S&W with heavy boolits

[44man]

This is what happens with a model 29 if real heavy boolits are shot. Inertia of the cylinder lock will make it stay forward and unlock the cylinder. The hammer will also bounce against the primer when the trigger is still back causing a double strike on the primer.
The unlocking pin in the center of the cylinder will get peened on the front and hang up in the hole so the cylinder gets hard to open.
Even though the gun can take very high pressures, it HATES recoil.

[HCL]

What is real heavy boolits? I shoot Lee 310gr all the time with my 629 and have not had any issues, have never noticed the double strike and I am pretty good about looking at all my fired brass.
Just wondering?
Mike

[leadeye]

This is what happens with a model 29 if real heavy boolits are shot. Inertia of the cylinder lock will make it stay forward and unlock the cylinder. The hammer will also bounce against the transfer bar when the trigger is still back causing a double strike on the primer.
The unlocking pin in the center of the cylinder will get peened on the front and hang up in the hole so the cylinder gets hard to open.
Even though the gun can take very high pressures, it HATES recoil.

My model 29s are 1970s vintage and do the same thing so I have restricted them to 240 grain bullets. I heard somewhere that later 29s were modified somehow to correct this but may be mistaken.

[Shuz]

Did this happen with an earlier "pre-enhancement" 29?

[Dan Cash]

My big Smith's get to beating me too hard before the load beats them too hard. With all that excitement going on, it looks like more than heavy bullets are causing the problem.

When did S&W start using a transfer bar? I have 9 or ten of them and no Transfer bar but mine are older (pre 1980 guns.

[S.R.Custom]

... With all that excitement going on, it looks like more than heavy bullets are causing the problem...

Indeed. It appears that either the cylinder latch is getting hit by a thumb, or there's a problem with the bolt/cylinder notch engagement.

[Lloyd Smale]

I know i had major problems with my 396 unlocking with real heavy loads. Another problem cropped up too. I had problems keeping skin on my hands!!!

[44man]

No, these are not the newer enhanced ones. This happens from 300 to 330 gr boolits with hunting loads, reduced plinking loads with heavy boolits are OK.
Only two things need to be done to cure the problems. The guns need a heavier cylinder lock spring and the unlocking pin needs to be hardened so it does not peen.
A few shots with one 29 peened the pin so the latch had to be hit with a dowel and hammer to open the cylinder.
Several times the cylinder wound up back to the fired case when cocked again.
I have heard stories of frames stretching but have never seen it myself. I have owned 7 model 29's and shot the living crap out of them without a problem. I have no idea what you have to shoot to damage a frame! :confused: I load for accuracy, not velocity, my pressures are not that high but I wanted to show what a heavy boolit can do.
The hammer bounce is no concern because it happens so fast, the fired shell is still under the hammer.

Dan, I said it wrong, it is actually a hammer block that is down when the trigger is back letting the hammer bounce off the primer, sorry, I do that all the time, typing without thinking or having a gun here. Please don't nitpick about it! :drinks: I will fix the original post. (I have Ruger syndrome!)
I only posted because I found the empties my friend shot and what I had to do to fix the pin.

[Shuz]

Have you tried the same heavy boolits in "enhanced" guns?

[leadeye]

I have had that problem with the cylinder being back on the fired case before, another reason to stay with 240s. Shooting RD 265s I could hear a distinct click right after shooting. Those loads have been confined to my Ruger SBH or the Marlin.

[44man]

I have had that problem with the cylinder being back on the fired case before, another reason to stay with 240s. Shooting RD 265s I could hear a distinct click right after shooting. Those loads have been confined to my Ruger SBH or the Marlin.
That is strange, my friend is now shooting the RD without a problem. Could it be a slight difference in the lock spring?
I love the 29, it is a great gun, just needs a little more care. I sure wish I was able to keep a few of them but having to sell guns to buy others cuts down the collection.

[44man]

Have you tried the same heavy boolits in "enhanced" guns?
No, I haven't. Can't afford a new one and I don't have any friends with them. I know S&W addressed the problem.
You must remember that when the 29 came out NOBODY thought about super heavy boolits. 240 gr bullets were thought to be the heaviest for any gun. S&W never over engineered a gun and were just fine for what was available. It was and still is a wonderful revolver if you treat it right.

[leadeye]

That is strange, my friend is now shooting the RD without a problem. Could it be a slight difference in the lock spring?
I love the 29, it is a great gun, just needs a little more care. I sure wish I was able to keep a few of them but having to sell guns to buy others cuts down the collection.


My favorite 29 is my 4" with Pachmayer grips shooting an RCBS 250KT over 10 grains of Unique. Sort of my all purpose outdoors gun in an old Bianchi flap holster. A buddy of mine from this forum has provided me with samples of a lot of other 44 bullets that I am looking at now so I may change to something else in the future.:-D

[cbrick]

44man, to avoid this problem have you considered using an FA revolver?

oh I'm bad, let the fireworks begin. :mrgreen:

Rick

[imashooter2]

I've had the cylinder stop issue on an early 629. Strangely, I experienced my problems with 245 grain 429421 boolits and had no issue with 280 grain 429244 boolits driven much faster.

Never heard about the cylinder latch problem before.

[Lloyd Smale]

thats what i use in them too. I shoot alot of heavy recoiling guns but never did enjoy shooting smiths with heavy loads. there to hard on my hands. The 10 grain of unique load is comfortable and kills deer bear and pigs just fine. If i want more power then that i use a ruger.
My favorite 29 is my 4" with Pachmayer grips shooting an RCBS 250KT over 10 grains of Unique. Sort of my all purpose outdoors gun in an old Bianchi flap holster. A buddy of mine from this forum has provided me with samples of a lot of other 44 bullets that I am looking at now so I may change to something else in the future.:-D

[Lloyd Smale]

ya 44man maybe you should buy a FA!!!!!!! ;) ;) ;) ;) [QUOTE=cbrick;490357]44man, to avoid this problem have you considered using an FA revolver?

[Dan Cash]

44 Man said:
"Dan, I said it wrong, it is actually a hammer block that is down when the trigger is back letting the hammer bounce off the primer, sorry, I do that all the time, typing without thinking or having a gun here. Please don't nitpick about it! I will fix the original post. (I have Ruger syndrome!)" end quote.

That is OK. I was not nit picking, merely asking. S&W has done so many evil things to their guns in the last few years that I thought perhaps they had added a transfer bar. Actually, the early rebound block seemed to provide all the safety one could want but who am I to say?

[44man]

ya 44man maybe you should buy a FA!!!!!!! ;) ;) ;) ;) [quote=cbrick;490357]44man, to avoid this problem have you considered using an FA revolver?
:bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:

[Larry Gibson]

Don't have no stinking "unlatching" problem with my Colt Annaconda;-)

Larry Gibson

[44man]

Don't have no stinking "unlatching" problem with my Colt Annaconda;-)

Larry Gibson
I guess I have to keep this up! :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:

[Larry Gibson]

44man

I just couldn't resist the poke at fun!

Larry Gibson

[44man]

44man

I just couldn't resist the poke at fun!

Larry Gibson
Thank you, better to laugh then argue. :mrgreen: I get myself in enough hot water! :drinks::drinks:

[exile]

I have a 686 and a 629. They are both new models with the frame lock. They both have the transfer bar system. I have not fired heavy for caliber bullets out of either one so I don't know how they will respond to that.

exile

[Irascible]

I guess I just have an extra good 29-2. I've bee shooting 310gr SSK over 18gr of 2400 for years with no problem. Before I went to Alaska 2 years ago I put 100 rounds of that bullet over 21gr of 296 through the gun. I've never had any mechanical problem with the gun. If it wasn't nickle plated I would love it like a new mistress! Now it's only a wife!

[44man]

I guess I just have an extra good 29-2. I've bee shooting 310gr SSK over 18gr of 2400 for years with no problem. Before I went to Alaska 2 years ago I put 100 rounds of that bullet over 21gr of 296 through the gun. I've never had any mechanical problem with the gun. If it wasn't nickle plated I would love it like a new mistress! Now it's only a wife!
They DID improve the guns and you might have the enhanced model.
Just have to remember when the first 29's were made, heavy bullets were 240 gr.
It is a wonderful revolver none the less. I wish I still had a few. I was hitting small targets with the S&W at 200 yd's before revolver shooters knew there WAS 200 yd's!
I have not kept up on the new ones because I just can't afford them.

[Willbird]

IMHO is you need the horsepower that a 300 grain bullet might give you in 44 magnum, you might as well step up from a medium bore to a big bore and use a 45 colt.

Bill

[derek45]

I emailed S&W back in '03 asking if it was OK to shoot 310gr bullets in my 629

they promptly answered "no, only up to 240gr"

[9.3X62AL]

The Model 29/629 series revolvers are at their best with the 240 grain boolits AND run at 1000-1200 FPS. After that point, it's Redhawk time for me. Just like K-frame 357s and 158 grain boolits......1200 FPS is near their upper limit, after that it's time for an L-frame or GP-100.

[TDC]

The Mod. 29 is a fine revolver and IMHO has met every expectation I have ever had for it. I've hunted with 29's for over 35 years and had much success with them... I've often been amazed at the criticisms of this fine revolver. I have many other N frames in other calibers and I'm equally pleased with them.

I've always used boolits no larger the 250 gr and I taken everything but the big bears or moose with a 29. People need to be reminded the "N" frame was designed as a heavy 38/357 frame and was adapted to the 41, 44 and 45LC calibers as an after thought many, many years ago. Is it really any surprise to anyone that later designs by other manufacturers have built guns with stronger frames and are able to digest heavier bullets at higher speeds and pressures?

The 29 with 240/250 grain boolits, with reasonable loads, is capable of killing any big game animal on this continent, and doing so with authority and accuracy. From my experience, when ammo is loaded above reasonable and accurate levels for the 29 they rapidly lose control ability and accuracy in any other manufacturers 44 mag, too...

My feeling is if any load should be required in excess to what a 29 can safely handle it's time to consider an X frame... I appreciate the research and comments 44man offers. His experience has certainly convinced him there is more to a handgun that how much pressure it can stand or how heavy the frame is....

By the way, I'm still using the same Mod. 29-2 I started hunting with over 35 years ago. It's about 50% for blueing and still as tight and smooth as the day I bought it .... never a problem...

JMHO

[Bass Ackward]

Here, try this. Might help understanding model changes and why they took place.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_2_51/ai_n8591513/?tag=content;col1

[44man]

Here, try this. Might help understanding model changes and why they took place.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_2_51/ai_n8591513/?tag=content;col1
Good read Bass!
Whitworth was out yesterday and was shooting factory 300 gr boolits from his 29 and the cylinder rotated a few times on him. He has an older gun.
I will always miss the 29 I bought in 1956. It seen a LOT of use with 240 and 250 gr bullets without a problem and it is probably still going strong today.
Just treat the lady for what she is and she will live forever.

[bhn22]

I couldn't get the link to open, but Taffin says the 44s were finally updated in 1990, effective with the 29-4s. There were other updates starting with 29-3, but the 29-4s had all of the updates for the magnum improvement program. This matches my experiences with a 29-2 that didn't hold up at all. Here's a link to TAFFINS article:

http://www.sixguns.com/range/SmithWesson44Mag.htm

[HeavyMetal]

I've had the experience with the cylinder turning backward, don't know exactly when my 29 was made I bought it used in 1975 for $250 +tax

8 3/8's Nickel, pinned barrel and recessed chambers shoots great but if I push the load over 1300 she warns me by turning backwards.

Gotta love it.

Now have a Super 14 barrel in 44 mag and mean stuff will go in that.

Watched a guy in my IPSC club remove the top 3 chambers and top strap from his Blue 8 3/8's 29. Did it during a match! Not a scratch on him.

Three weeks later he had a new one, in 75 & 76 these were 800 new and you had to fight to get one to boot, asked him how long he'd had it on order.

Told me S&W gave it to him in exchange for his original, destroyed, 29!

Guess S&W was grabbing these things to do R&D work on the "improved" 29.

[Slogg76]

Can one expect the same limitations with 41 magnum chambered Model 57's? I own a 1970's vintage 57 and I was considering having a mold made to drop a 250 grain (or heavier) Keith. So far I have been absolutely happy with 210 grain slugs as they drop deer as fast (actually faster on average) than my previously owned 44 mags, heavy 45 Colts, or 480 Ruger ever did.

[Dale53]

I have an early Model 29 with 8 3/8" barrel. l scoped it early on. I mostly have shot 250 gr Keith bullets (Lyman 429421 but mostly H&G #503's). I have shot a few Lee 310 gr GC RF bullets but don't feel comfortable doing so. I have taken a number of deer with the 250 gr and it will shoot through a deer lengthwise. I took my last deer with the 310 Lee. I just wanted to do it. After I did it, I'll just use the 250 gr Keith in that revolver simply to keep it in good shape until they plant me. My practice load in the 29 is the 250 Keith with 23.0 grs of H110 with a hunting load of 24.0 grs. That will do all that I need with a .44 Magnum (frankly, in both the Smith AND the Ruger).

I have probably ten thousand 250's through my 29 and it is still just as tight as when I got it. I think 44 man has it pretty much NAILED as to their capabilities. I have GREAT affection for the Model 29. It has a wonderful trigger and all in all has done everything I expected it to do.

I have a Ruger Red Hawk. It is an really good revolver but doesn't "warm the cockles of my heart". It is my bad weather and heavy bullet revolver. The trigger, even after being worked on is only "OK". I shoot it well and would never bad mouth it - "It is what it is", but reserve my "affection" for the Model 29.

You know, as I got older, I finally came to realize that "Enough is enough"...

If I were hunting large bear or moose, then the 310 gr bullets in the Ruger would be my pick but otherwise, the 250's for me. For deer, black bear, and hogs - the 250 is "Enough"...

FWIW
Dale53

[TDC]

I have an early Model 29 with 8 3/8" barrel. l scoped it early on. I mostly have shot 250 gr Keith bullets (Lyman 429421 but mostly H&G #503's). I have shot a few Lee 310 gr GC RF bullets but don't feel comfortable doing so. I have taken a number of deer with the 250 gr and it will shoot through a deer lengthwise. I took my last deer with the 310 Lee. I just wanted to do it. After I did it, I'll just use the 250 gr Keith in that revolver simply to keep it in good shape until they plant me. My practice load in the 29 is the 250 Keith with 23.0 grs of H110 with a hunting load of 24.0 grs. That will do all that I need with a .44 Magnum (frankly, in both the Smith AND the Ruger).

I have probably ten thousand 250's through my 29 and it is still just as tight as when I got it. I think 44 man has it pretty much NAILED as to their capabilities. I have GREAT affection for the Model 29. It has a wonderful trigger and all in all has done everything I expected it to do.

I have a Ruger Red Hawk. It is an really good revolver but doesn't "warm the cockles of my heart". It is my bad weather and heavy bullet revolver. The trigger, even after being worked on is only "OK". I shoot it well and would never bad mouth it - "It is what it is", but reserve my "affection" for the Model 29.

You know, as I got older, I finally came to realize that "Enough is enough"...

If I were hunting large bear or moose, then the 310 gr bullets in the Ruger would be my pick but otherwise, the 250's for me. For deer, black bear, and hogs - the 250 is "Enough"...

FWIW
Dale53

Amen!!!

[9.3X62AL]

+1, Dale.

I think Elmer Keith summed it up well when he said (regarding his #429421 boolit in the 44 revolver) that "1200 FPS is all you need".

[Dale53]

I can remember a local deer hunt. I thought I had plenty of my hunting load (250 Keith at 1300 fps chronographed) but when I started to grab my ammo I realized I only had my practice load ready (1200 fps). I took that. I was presented with a buck facing me at 75 yards on the other side of a large briar patch. I shot him standing and it struck within an inch of where I was aiming. It hit him in the neck in line with and just under his spine. That 1200 fps 250 gr Keith went full length of the deer and was NOT recovered. Instant kill, four feet in the air at impact (broken neck). That should have told me all I need to know. It was a nice six point buck of about 200-250 lbs (not uncommon on the corn and bean feed available around here).

Dale53

[dpaqu]

I would think the 329pd would be showing the same problems with 240gr loads or is the cylinder latch and pin not steel?

[jwp475]

I have owned about 8 differrent M-29's over the years. Only one of them unlocked and it did so with 240/250 grain bullets. I now have 2 M-29-2s and they have never unlocked and that includes a 280 grain flat point hard cast at 1390 FPS

[44man]

I would think the 329pd would be showing the same problems with 240gr loads or is the cylinder latch and pin not steel?
The solution for unlocking is just a stronger latch spring. I tried to find one for whitworth's gun but don't have anything. It is only part inertia. I am sure they took care of it with the 329.
The unlocking pin in the center of the cylinder only needed to be made harder to keep it from peening the end.
Small problems, really! It does not detract from a wonderful gun.

[Mal Paso]

I have a 629-6 that the cylinder stopped latching because the center rod was peened. Never shot anything over 250g. Once in a while the cylinder gets hard to unlatch and I have to remember the ejector stem is unscrewing. Start getting misfires check the main spring screw. And check all the screws 'cuz it loves to shoot itself loose. I think that's normal. Some use locktite some would never let it touch their gun.
The hammer quit latching in single action a while back and that got me to do the trigger. Someone before me had used a heavy rebound spring to cover a funky trigger job. I recut the sear on a Power Custom Stand. Kept the Factory Mainspring, replaced the rebound spring with a 12 pounder, and cut myself a new trigger overtravel pin. The trigger is sweet, the bore is like a mirror, and after all that it's part of the family now.
Not seen by me when I bought it, there's gas cutting at the top of the forcing cone. IMO S&Ws mistake for not making the cylinder gap flanges wider. Common enough in the 29 to be a thread in the S&W Forum. Seems to stop or at least mine hasn't gotten worse. I understand the barrel can be set back and I looked for a cylinder with less bevel..... But as long as it keeps shooting as well as it does I pretty much forgot about it. It's a great gun and gets a lot of use.

[Newtire]

This is what happens with a model 29 if real heavy boolits are shot.

I'm not seeing the picture or are there no pictures?

[44man]

I'm not seeing the picture or are there no pictures?
I should have taken pictures but it was such a quick fix I didn't think of it. I just wish I could have found a spring for the latch.