of this technique in his writings. I stopped 3 gr under what a current loading manual listed as max for that bullet at the time. Velocity was 2527 fps and accuracy was good. That load tested this morning revealed a MAP of 44,400 psi(M43), obviously over SAAMI's MAP for the 30-30.

Bottom line here is that the LeveRevolution Powder is allowing a very real 2550 fps with 150 gr jacketed bullet at factory level psi's below the SAAMI MAP. That's pretty darn good to me and is a worth while powder thus far tested. I'm looking forward to some 311041s over this powder in this M94AE.

Results of 10 shot confirmation string with LeveRevoltion powder and the 150 gr Winchester PP 30-30 bullet. Reminder; testing was done in a 24" barreled M94AE Black Shadow rifle.

Before the results of the test load let's review factory 150 gr loads as tested in this same rifle. They range from 1975 fps with some older REM-UMCs up wards of 2301 fps with some new R-P and Federal 150 gr loads. The psi(M43) MAP of the 2300 fps loads was right at 38,800, pretty much where it should be given the temperature of the day and a commercial chamber/barrel used in testing. The old "Paco Kelly 150 gr load using H335 runs 2450 fps with the psi(M43) MAP at 40,200 with the highest psi at 42,500 psi. This would really be pushing the SAAMI MAP of 42,000 psi on a warmer day. Must be why I list it as a max load in my notes!

The LeveRevoltion load of 40 gr under the 150 gr PP in PMC cases with a WLR primer ran right at 2540 fps with a psi(M43) MAP of 37,000. The 10 shot velocity SD was 22 fps and the ES was 45 fps. The psi(M43) SD was 800 and the ES was 1,800. That is very uniform. Accuracy BTW was 2.4" 10 shot group at 100 yards with my tired old eyes and the aperture M66 rear sit with a post front sight, about the best I can do any more.

So for results we see a big performance gain of 240 fps over the fastest factory 150 gr ammunition and a 100 fps gain over the best reload with normal powder. All with less psi and better internal uniformity. The cost of the powder ($22.99/lb at the most expensive gunstore in town) is very comparable to any other newly manufactured canister powder available today. Certainly an excellent load with jacketed 150 gr bullets or the Hornady 160 gr FTX. I will definitely be trying this powder with 177 gr 311041s in the 30-30 and perhaps there might be some applications in the .308W.

[Ajohns]

Very interesting write up Larry!
Thanks

[FergusonTO35]

Reloader 7 is extinct around here. I'm switching most of my rifles to H335 because it's versatile, relatively inexpensive, and easy to find.

[indian joe]

W748 worked best with jacketed projectiles. I think you're right that you won't quite develop factory ammunition velocities. I never had a chance to try W748 with cast projectiles. The edge might go to IMR-3031 in that application.

dont have a 30/30 anymore - still got a little W748 left over - liked it because of the way it went easy through the measure - used with 150 gr Jacket and 170 grain cast GC -

[Rich/WIS]

FWIW using W748 in 30/06 and 243W had occasional delays in ignition, noticeable when wearing electronic ear muffs. Some were fine but sometimes could hear the firing pin hit. Would not be noticeable with normal hearing protection. Switched to magnum primers and problem went away. Not sure if that would be an issue in a smaller case.

[TNsailorman]

My efforts putting a Skinner rear sight on my 30-30. 312355. 312356
Sorry that the pictures are upside down but I don't know how to correct that.

[OverMax]

Have been a reloader for some time. Do have a model 36 Marlin lever in the above caliber.
I too have experimented with powders and there charging s in this cartridge. " Although I have always preferred the 170 gr boolit weight myself."
I do shoot cast_ jacketed & paper patched in this caliber. Since the 30 wcf is known to be one of the oldest cartridges still marketed. There are a rainbow of powders that can be purposely used. 30-31 748_IMR 4198 BL-C 2 are some best known. As to what I've read. IMR 3031 and BL C2 gave best accuracy.
My suggestion is use what you have on have hand. As for my choice in powders in my 30-30? Imr 4198, only because I have more of it than the few others I could use here.

[popper]

Never tried BLC2 but leverE, 3031, rl7, 4895. 335, varget all work. I liked varget the least. Marlin 30/30 microgroove.

[farmbif]

ive been won over by the LVR powder for several years now. best accuracy for me has been at about maximum load capacity or within a grain or so.
ive also had great experience loading 30-30 with 4198, 8208 and 2015

[indian joe]

FWIW using W748 in 30/06 and 243W had occasional delays in ignition, noticeable when wearing electronic ear muffs. Some were fine but sometimes could hear the firing pin hit. Would not be noticeable with normal hearing protection. Switched to magnum primers and problem went away. Not sure if that would be an issue in a smaller case.

would have thought 760 more appropriate for those ? I used 760 in 22/250 and 303/25 without incident - the 303/25 performed particularly well with it, full case (43.5 grains) and 3150 FPS for a 75 grain hp -- way over book and no sign of problems

[TurnipEaterDown]

ive been won over by the LVR powder for several years now. best accuracy for me has been at about maximum load capacity or within a grain or so.

LeverEvolution does deliver the goods in appropriate cartridges. It does what the manuals indicate (who'd a thunk it...).
35 Remington, 200gr projectile, w/ LVR is a great combination.
I also am using it w/ very satisfactory results in a Savage M99G 300 Savage. Beats any published data for velocity at lower pressure signs than published powders.
7-30 Waters evaluations turned out ho-hum for me though.
Did have a 'oooh, don't do that again' when extrapolating to a 416 Wildcat, so my adventurism with this powder is now limited to things very close to where there is published data.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

LeverEvolution is probably the best powder for the 30-30. I have found BL-C2 and 748 temp sensitive when temps can run from 15* to 80* during hunting season. TAC works well in the 30-30, is available, 'relatively inexpensive' and is not temp sensitive compared to older ball powders, but LeverEvolution is probably the best.

[huntinlever]

Thanks everybody. I've loaded him up for a test with 3031, but have the CL2 and now, the LVR in mind. Larry, thanks in particular for the detailed info. And everyone else for your data points. I have a tendency to grab up new powders "just in case they're better" but have some redundancy in many calibers, so want to work through what I have in stock now. But I am very intrigued by the several mentioned here, now, most especially, the LVR. Price is also attractive.

[three50seven]

My Marlin performs very well with that bullet and 3031.

Sent from my SM-G990U1 using Tapatalk

[JoseBob]

I've been reloading for my 94 for several years now. Tried several powders and like BLC-2 the best. Very accurate in my rifle. However 3031 is very good as well. Groups were just a tad bigger than the BLC-2. I shoot a 150 gr. Flat point and it works great. I did try a 165 gr cast GC RNFP powder coated with Smoke's Bacon Grease and BLC-2. Excellent grouping at 100 yds. with 34 grs of powder. Usual disclaimer. Use at your own risk.

[huntinlever]

LeverEvolution is probably the best powder for the 30-30. I have found BL-C2 and 748 temp sensitive when temps can run from 15* to 80* during hunting season. TAC works well in the 30-30, is available, 'relatively inexpensive' and is not temp sensitive compared to older ball powders, but LeverEvolution is probably the best.

Well, I bit at the LVR and have yet to pick up the BL-C(2), though I know it's a great powder too from all I've been reading. One question I have is on velocity at closer (sub-100 yd) ranges, and this particular bullet. I can see how LVR extends the caliber's potential with Hornady's flex-tip bullets, but wondering if the SNFP like the Hot Cor will suffer breakup, at something like 2500 fps?

[BRatigan]

I've been experimenting with the 30-30 and LVR, 335,748 and 2495. The 2495 with a Speer 150 Hot Core ran at 2137FPS , ES was 23 and SD was 8FPS. The load was 30.5 grains. I don't have a GRT profile for this powder and I think it can squeeze more out of it in my 24 inch M94 Miroku. That load produced .850 groups at 50 yrds. The LVR load of 37 grains produced 2470 FPS under an FTX 160 with an ES of 40 and a SD of 12 FPS over a 10 shot string. The group size was 1.33 inches for the 10 shots. The 335 at 33 grains produced 2458 FPS under a Sierra 150 with ES of 43 and SD of 14 FPS. It grouped .75 inches at 50 yrds. The last powder was Win 748. It produced 2147 FPS under a 160 FTX and at 31.5 grains, ES was 82, SD was 28 FPS. I shot 20 shots and 14 of them went into a ragged hole at 50 yrds. The rest were flyers sort of. Always iron sights and in this case Skinner peeps. All of these loads produce acceptable results for me. Just my 8 cents.

[atr]

I use W748 with 180 gr Cast in my Savage 30-30....good powder!

[Grayone]

Thanks guys, helpful info. Because I'm actually trying out 3031 for a reduced 338 WM load for deer (the 338 is a thirsty beast. If I could get I 4895, I would try that), gives me a chance to get a dedicated pound for my son's 336. Opted this time around for the BL-C(2), though I do have a bit of load development already set with the 3031.

Yeah, won't cast this one, though it deserves it. It being micro-groove, another variable I'm not ready to monkey with for now. Basically aping the Sierra FN's, so these 150 Hot Cor's at tame velocities will (I think), do fine.

I have used up to 30 grains H335 with the 150 gr cast gas checked bullet, powder coated. Dropped back to 28 gr as it was more accurate. Bullet was sized to .309 in a Marlin .30-30. Good load with no leading.

[BB57]

As others have said, I’ve had excellent results with BLC-2. My first hand load in my first Model 94 (a 1956 20” carbine) used BLC-2 and Hornady 150 gr RN bullets and was 5 shot group 1.5 MOA accurate at 100 yards with a tang sight installed.

I now own three pre 64 Model 94 20” carbines in .30-30 and that load is 1.5 MOA accurate I all of them, using vintage tang sights with an average velocity of 2260 fps.

My pre war (1926) 26” Model 94 rifle manages 2 MOA with the same load, but I suspect that’s due to a bore that shows the effects of pre war corrosive primers and inadequate cleaning.

I also have a Model 94 Classic 26” rifle and it’s also a solid 2 MOA rifle with a Williams receiver sight.

In both those 26” barrels I am getting an honest 2400 fps.

In my experience the 2390 fps number on the 150 gr factory ammo box is generated in a 26” barrel and you can expect something around 2250 fps in a 20” barrel.

—-

I like RL7 in the .38-55 but I am within 3 pounds of having to try something else unless RL 7 becomes available soon. Unique also works for black powder velocity loads without the mess in the .38-55 and I may start doing that again.

[huntinlever]

As others have said, I’ve had excellent results with BLC-2. My first hand load in my first Model 94 (a 1956 20” carbine) used BLC-2 and Hornady 150 gr RN bullets and was 5 shot group 1.5 MOA accurate at 100 yards with a tang sight installed.

I now own three pre 64 Model 94 20” carbines in .30-30 and that load is 1.5 MOA accurate I all of them, using vintage tang sights with an average velocity of 2260 fps.

My pre war (1926) 26” Model 94 rifle manages 2 MOA with the same load, but I suspect that’s due to a bore that shows the effects of pre war corrosive primers and inadequate cleaning.

I also have a Model 94 Classic 26” rifle and it’s also a solid 2 MOA rifle with a Williams receiver sight.

In both those 26” barrels I am getting an honest 2400 fps.

In my experience the 2390 fps number on the 150 gr factory ammo box is generated in a 26” barrel and you can expect something around 2250 fps in a 20” barrel.

—-

I like RL7 in the .38-55 but I am within 3 pounds of having to try something else unless RL 7 becomes available soon. Unique also works for black powder velocity loads without the mess in the .38-55 and I may start doing that again.

Thanks for the info. I'm picking up a pound soon.

In terms of CX2 game like whitetail, what are people's opinion on standard cup-and-cores like the Hot Cor, shooting woods distances, and velocity limits, practically speaking, in terms of bullet breakup? How fast is too fast?

[farmbif]

if your wanting to go with a ball powder accurate 2520 gives great performance in quite a few calibers including 30-30 and there is factory load data that is proven for many of the calibers it is good for with cast bullets.

[BRatigan]

I found that 33.8gr Of Win 748 under a Sierra 150 Pro Hunter gave me 2205 fps, SD of 36, but 14 of 20 shots in the same ragged hole at 50 yrds with Skinner peeps on a 24inch Win 94 Sporter. Its accurate and it kills.

[redhawk0]

I've used W748 and IMR3031 with my 30-30 as well. I started with IMR3031 but found a good supply of W748. Did a little experimentation...and found that with the ball powder a LR-Mag primer works better. I believe it is because of the density of the ball powder vs. the stick powder. The hotter primer ignited more efficiently with the ball. Anyway...my groups tightened up with the W748 and LR-Ms. It's all I used now.

redhawk

[curiousgeorge]

I too started with 3031 and never thought I would ever change until I tried WW748. I load it for both the old H&R and the Marlin. I have scopes on both guns, so I'm not bragging on the groups, but 5 shots at 50 yds make a ragged hole. I actually set up a Dillon 550b and can run out either jacket or cast loads pretty quick. I have already sized the brass on an old Rockchucker and trimmed it for length, so just pick the load for jacket or cast and crank them out.

[huntinlever]

I too started with 3031 and never thought I would ever change until I tried WW748. I load it for both the old H&R and the Marlin. I have scopes on both guns, so I'm not bragging on the groups, but 5 shots at 50 yds make a ragged hole. I actually set up a Dillon 550b and can run out either jacket or cast loads pretty quick. I have already sized the brass on an old Rockchucker and trimmed it for length, so just pick the load for jacket or cast and crank them out.

Good info, thanks.

[huntinlever]

if your wanting to go with a ball powder accurate 2520 gives great performance in quite a few calibers including 30-30 and there is factory load data that is proven for many of the calibers it is good for with cast bullets.

Never come across the powder, thanks.

[huntinlever]

I found that 33.8gr Of Win 748 under a Sierra 150 Pro Hunter gave me 2205 fps, SD of 36, but 14 of 20 shots in the same ragged hole at 50 yrds with Skinner peeps on a 24inch Win 94 Sporter. Its accurate and it kills.

Thanks. It brings up something I'd not thought of before. I've had a chrony (again) for a few months and have tended to chase SD's as low as I can (ES's as well), usually 12 or lower is acceptable to me, if coupled with good groups. But for the 30-30, especially if he stays with the peep, I don't anticipate him taking anything longer than 100 yards and almost certainly far less. Little point to worry about the chrony stats, it seems. And I like the LVR, but don't think we need something that fast (I mean, fps, not burn rate). W 748 seems available and thanks on the note re: magnum primers.

I have too many powders in all my rifles, have to say. I may never get to the Re-22 and IMR 4350 I intended for my 338 WM (Finding H 4831 SC is great, and doubly so for its temp. resistance). My son's 30-06 takes up the I 4350 well, but now that I settled on ACC 5744 for my 45-70, IMR 4198, and IMR 3031 (in addition) to the RE 22 are all redundant and may be shelf queens. W 748 and BL-C(2) would only add to my misery. :Fire:

[huntinlever]

I too started with 3031 and never thought I would ever change until I tried WW748. I load it for both the old H&R and the Marlin. I have scopes on both guns, so I'm not bragging on the groups, but 5 shots at 50 yds make a ragged hole. I actually set up a Dillon 550b and can run out either jacket or cast loads pretty quick. I have already sized the brass on an old Rockchucker and trimmed it for length, so just pick the load for jacket or cast and crank them out.

Thanks as well for the add'l thumbs up on the W 748.

[OneShotKill]

I have lever evolution but have not tested it enough to know if it matters. For 3030 I have used 3031 about 45 years and occasionally 748. However, for 30-30 and 45-70 3031 has been near perfect for me. 3031 is the one powder that I have always been able to find during the pandemic and see no reason to change. I was in a Bass Pro today and they had a huge amount of 3031. That said, I will continue to use it for those two calibers. 3031 is also just about perfect for light weight bullets in the 308, 30-06, and 300 Weatherby magnum. Bullets in the 100-130 grain range, fast varmint and fun loads. I use a dozen rifle powders just high on 3031 for 30-30 and 45-70.